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I really like playing Eldar with my friends, and (surprise) usually end up doing really well...but with it come the complaints of them being OP. I've done what I can to make the game more fair, but it seems like even less-quality units - war walkers come to mind - raise complaints of, "OP, OP!"

So, in the 1500-2000 point range, what sort of stuff would you guys run to take a balanced Eldar force? For context, I'm usually playing against SM w/Imperial Knight support. I was thinking of trending toward the Guardian formation(s) as a start.

No more than one *box* of anything aside from Troops helps.

And no WK. That is critical.

What do you usually face? Is it more "7.0" level or "7.5" level?

I might avoid formations altogether if you are trying to tone it down. Most Eldar units are fine as-is. The formation bonuses are just extra bonus power on top of that. And frankly, not that restricting.

What do you have? What do you like to field?

But in general:
Avoid the power units
Don’t spam

Bharring wrote:
No more than one *box* of anything aside from Troops helps.

Oh, that's not a bad idea! I generally like fielding a mix of units as it is, so that would be pretty easy to manage. I have most units, but am missing a couple of the aspects.

I usually do a CAD with farseer, minimum squad sizes of things like rangers, warp spiders, dire avengers, and striking scorpions, then with a fire prism/avatar/single wraithguard squad in a wave serpent as support. (I know the wraithguard are pretty strong, but also one of the few ways to take out heavy armor I have on hand.)

Take Wraithguard on foot?

Slow moving wave of doom. Can still force his hand, but not a free delete card for you anymore. He can play against it. So even if it stomps him, he should have more fun.

I still wouldn't say don't take a transport for the Wraithguard. Just make it a Serpent and you'll be...okay.

My standard Eldar list has none of the following:

D weapons
Wraith constructs of any kind
jetbikes
Psykers
More than one unit of anything, including Troops

I'm still pretty successful with it and opponents are pleased to see none of the commonly griped units on the board at all. They tend to enjoy the game more because they feel it's far more balanced this way. You still have excellent mobility, but it becomes more of a chess match than it otherwise would become.

hes already running rangers, avengers, fire prisms and scorpions.. all subpar units for eldar..

I wouldnt really adjust your list, make your opponent adjust his. sounds like you arent running a ridiculous OTT list to me.

For a more casual but effective force, I advise:
1. No more than one Wraithknight
2. If you use multiple aspect shrines, one should be a melee one (WS5), using one of each Banshees, Scorpions, and Spears.
3. Likewise, the other aspect shrine should be one of each for whatever unit. I might go Hawks, Reapers, and Dragons.
4. Taking multiple wind riders? One squad should be Cannons.

You're in a tough boat that even minor list optimization makes you look a little dickish.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You're in a tough boat that even minor list optimization makes you look a little dickish.

That's honestly how I feel sometimes; like I had a pair of war walkers roll well and eliminate a squad of 5 terminators with their starcannons/lances and got the above-mentioned complaint. Maybe it's more about how I engage the issue with people?

I'd stick to the CAD. I usually do. Sure, the CAD can still be nasty, but CWE really don't need all the Formation benefits.

When I really need to cut back, I spam troops. Having Rangers, Guardians, and DAs all in the list really gives your opponents options and chances to do things.

War Walkers are only not considered OP because Scatter Bikes do it better. Otherwise, a unit of 3 WW, all with SL, puts out a scary amount of shots. You could try running solo WW? With something other than SL?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, I assumed you were reasonably min/maxxed from your earlier posts. But mixed weaponry on WW already?

Run them solo, then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(You should be aiming to win no more than 60% of casual games, IMO. Keep taking worse stuff until you can hover there.)

No, minor optimization is fine. Honestly, I don't know what to tell Eldar players to do with the dickery that is Codex:Tau running around.

Martel732 wrote:
No, minor optimization is fine. Honestly, I don't know what to tell Eldar players to do with the dickery that is Codex:Tau running around.

That's the answer! Spam Tau for a few games and Eldar won't smell nearly as bad...

What Tau list honestly outplays Eldar? Why are you so afraid of Tau, Martel, I need to know! And don't say MCs and GMCs *smirks quietly*

Step 1: Buy IG models
Step 2: use IG rules

Boom, 'fair' "Eldar".

Saythings wrote:
What Tau list honestly outplays Eldar? Why are you so afraid of Tau, Martel, I need to know! And don't say MCs and GMCs *smirks quietly*

Against the types of eldar units considered fair, tau will dominate.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
So, in the 1500-2000 point range, what sort of stuff would you guys run to take a balanced Eldar force? For context, I'm usually playing against SM w/Imperial Knight support. I was thinking of trending toward the Guardian formation(s) as a start.

This is an excellent idea. People like killing models. Even if they lose the game, wiping out 40+ models makes them feel like they accomplished something.

That being said, make sure you don't gimp yourself into constantly losing. If your friends are bringing Imperial Knights, you may need to bring the bad guns too.

Guardians are just bleh.

Nobody will care if you take Avengers though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody will care if you take Avengers though.

Avengers can put out insanely good firepower -- especially if you have them in the avenger shrine or aspect host formation.
Last week I had some guy try and shove a wraithknight down my throat, and I unloaded with 30 avenger shrine avengers into it, shreding it to bits.

Was that insanely lucky? No. It was massive overkill.
(5/6 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 5/54 chance of wounding per shot * 90 shots = 8.33 wounds done.

Even if I did not use the ability to give them all 3 shots per turn, they would normally do 5.56 wounds to the wraithknight by themselves.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nobody will care if you take Avengers though.

Avengers can put out insanely good firepower -- especially if you have them in the avenger shrine or aspect host formation.
Last week I had some guy try and shove a wraithknight down my throat, and I unloaded with 30 avenger shrine avengers into it, shreding it to bits.

Was that insanely lucky? No. It was massive overkill.
(5/6 to hit) * (1/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed FNP) = 5/54 chance of wounding per shot * 90 shots = 8.33 wounds done.

Even if I did not use the ability to give them all 3 shots per turn, they would normally do 5.56 wounds to the wraithknight by themselves.

I think I just had an Eldargasm.

Bladestorm, when you get in range, really hurts anything with a T.

It is why I can easily avoid Scatterbikes. Less cheese, and not much damage.

Rending is the one thing that WK care about. That was a foolish move.

I have used jetbikes as the core for my Eldar since I started them in 4th addition. Now that Scatterbikes are a thing, I am gonna play them. I also like Shuricannon bikes and my WK is my only turn 1 source of anti-AV.

That being said, I also like it when my opponents have fun. So in casual games, I trade out Scatterlasers for Shuricannons and, if my opponent prefers, I trade the WK for 2 units of Hawks and a Night Spinner. This keep allows me to have the tools I need to play competitively, yet have some units that an opponent can easily kill and "stay in the game".

@ HuskyWarrhammer: You are already running Rangers, Scorpions, an Avatar and a Prism. All of these units are good, but not considered very competitive. And it sounds like you field no bikes or WK at all. If your opponents are still having issues with a list like that, their lists must be the really, really bad. Even Dark Eldar (which struggle the most vs CWE) have a decent chance of winning against a list like that. I don't think you have to worry about having a "fair" list, it seems very fair.

Martel732 wrote:
Rending is the one thing that WK care about. That was a foolish move.

Agreed, it was not his best move. There were not many options for him though.

A WK with 2 cannons and 2 scatter lasers makes for an expensive weapons platform. Given that I was running a pale host formation, each avenger had an effective 30" range. (6" move, 6" battle focus, 18" shot), greatly limiting his ability to maneuver his WK without occurring fire.

Sure, he could have just focused on my avengers after that, but there were also spiders and hawks dropping right next to him.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Rending is the one thing that WK care about. That was a foolish move.

Agreed, it was not his best move. There were not many options for him though.

A WK with 2 cannons and 2 scatter lasers makes for an expensive weapons platform against an army of nothing but infantry. Given that I was running a pale host formation, each avenger had an effective 30" range. (6" move, 6" battle focus, 18" shot), greatly limiting his ability to maneuver his WK without occurring fire.

Sure, he could have just focused on my avengers after that, but there were also spiders and hawks dropping right next to him.

A yet, not THAT expensive. And scatterlasers have 36" range on a 12" mover. He should have at least wore down your ability to bladestorm before sending in the WK. The WK is so undercosted that there is no matchup where it is not at least "above average".

Martel732 wrote:
A yet, not THAT expensive. And scatterlasers have 36" range on a 12" mover. He should have at least wore down your ability to bladestorm before sending in the WK. The WK is so undercosted that there is no matchup where it is not at least "above average".

335 points for 2 scatter lasers and 2 ranged D weapons?
I get that it's incredibly durable when kept at long range, but the dakka per point (DPP) of that WK is really lacking against most targets.
In comparison, you could buy over 12 scat bikes for that cost.

In my experience what makes the WK so deadly is it's ability to assault most squads and wipe them out in 1-2 rounds of assault. At least that's how I've been playing it, even when I've brought the cannons.

When it comes to making a "fair" CWE list, the units that Bladestorm is the scariest for - WK, Riptide, etc - aren't the kind of list that usually calls for a "fair" CWE list.

I think it's a combination of factors that make it so good.

I mean, at 300 points a unit should be able to theoretically do damage to whatever it comes across, but it's such a powerful combination of shooting damage potential + S10 I5 AP2 close combat + 12" movement & improved charging (due to jump) + T8, it's hard to counter.

If there were a single reasonably-cheap unit you had to pick to fight for your life, WK would be a top contender.

Per model/unit, sure, it should scare anything. Not per-point though.

30 Dire Avengers plus a naked Exarch is 400pts on the nose.

Bharring wrote:
I'd stick to the CAD. I usually do. Sure, the CAD can still be nasty, but CWE really don't need all the Formation benefits.

When I really need to cut back, I spam troops. Having Rangers, Guardians, and DAs all in the list really gives your opponents options and chances to do things.

War Walkers are only not considered OP because Scatter Bikes do it better. Otherwise, a unit of 3 WW, all with SL, puts out a scary amount of shots. You could try running solo WW? With something other than SL?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, I assumed you were reasonably min/maxxed from your earlier posts. But mixed weaponry on WW already?

Run them solo, then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(You should be aiming to win no more than 60% of casual games, IMO. Keep taking worse stuff until you can hover there.)

With scatter lasers WW are kinda meh but with BL they are seriously undercosted. Plus they have the ability to run and shoot just like infantry...So esnetially JSJ BL. Very strong choice. Nothing in else is bad though. The only unit that is under average is really howling banshees and really only because you can't deliver them.