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Now that warp spiders won, LVO I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on general tactics against them. Specifically, a ton of min squads, with BS5 from the aspect formation, effectively fearless (exarch), backed up by jetbikes and Wraithknights.

I play csm, daemons, and marines. But a general tactics thread against them would be more useful I think.

My only trick is to not shoot at them since it's a waste of time and try to charge them with fast units like stormboyz, ork bikers or dark eldar witches. If you use only Space Marines, I would try the same with raptors or bikers. Warp spiders are pretty weak in close combat. Shooting contest are tough against them because they hit very hard and can blink away from danger. My strategy isn't great, but it works.

epronovost wrote:
My only trick is to not shoot at them since it's a waste of time and try to charge them with fast units like stormboyz, ork bikers or dark eldar witches. If you use only Space Marines, I would try the same with raptors or bikers. Warp spiders are pretty weak in close combat. Shooting contest are tough against them because they hit very hard and can blink away from danger. My strategy isn't great, but it works.

I'd like to echo this, but with some qualifications:

-Warp Spiders have Hit And Run. You cannot tarpit them in; 5/6 times they will break away. You will need to hit them with a dedicated melee unit, or at lest a unit with some melee potential.

-Warp Spiders have a short threat range. Their guns have a maximum range of 12 inches. While they can close that distance very quickly and have JSJ, the short range can mean that they can end up caught out of position. Melee units in particular are very effective in creating a bubble where the Warp Spiders will not risk going.

-Shooting at Warp Spiders is situational. Depending on terrain and dice rolls, Flickerjump can be utterly maddening or merely annoying. If there is no source of LoS-blocking terrain nearby, it may be worth taking some shots at the unit.

To reiterate, the best counter to Warp Spiders are fast melee units that can run them down and kill them. Only shoot at Warp Spiders is there are no opportunities for them to completely deny you a shot.

Lobby Reece to nerf them.

Just charge them - a bunch of squishy t3 3+ elfs will go down to any more or less melee squad. Or shoot them with barrage like lobbas or tfc. The fact that they won has more to do with lvo/itc homerules and missions rather than warpspiders themselves. And of course the general.

Budzerker wrote:
Now that warp spiders won, LVO I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on general tactics against them. Specifically, a ton of min squads, with BS5 from the aspect formation, effectively fearless (exarch), backed up by jetbikes and Wraithknights.

I play csm, daemons, and marines. But a general tactics thread against them would be more useful I think.

Catch them between two halves of your forces. So you need units that can be to both ides of them. Obviously all you need are COMPETENT melee troops. Warp Spiders are cool, but they aren't combat monsters really. So even just competent melee troops will do the trick.

Anything that nerfs INIT is useful against them. I think Dark Angels have a bomb or missile that does that.

Also, 5 man squads really wont stand up to the Special weapons spam of th 40K universe that well so if you can get to go second, it would help so that they drop before you do.

Flamers are almost useless against them. Blasts are good though.

Charging, templates and barrage weapons would be quite effective.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Lobby Reece to nerf them.

They did by reducing the jump when targetted to only once a turn at least. Meaning unlike the default you can actually shoot them by setting it up to bait the jump with another weapon before taking them out, but still it's a bit silly.

Long Range Barrage works well, I've managed to get them with Biovores and Lobbas.

2x wyverns costs just over a single 5 man squad with Exarch and should be easily able to wipe them as long as they can't flicker jump out of range and with twin link you have good chances to hit

Spiders have been on top form and present in most tournaments since the last ETC (6+ months).But for the people of Trumpistan here's a quick overview...

Daemons

Vector skirke
Tz. beam physic power
Warp storm
SCREAMER SLASH ATTACK (nb this works better if you summon more screamers.)
Warp speed (Spiders cant hurt I10)
Flying daemon prince/princess
F.hounds (lots of them)

And thats just C.Daemons, I could go on with the list of viable counters.

I've had great success with the Solitaire. He is immune to their weaponry, has no shooting weaponry to allow them to jump away, is fast enough to catch them and ignores all terrain, not to mention he is sure to chump and catch them in combat.

Admittedly he is used as an area denial deterrent, the spiders won't want to come within 19'' of him at any cost, he can't exactly chace them, but he does a good enough job.

@Alex
Harlequins are a good counter to spider spam, but the UK meta is already heavily anti-spider. Pretty much everyone I faced at Cally knew how to deal with them.

I play orks and most lists I plan to use don't actually plan to shoot much if at all... So I footslog with 200+ bodies and laugh at their attempts to kill the boys before they catch them. Literally had a single boy and a nob wipe a unit of 5 warp spiders out in CC...

Actually combat Isnt that bad for Spiders. Even when faced with dedicated combat units, H&R means could end up with the odd 1 or 2 left darting around the board, being ignored and picking up malestrom points.

 iddy00711 wrote:
Actually combat Isnt that bad for Spiders. Even when faced with dedicated combat units, H&R means could end up with the odd 1 or 2 left darting around the board, being ignored and picking up malestrom points.

Im not sure why that makes them "good" in combat". I do obviously know the value since I myself have a Warp Spider Army from 5E I could field. But that doesn't equate to melee greatnss. lol.

My spiders are often killed to small dedicated small arms fire. Sure, I can jump 2d6" the first time, but after that I cannot jump. Unless there is a building or something LoS blocking near, that 2d6 will not stop all small arms fire.
After the jump, they are only T3, 3+ save models -- meaning bolters wound on a 3+.

As others have mentioned a dedicated CC unit will tear them up, but I make it a point to keep my spiders out of range of dedicated CC units, making it hard to catch them unless you have the ability to assault from deep strike.

Small arms fire does the trick though. 20 guard with flashlights can do a number on spiders due to that T3.

 labmouse42 wrote:
My spiders are often killed to small dedicated small arms fire. Sure, I can jump 2d6" the first time, but after that I cannot jump. Unless there is a building or something LoS blocking near, that 2d6 will not stop all small arms fire.
After the jump, they are only T3, 3+ save models -- meaning bolters wound on a 3+.

As others have mentioned a dedicated CC unit will tear them up, but I make it a point to keep my spiders out of range of dedicated CC units, making it hard to catch them unless you have the ability to assault from deep strike.

Small arms fire does the trick though. 20 guard with flashlights can do a number on spiders due to that T3.

Actually, unless you are playing ITC they can RAW unlimited flicker jump. ETC even allows it. Shooting them is generally pointless. But 10 dudes with bolters, and no better targets? Might drop 1 or 2.

I would think Tau and their Smart Missile systems could nullify the advantage of their flickerjumps since they don't need line of sight. Also barrage weapons, as someone else mentioned already.

Anyone suggesting charging them - doesn't quite know how a good player with use them.

The spiders will be positioned 11.5 inches away from your unit, and will shoot. They then run 3.5 inches (or a flat 6' with a battlehost). They'll then jump 2d inches away with a jetpack move. On average, you will have to make a 10 inch charge with whatever fast assault unit you are trying to use.

If part of a battllehost, on average, they will be outside of charge range.

They will be on your flanks, or behind your army. So any movement towards them is movement away from the Jetbikes & whatever that makes up the majority of his army.

Even if you make assault, you best be wiping them all out in that charge. If you don't the remainder will H&R away, and your fast assault unit has just moved a long way in the wrong direction.

So, the best way to play against them...is to try to ignore them and go after the stuff you know you can catch. By all means, fire whatever bolters etc at them that you can. Get him to flickerjump away. If he's 18-24 inches away, he won't be shooting next turn.

Belly wrote:
Anyone suggesting charging them - doesn't quite know how a good player with use them.

The spiders will be positioned 11.5 inches away from your unit, and will shoot. They then run 3.5 inches (or a flat 6' with a battlehost). They'll then jump 2d inches away with a jetpack move. On average, you will have to make a 10 inch charge with whatever fast assault unit you are trying to use.

If part of a battllehost, on average, they will be outside of charge range.

They will be on your flanks, or behind your army. So any movement towards them is movement away from the Jetbikes & whatever that makes up the majority of his army.

Even if you make assault, you best be wiping them all out in that charge. If you don't the remainder will H&R away, and your fast assault unit has just moved a long way in the wrong direction.

So, the best way to play against them...is to try to ignore them and go after the stuff you know you can catch. By all means, fire whatever bolters etc at them that you can. Get him to flickerjump away. If he's 18-24 inches away, he won't be shooting next turn.

Charging them is the correct answer. Or blasts.

I meant good at surviving combat after the first round, with the exarch they autopass leadership tests and they have hit-and-run.

If I recall correctly, they only can make this jump in the shooting phase, which means psychic powers are viable. As a Tyranid player, I've used Psychic scream and Mawlocs (as well as Biovores) to kill them. Mawlocs do not target any units, therefore I can hit them. Biovores do not care if you move as long as youre in range, which is hard to escape. My only other solution has been parking a Flyrant literally right next to them if there's no LoS blockers nearby so he physically can't move far enough away to get out of range.

Belly wrote:
Anyone suggesting charging them - doesn't quite know how a good player with use them.

A table is not of unlimited size.

The two armies also do not consist entirely of one unit of Warp Spiders and the unit they are shooting.

It isn't much more difficult to charge Warp Spiders than it is to charge anything else. Sure, they'll Hit and Run, but a lot of them will die first.

Even an ASM squad is a good CC threat.

This means that Spiders can do the max-range thing on them, but only if they shoot them.

This means, an ASM squad just past your line will take a lot of fire, but the jucier long-range bits are safe.

On a second note, keep track of who needs to Jump.

IIRC, Flickerjump means they can't Warp Jump next turn. That means, they have 6" move plus a 4" on average move (6" in the Warhost). That is a lot of space, but it means that if they get out of range of Lasguns/Boltguns, you are out of range of them.

So:
-Light fast CC units. Wraiths and TWC aren't needed, ASM will do.
-Flicker jumping away isn't always bad for you.
-Small arms, preferably with good range. The Boltgun is actually good for something!

I'm not saying they aren't OP, I'm just saying there are some options that have a chance.

Whirlwind Scorpius with the ignore cover legacy should be a good counter. It shoots 1 + d3 str8 ap3 blasts if it dosnt move. (barrage)

I tried with thunderfire cannon, it's very hit and miss, they still make a decent amount of saves.

I can be good to shoot some cheap weapons at them if the jump will leave them out of position the next turn, but thats very situational.

I love how Warp Spiders are considered OP, yet no one fields jetbikes with Shuriken cannons. Both have str6 guns with AP1/2 on a 6 to wound, both have 3+ armour, yet the bikes are Ob Sec Troops with twice the range (so they don't even need the flickerjump) and 1 more shot per gun (basically a wash since Spiders have BS5). The bikes are also harder to kill due to higher T and not needing to be as close.

If you can kill Windriders (which die as fast as regular Marines) you should be able to kill Spiders even faster. Shooting armies have the range to kill them, Assault armies obliterate them.

The only thing that makes Spiders a good choice is that really good players can use terrain to jump them out of LOS, but honestly there are tons of units that are sub-par that can do amazing things with the right player. Heck, Dark Eldar are an entire army that can go from low-tier to top just by a goo player know how to use them.

 Galef wrote:
I love how Warp Spiders are considered OP, yet no one fields jetbikes with Shuriken cannons. Both have str6 guns with AP1/2 on a 6 to wound, both have 3+ armour, yet the bikes are Ob Sec Troops with twice the range (so they don't even need the flickerjump) and 1 more shot per gun (basically a wash since Spiders have BS5). The bikes are also harder to kill due to higher T and not needing to be as close.

If you can kill Windriders (which die as fast as regular Marines) you should be able to kill Spiders even faster. Shooting armies have the range to kill them, Assault armies obliterate them.

The only thing that makes Spiders a good choice is that really good players can use terrain to jump them out of LOS, but honestly there are tons of units that are sub-par that can do amazing things with the right player. Heck, Dark Eldar are an entire army that can go from low-tier to top just by a goo player know how to use them.

I completely agree with you, I just want to point out that (although no one else has mentioned this as to them being op) that the warp spiders do have the monofilimant that wounds against initiative. The only thing this changes is that the spiders wound easier against the high T models with lower initiative like centurions, and most MC's. Of course as i said i agree with you and the extra shot vs the easier wounding can even out especially when you are just fishing for 6's.

Warp spiders and jet bikes are very different units. The weakness of jet bikes is low surviability while the strength of spiders is high surviability (flickerjump, smaller footprint and deep strike)

Jet bikes with range 36 can move shoot then assault move back, thats what helps keeps them alive. Doing that with shuriken cannons is much more difficult.

While Scatter bikes are amazing, Eldar struggle with alpha strike lists. This is one of the spots where warp spiders shine, as it's hard to alpha them. Making them a very difficult unit to deal with. Against the avg. grav/drop pod list you can deploy your spiders and reserve the rest of your army while they tank the alpha very efficiently.

Anything that allows you to target them without "targetting them" will be a huge boon. Walking barrage weapons over, winging them with blasts. So on and so forth.