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Alright, I got nothing better to do right now...

 Sqorgar wrote:
1. Create a Unique Force Not Possible Before - In Warmachine, the factions don't work together, and because of the combo heavy nature of the game, creating suboptimal forces is a great way to have a very unfun gaming experience. Warmachine is a game built around a handful of builds - so much so that tournaments are won based on anticipating which builds you will end up facing.

Slapping a bunch of models together and going up against a well thought out list is a good way to get pasted in competitive warmahordes. I'll give you that you can't bring to the table a list with Striker leading a team of trenchers and winter guard through the Thornwood, controlling both a Cygnarian and Khadoran jack as he leads a team against Cryx. But personally that's a sacrifice I am willing to make if it also stops people bringing sigmarines fighting alongside chaos... freedom to bring uniquely fluffy lists is also fredom to throw fluff out the window.

 Sqorgar wrote:
2. Play Hero Deathmatch - In Warmachine, the casters are extremely unbalanced against each other individually, and if you played casters only, there's a great chance that Butcher or Feora will decimate the other casters before they get a chance to do anything. Retribution even has a caster with zero offensive capabilities.

A goblin wizard vs a bloodthirster hero deathmatch is even more unbalanced than Butcher vs Issyria. Either way if you are playing it people are going to come into the game knowing that is what it is, knowing it won't be a super serious competitive event, and will have to adjust what they bring for the format. I don't see the difference here.

 Sqorgar wrote:
4. Have a Massive Dogfight - Warmachine doesn't really have many flying units, and the game doesn't work without casters (of which, I can only think of two flying casters, both Cryx)

If you want to have a fliers only game of AoS you are going to need to set that up beforehand, collaborate with your opponent, and bring a very limited selection of models. Again if you do those same pre game steps with a Warmachine opponent I don't see what the difference is, unless you are looking at the example as specifically flying things and not "a whole game of only X". If you're saying Warmahordes lacks flying units then yes, it probably doesn't have nearly as many as AoS but that doesn't strike me as a particularly meaningful point in anyone's favor.

 Sqorgar wrote:
5. Collect Lots of Small Forces Rather Than One Big One - Because of the standard point size games, you'll have a minimum of a 25 pt army for each faction, since you can't combine stuff. Even then, most players prefer 50 pts, so you'll probably need a minimum of 50 pts too. It is very, very hard in Warmachine to dabble in multiple factions without committing to a large army. I say this as someone with 5 different WM armies (Cryx, Retribution, Menoth, Khador, Convergence).

Funny thing, I was discussing this with my roommate today. He is a painter who is only particicpating in his first journeyman ever now, but he has a well painted army each for Cryx, Cygnar, Legion, Trolls and Retribution, all well over 25 points. They don't seem much bigger than regular AoS armies and he's found it very easy to collect lots of small forces. I myself have dabbled in a lot but tried to focus on my favourite faction. Point is a 35 point army is all you need, and it is not really any different from a AoS force from what I have seen.

 Sqorgar wrote:
7. Create a New Warscroll - Due to the precarious balance Warmachine enjoys, creating a new unit that doesn't horribly break the game is rather difficult. AoS is a simple game without innate balance, so it is easier to balance around the created unit rather than balancing the unit within the game's very specific framework.

I'll absolutely give you that. You can't make up new units in Warmahordes and expect to take them to a pick up game. I prefer a balanced game though, so that's just going to be personal preference.

 Sqorgar wrote:
9. Play Through the Official Campaign Storyline - I think the last campaign that Warmachine had was in the MK1 Colossals book. Everybody just plays Steamroller.

The last No Quarter had a 3 game campaign set up similar to a Journeyman with smaller armies for two players. It was simplified a little by keeping more complex unit mechanics out of it (I think cavalry wasn't allowed, nor was field artillery), it was very narrative focused too with the results of the last battle effecting the next. Last years seasonal play didn't quite have the narrative focus, but each faction had a solo or three that gained experience and were able to buy new abilities as they leveled up. I'd enjoy seeing both those things in AoS, but I haven't seen battleplans that take the results from one battle and use them to modify the next, nor a real leveling system.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I'm less familiar with Infinity, though I think it does work well with the stated list.

Couple of things about infinity off the top of my head since that's basically all I've been painting recently
1) Lists are generally restricted to factions, but I love that some subfactions will bring in models from other factions as they work together in the fluff (Pan O work closely with Aleph, so two of their sectorials have access to Aleph units)
2) A hero deathmatch would be SO FUN in infinity, and the way the system works it is lethal as hell so anyone can kill anyone, plus it's well balanced so I think if you just said '1 hero up to X points' it would be the best of all three games mentioned for it.
3) Floor tiles for space stations is something I have always wanted to do, especially over an X wing starmap and with airlocks for units with the ability to cross zero gravity terrain to use to spacewalk from one hall to the next and get behind people.
4) They don't have pliers, but a tank (TAG) fight would also be fun as hell.
5) I literally bought a whole army on a whim. Twice. Infinity is the BEST game for collecting lots of small forces. You buy a 5 model starter box because you want to paint three of the models in it. Then you buy a 4 man box because ooooh it's new and shiney and you want to pain them. Then you see two cool single model blisters because hey, what the hell you've been hacing fun collecting these guys. Bam, that's an army.
6) Not really a game that needs a game master, that's what the RPG is for (so hyped for that)
7) Not really a game for making your own model rules, but they do have spec ops models which in non campaign play you take the default amount of XP and use it to guy gear and abilities as needed from the most basic, stock standard generic profile ever, essentially building what you want. I'm sure that could be expanded to a casual game where you take 4 spec ops and use them as your own fluffed up specialists.
8) It is a much more detailed setting than AoS, not a place to put your own empires in, but if that's a good thing or bad is totally subjective.
9) Campaign Paradiso, the entier book dedicated to playing through a narrative campaign
10) Create your own campaign, no more or less doable than AoS or Warmahores I guess, just requires a group willing to do it.

Hey, this is fun. I totally get it now Matt

Personally I prefer Blue Max if I want to play a flying game. It's got a tight set of rules that is simple to learn and quick to play, but hard to master, no points, character progression and narrative.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

So, if I understand correctly, you actually can do it all, but only with varying degrees of success.

If, by varying degrees of success, you include "a complete failure", then yes. There's a huge difference between "I can physically do thing" and "I'm allowed to do thing" (or even "I'm encouraged to do thing"). AoS exists more on the allow/encourage spectrum while WMH is more like "I could physically do this thing, but I'd be breaking the rules, making the game unplayable and unfun, and I'd be completely unable to find an opponent willing to play me - screw it, I'll just play Steamroller... again."

Agreed; you're more likely to be able to do these things in AoS because the player base is more agreeable to homebrewing than Warmachine, which is good as it is out of the box.

Mechanically, there's no difference.

AoS is no more empowering of homebrew than Warmachine, except for the fact some homebrewing is required to get going with AoS; thus the gamer is forced into that mindset.

Plus, some of those ideas are that innovative even in AoS; Hey, lets just play with heroes/flyers. I mean, even White Dwarf had a page of dogfighting rules for 40K when flyers appeared. You're not going to get the same gaming experience as playing a game designed around that sort of thing.

Herzlos wrote:
You can do dogfight too, there just aren't many flying units. Balance is no better or worse than a dogfight in AoS.

According to BattleCollege, Cryx has 4 flying units (2 warcasters, 2 jacks), Retribution has one (the offenseless caster), Circle has 5 (1 caster, 4 beasts), Skorne has 1 (beast), Cyriss has 2 (1 caster, 1 unit), and Legion has EIGHTEEN flying units (mix of casters, beasts, and units). So that's six factions without any flying units at all and one faction with a decent mix of flying units.

In AoS, if two units are unbalanced, you can add additional models to the unit (or remove them). Heck, you can add additional units. You can have a Stormcast army built from Prosecutors, knights, and the Celestant-Prime versus a Death army with Morghasts/spirit hosts and Nagash versus a Chaos army with Archaon, Valkia, plague drones, bloodthirsters, and so on - and you could find a combination of models that created an exciting, balanced game. No rules broken.

WMH has field allowances and the points only apply to a specific number of models (in the rare, rare case that you have a flying unit with more than one model). On the off chance that you could find enough models to make a dogfight worthwhile, you couldn't balance the game - likely at all, but certainly not without fundamentally breaking the rules of WMH.

But if you're playing the mini-game in WMH, you can easily just change the numbers to re-balance too. You're not playing it by the rules by that point anyway.

I am guessing it makes no difference to anyone that I was not comparing AoS to other games, I was just highlighting some things that might be fun to do...

No difference whatsoever, I'm sure


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok sorry that all probably was totally off topic. Some things I enjoy about AoS if you're interested would be:

1) Free rules.
Thank god, it'a about time and a HUGE step forward for GW.

2) Great new khorn models.
Some of them are amazing.

3) New bases.
Another good move I think. I like my ranked fantasy but AoS clearly isn't that, and since it isn't larger round bases and oval cavalry bases are a great idea.

You also can:

1. Simultanously shoot and block with a bow

2. Move three times in a row

3. Field 20 bloodthirsters

4. Paint sigmarines in gold

5. Sponsor Jervis's new yacht

6. Excuse laziest rules writers in a world with your approval

7. Support the awful and arogant company

8. Hasten the axing of armies

9. Not know why you won or lost at all

10. Waste 100+ games you could have played for fun to write and test your own point system

MongooseMatt wrote:
I am guessing it makes no difference to anyone that I was not comparing AoS to other games, I was just highlighting some things that might be fun to do...

You highlighted things to do in AoS, rather things to do. That immediately created the possible impression that these things you listed are special to AoS. That might be a false attribution (to borrow a concept from cognitive psychology) but it is easily understandable.

We then got the attack and defence quad coming in, and the thread turned into the usual backbiting.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That immediately created the possible impression that these things you listed are special to AoS. That might be a false attribution (to borrow a concept from cognitive psychology) but it is easily understandable.

On an AoS-specific board?

Seriously?

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

So, if I understand correctly, you actually can do it all, but only with varying degrees of success.

If, by varying degrees of success, you include "a complete failure", then yes. There's a huge difference between "I can physically do thing" and "I'm allowed to do thing" (or even "I'm encouraged to do thing"). AoS exists more on the allow/encourage spectrum while WMH is more like "I could physically do this thing, but I'd be breaking the rules, making the game unplayable and unfun, and I'd be completely unable to find an opponent willing to play me - screw it, I'll just play Steamroller... again.".

You hit the nail in the head with the "Encouraged" bit - one can assume that, provided you find a willing partner (Gosh that just sounds lewd), you can do anything on that list, regardless of the game, and have a blast at it (there must be flyers and heroes for the required entries, of course). It's just more likely that you will have an utter failure because in the end it's just less likely that you will find a willing partner for such a venture on the playerbase of a game like Warmachine. It's not the game system itself that bars it as you can simply remove the restrictions - it's how the majority of the community enjoys playing it.
I am pretty sure, however, you won't be able to find a player willing to play Hero Deathmatch or Dogfight by means of a club/store Pick up game, just like that. It's something that needs to be agreed to beforehand, which kinda makes those unplayable as pick ups.
AoS actively encourages such unruly gaming by saying to people: "Welp, anything goes! Go on, slap some Nurgle friends to that Tzeentch warband you got there. You know you want it, it's only 99.95$. Nobody will care!"
And, chances are, nobody will.

You don't even need a game at all to do any of these things, just make it all up and use bottle caps. Or even just imagine it completely. This could go on forever...

AoS graciously also lets you never have to play the game to post every day on a forum about the game about why it doesn't work.

MongooseMatt wrote:
I am guessing it makes no difference to anyone that I was not comparing AoS to other games, I was just highlighting some things that might be fun to do...

I'm sorry you're getting a lot of flak here and it must hurt your enthusiasm (even if it wasn't your blog?), but the blog really reads like a paid for article about "10 reasons to buy AoS". It did a lot better than the White Dwarf: Daily version did though.

There are some good things about AoS (i'll have a go at listing them later), but it feels disingenuous to claim generic things are a good thing about AoS. If that makes sense?

MongooseMatt wrote:
On an AoS-specific board?

For better or worse, Dakka at large is mostly a 40k board. It's the lens through which most Dakka posters will evaluate AoS. And considering that AoS undermines fundamental pillars of the 40k-centric "worldview" of miniatures gaming, we aren't talking about rose-colored glasses.

coldgaming wrote:
AoS graciously also lets you never have to play the game to post every day on a forum about the game about why it doesn't work.

Matt, had a read and appreciate you putting your thoughts down.

The smaller forces and mixing things up for each battleplan is what has us playing it more than we'd expected.

If SGS end up doing a AoS'd Warhammer Quest I'd be super happy.

Wow, who'd thought this thread would bring out the saltiness in abundance.

It's a thread about fun things to do in AoS..

..in the AoS section.

Doesn't matter if you can do it in other games or not. One reason could be "to play with miniatures and recreate battles", if you wanted to.

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That immediately created the possible impression that these things you listed are special to AoS. That might be a false attribution (to borrow a concept from cognitive psychology) but it is easily understandable.

On an AoS-specific board?

Seriously?

It's the fact that it is an AoS-specific board that makes the title "blah blah blah for AoS" unnecessary and therefore open to interpretation as a two fingers up to everything that isn't AoS.

You only need to read the results to see that this is true.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

coldgaming wrote:
You don't even need a game at all to do any of these things, just make it all up and use bottle caps. Or even just imagine it completely. This could go on forever...

AoS graciously also lets you never have to play the game to post every day on a forum about the game about why it doesn't work.

Or even more graciously move 100+ models one after another, all precisely measured for tactical advantage.

Which incidentally, is *also* something that isn't unique to AoS.

Let's just accept Matt's at fault because he didn't title the thread "Ten Cool Things to do in the Age of Sigmar that I completely understand are not unique to the system and might even work better in other game systems but as I like Age of Sigmar that makes me an idiot child so I need others to spell out to me how to have fun properly, and I'm terribly sorry for making you read this."

Yeah... I gotta say I did get the implication that it was 'fun things to do in AoS that make AoS different from other games', thus opening it up to the comparisons to other games because the alternative would really feel like clickbait/blatant advertisement.

coldgaming wrote:
You don't even need a game at all to do any of these things, just make it all up and use bottle caps. Or even just imagine it completely. This could go on forever...

AoS graciously also lets you never have to play the game to post every day on a forum about the game about why it doesn't work.

This is what drives me crazy about these posts. Its fine that people like AOS but it really bothers me when the reasons why are things such as
1. Play without points
2. field whatever you want
3. make up your own rules
and so on. You can do this with any game. I could play WHFB, 9th age, KOW, Warmachine, Frostgrave or anything and ignore army composition and points. I can make my own scenarios and ignore rules i don't like. But the reason why i pay someone for their rules and models is because i want a game that i can meet up with a random opponent and all we have to agree on is a point value. I don't want to have a philosophical discussion about what i feel is balanced or what comp pack we should use and what we should do incase one of us begins to win. I play house ruled stuff all the time with my gaming group but when i show up to a store and some random want to mix it up with a game of 9th or WHFB we don't have to spend half an hour discussing what we feel is fare. AOS gives a terrible platform for people to play with when not inside their specific groups and this is a huge let down for a large portion of the community.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Yeah... I gotta say I did get the implication that it was 'fun things to do in AoS that make AoS different from other games', thus opening it up to the comparisons to other games because the alternative would really feel like clickbait/blatant advertisement.

On.
The.
AoS.
Board.
I'm beginning to think that rather than spend my time in the AoS section, I should head over to (say) the WMH section so anytime anyone says anything positive I can explain that WMH is actually a netlisting powergamer cesspool. Because as far as I can figure, negativity is a massively entertaining pastime.

We've been through this point before a number of times, including earlier in this very thread.

People put stuff on boards for people to read. You can't blame people for reading the stuff and maybe not agreeing with it or not liking it and then making comments in response.

Presumably people come to read boards, rather than blogs where the comments are controlled by the author and perhaps only one point of view is presented, because they can read a broad variety of opinion.

RoperPG wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Yeah... I gotta say I did get the implication that it was 'fun things to do in AoS that make AoS different from other games', thus opening it up to the comparisons to other games because the alternative would really feel like clickbait/blatant advertisement.

On.
The.
AoS.
Board.
I'm beginning to think that rather than spend my time in the AoS section, I should head over to (say) the WMH section so anytime anyone says anything positive I can explain that WMH is actually a netlisting powergamer cesspool. Because as far as I can figure, negativity is a massively entertaining pastime.

It's an easy mistake to make. I even thought that was the OP's intent. Additionally, this is a discussion forum. If you want to voice your criticisms of WMH you are free to do so.

I am guessing it makes no difference to anyone that I was not comparing AoS to other games, I was just highlighting some things that might be fun to do...

Wont make a jot of a difference Im afraid.

I really enjoyed the post and some cool ideas, like the monster mash and underground ones.

To those of you that dont like Matts post and ideas, why even bother to post?
Its a post about some cool things you can do in AoS, in an AoS thread, in an AoS subforum for fun.

You dont like AoS? thats cool, kudos. But leave the negativity, rebuttals and counter points at the door. We've seen them ad nauseum and there is no need to drag another positive AoS thread into the tedious quagmire again.

To those championing "its healthy forum debate" pull the other one, we know exactly what it is.

People can post their saltiness, and we can post how fed up we are having to deal with it.

This thread was obviously meant to just be about celebrating some neat things the players of AoS enjoy in the game.

Like RoperPG, I feel like just trolling some other board on here rather than having to sift through all the salt on here.

RoperPG wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Yeah... I gotta say I did get the implication that it was 'fun things to do in AoS that make AoS different from other games', thus opening it up to the comparisons to other games because the alternative would really feel like clickbait/blatant advertisement.

On.
The.
AoS.
Board.
I'm beginning to think that rather than spend my time in the AoS section, I should head over to (say) the WMH section so anytime anyone says anything positive I can explain that WMH is actually a netlisting powergamer cesspool. Because as far as I can figure, negativity is a massively entertaining pastime.

Go ahead. It's a discussion board. People there will either agree with you or tell you why you are wrong. If you don't like reading people's opinions on a topic I suggest you try either the ignore button or not participating in online discussions.

Perhaps a better approach would be to highlight 10 fun things you can do in skirmish games and how to do them in AoS.

If they are the same in other games, it's probably not worth mentioning them, but if they require a different approach in AoS (due to different rule mechanisms) then it's helpful to players to see how it can be done differently.

For example, I am shooting at random here, does AoS have height levels and how would this affect dogfights between flying units?

No, that's great. Y'see I thought it was all about discussing stuff from the baseline of having at least a passing interest in the subject matter.
Knowing that I'm free to go and be a thundering bellend in other sections of the forum I have no interest in for no other reason than the love of pissing on parades is ace, and Dakka really should include that in the brochure, because it's not obvious when you sign up.
I know I don't *have* to do it, but how am I going to score my internet points if I just stay discussing the stuff I'm interested in?

Go ahead. It's a discussion board. People there will either agree with you or tell you why you are wrong. If you don't like reading people's opinions on a topic I suggest you try either the ignore button or not participating in online discussions.

I politely suggest if you dont like the idea of an original post, which has clear demarkation points and boundaries around a games system, you dont post in the thread at all.
And most certainly not to pick apart point by point the ideas becauses you are in direct oppostion to said game system.

See works both ways dosent it?

Y'see I thought it was all about discussing stuff from the baseline of having at least a passing interest in the subject matter.

When "passing interest" is broadly defined as "Pfff AoS sucks", a "discussion" is only going to go so far. I.e. another smorgesboard of moaning and negativity.
Its tedious, unproductive and frankly infuriating.

RoperPG wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Yeah... I gotta say I did get the implication that it was 'fun things to do in AoS that make AoS different from other games', thus opening it up to the comparisons to other games because the alternative would really feel like clickbait/blatant advertisement.

On.
The.
AoS.
Board.
I'm beginning to think that rather than spend my time in the AoS section, I should head over to (say) the WMH section so anytime anyone says anything positive I can explain that WMH is actually a netlisting powergamer cesspool. Because as far as I can figure, negativity is a massively entertaining pastime.

You should have seen this response based on how you se up your list
"1. Create a Unique Force Not Possible Before "
This clearly is a comparison to WHFB and many people liked that armies had to fit the fluff AKA (couldn't have lizardmen fighting along side chaos).
2. "Power gaming is, of course, meaningless in most Age of Sigmar battles, so that is the first barrier to go."
Another stab at people that enjoy balanced games then your stunned they give their opinion in a discussion thread.
3. "This is one I am very guilty of. While playing Fantasy Battle, I managed to accrue around 8,000 points of High Elves and in Warhammer 40,000 I was giving the entire chapter of Dark Angels a serious go.

However, you can approach things differently in Age of Sigmar. There is no requirement to build blocks of 40, 50 or 60 core troops before getting to the good stuff. Instead, just have 10 or 20 ‘core’ troops, add whatever you like in terms of Heroes and special units – and then move on to another force! "
Another comparison to WHFB right in your text so this clearly isn't just a post about AOS when you keep comparing it to WHFB
4. "Above all, remember the Mortal Realms are truly fantastic and mythical, so there is no need to limit yourself to a fantasy version of medieval Europe. We have already seen lakes of boiling blood, floating islands, gravity-and-time warping mini-worlds… This is an area where you can really unleash your imagination. "
Once again implying that the Fantasy version of fluff is inferior to the AOS high fantasy.

It should be clear why some people didn't take your list as just "why i like AOS" when it comes off more of "i like AOS and these are the reasons why other games cant do any of these things"

 Ratius wrote:

Go ahead. It's a discussion board. People there will either agree with you or tell you why you are wrong. If you don't like reading people's opinions on a topic I suggest you try either the ignore button or not participating in online discussions.

I politely suggest if you dont like the idea of an original post, which has clear demarkation points and boundaries around a games system, you dont post in the thread at all.
And most certainly not to pick apart point by point the ideas becauses you are in direct oppostion to said game system.

See works both ways dosent it?

That's not how a discussion board works. People can voice their opinion on a topic whether it is positive or negative. If you feel a post is off topic then alert the mods.

It should be clear why some people didn't take your list as just "why i like AOS" when it comes off more of "i like AOS and these are the reasons why other games cant do any of these things"

I'd suggest thats your negative coloration of the topic since you've referenced WHFB 4 times in your post.
This has nothing to do with WHFB despite you needing it to.
Its about AoS.