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Hey guys, I just started being serious about this hobby but I have been collecting and painting since 6th edition. Well my question is when are we going to be getting another CSM codex? After learning a little more about this game I realize what people were saying about CSM being so weak compared to the other factions. So I googled and saw a lot of conflicting info... two biggest were that we were getting one in Q1 of 2016, then Another saying we wouldn't see one till Q2/3 of 2017... wtf ? is this serious since our codex is piss weak and now old as hell.

Info or comments?
thanks!

Don't quote me on this but I believe that the more reliable rumor sources have stated 2017 at the earliest.

 King Pariah wrote:
Don't quote me on this but I believe that the more reliable rumor sources have stated 2017 at the earliest.

Really? Is it normal for codex in general to be so long between each? I mean knowing GW, they will release 8th edition before this thing then.

CSMs seem to be one of the red-headed step-children as far as GW are concerned. Pretty much every other faction has received a codex release since the last CSM book and some, like SMs, Eldar and Imperial Knights, have had two.By rights, we should be next - but...

yeah this is some bullsh*t I mean damn it wouldn't be bad if we had a rocking super good codex, but it was the worst one of 6th edition.... come on GW get your heads out your arses lol. So do you guys think it will really be summer 2017 before we get a codex?

I think the ideal time for a codex to be released is ~12 months after an edition has dropped.

Transition codexes (those just before/after an edition release) always seem to be designed for a unreleased mid-development version of the game.

Just for reference this is still pretty quick for GW. I remember Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tau all waiting almost a decade for a new book.

urg. I don't doubt it, but it's just crazy it takes that long? I want good formations and stuff.

The Codex Needs a Ground up Rebuilding- Ala Dark Eldar and Grey Knights back in 5th.

That's probably what's taking them so long. It's not like just adding some more Daemon Engines will fix our problem. I'd be all for some more though.

Chaos has a unique problem for Power Armor. More often than Not, People want to Play a Legion instead of a Renegade or Homebrew Warband. But GW keeps building Stuff for Renegades. Because unless you REALLY like Chosen, VotLW, or the Wargear in the Black Legion/CSM books, There is literally no reason not to use Crimson Slaughter rules. That Renegade book is hands down better than the Black Legion or Normal CSM book.

They need to build the CSM book just like the C:SM book. Give us Legion Tactics for the people that want to play LEGIONS. They also need to rework the Marks and Icons, as well as how VotLW works and overall reduce point costs and/or buff the rules on most on our units. AND they need to rebuild most of our model line, since no one in their right mind would buy stuff like Havocs when you could buy the basic CSM box and forgeworld bits to flavor for MUCH less than buying the boxes of Havocs for a Decent squad. My Entire IW Army is just the Basic CSM box with Forgeworld to flavor because most of our models need some serious lovin'

But ALL of that takes way more time than just making two new units for another army that's already good to go and doesn't require wiping out the field and starting over.

They should throw in spawn tide formation with endless respawning spawns so eldar, sm and tau could blast stuff from the table for longer, than just wipe csm turn 1-2.

All those traitor legionaires became spawn oblits and dps over 10k years obviously...

I have also heard winds blow about 2017 being the earliest for a CSM codex on its own.

However, I have also heard rumours that summer 2016 will be a time to look forward to if you're a fan of Tzeentch. Perhaps the rumoured Tzeentch daemonkin will drop and give us something fresh.
And maybe they'll release Nurgle/Slaanesh daemonkin before the eventual CSM codex.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
The Codex Needs a Ground up Rebuilding- Ala Dark Eldar and Grey Knights back in 5th.

That's probably what's taking them so long. It's not like just adding some more Daemon Engines will fix our problem. I'd be all for some more though.

Chaos has a unique problem for Power Armor. More often than Not, People want to Play a Legion instead of a Renegade or Homebrew Warband. But GW keeps building Stuff for Renegades. Because unless you REALLY like Chosen, VotLW, or the Wargear in the Black Legion/CSM books, There is literally no reason not to use Crimson Slaughter rules. That Renegade book is hands down better than the Black Legion or Normal CSM book.

They need to build the CSM book just like the C:SM book. Give us Legion Tactics for the people that want to play LEGIONS. They also need to rework the Marks and Icons, as well as how VotLW works and overall reduce point costs and/or buff the rules on most on our units. AND they need to rebuild most of our model line, since no one in their right mind would buy stuff like Havocs when you could buy the basic CSM box and forgeworld bits to flavor for MUCH less than buying the boxes of Havocs for a Decent squad. My Entire IW Army is just the Basic CSM box with Forgeworld to flavor because most of our models need some serious lovin'

But ALL of that takes way more time than just making two new units for another army that's already good to go and doesn't require wiping out the field and starting over.

I agree, but how many years have they had to already be working on this stuff since 6th edition? But I digress, I completely agree. I am playing Crimson Slaughter because I like the fluff, but that book is a lot better than a lot of the other stuff from the CSM book.

I would like to see some of the traitor legion rules and formations with good stuffs like the SM book. Also you are right, the model range is needing some major love. For havoks I've just used standard chaos marines with heavy bolters and gonna proxy them for auto cannons.

Part of what is taking so long is your entire model line needs a redo.

No, the reason it's taking so long is because Chaos sells. The CSM Tac Squad was still in their list of 2015's best sellers, despite the Codex being wonky and the whole range being widely acknowledged as being out of date.

GW as an entity is lazy, why invest time and money in a range and development if whatever it is you've got out there is already ticking over nicely?

I'd normally advise people to stop buying, but then given their inability to detect why sales may drop off, they'd be just as likely to Squat them if that happened, so we're essentially screwed either way.

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, the reason it's taking so long is because Chaos sells. The CSM Tac Squad was still in their list of 2015's best sellers, despite the Codex being wonky and the whole range being widely acknowledged as being out of date.

GW as an entity is lazy, why invest time and money in a range and development if whatever it is you've got out there is already ticking over nicely?

I'd normally advise people to stop buying, but then given their inability to detect why sales may drop off, they'd be just as likely to Squat them if that happened, so we're essentially screwed either way.

Flawed logics. SM tacticals are bought en masse yet, they redo them now and than.

If books got updates because of slow sales, Sisters would have had three books in two years, and neither Eldar nor Tau would have gotten the updates they did.

Nobody knows why GW does what they do except GW

lol isn't that the truth.

 koooaei wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, the reason it's taking so long is because Chaos sells. The CSM Tac Squad was still in their list of 2015's best sellers, despite the Codex being wonky and the whole range being widely acknowledged as being out of date.

GW as an entity is lazy, why invest time and money in a range and development if whatever it is you've got out there is already ticking over nicely?

I'd normally advise people to stop buying, but then given their inability to detect why sales may drop off, they'd be just as likely to Squat them if that happened, so we're essentially screwed either way.

Flawed logics. SM tacticals are bought en masse yet, they redo them now and than.

No, no, it makes sense. CSM don't get an update because they're popular and sell well anyway. SM get an update because they're popular and GW knows there's demand for them.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Nobody knows why GW does what they do except GW

Pretty much this.

"Model line needs to be redone" and "rules need a lot of work" are excuses often thrown around by some fans, but the truth is, we don't really know. We actually do not know the true reason some armies receive way more attention and care than others.

There are a few clues that seem to point out it has a lot to do with the current studio members' personal tastes. In other words, outside of Space Marines (who as loyalists and top sellers have a guaranteed new book each edition), the rest of the armies are hugely dependent on someone at the studio liking them. As an example, the 3.5 CSM codex happened because Pete Haines cared. After that, no one else has. Another example: Phil Kelly writes the Eldar codices, Phil Kelly really loves his Eldar, and accordingly Eldar have always been one of the top armies in all editions (with the exception of 5th edition, when they still were competent despite receiving no new codex).

This isn't exactly new, though. Squats were, uhm, "squatted" in 3rd edition because nobody at the studio really liked them. Chaos Dwarfs suffered a similar fate in Fantasy (it seems only Rick Priestly cared about them, and he got more and more sidelined from 6th edition onwards).

I don't think we'll see any new CSM codex any soon. In fact I heavily doubt CSM will see any new codex along the course of this edition. At the same time, I don't see 7th edition lasting more than three years, so who knows what may happen in 2017. Careful about what you desire, in any case.

Daemonkin and maybe formations from some campaign are best hopes.

 Draco wrote:
Daemonkin and maybe formations from some campaign are best hopes.

Some people get satisfied with so little these days...

Reliable rumour mongers have said don't expect another demonkine codex, and that CSM needs a complete do over and that's why it was slated to mid 2017.

From what I can suspect, the previous CEO wanted to do a bandaid codex at most for Chaos and let their model line get worse. I believe the new CEO looked at actual financial data and saw that Chaos was still very popular, even after all the neglect they have gotten and decided it was a relatively low engaged area of their market.

Either way this is my educated guess.

Don't worry. In 2017 I'm sure we'll get a campaign supplement with a nice decurion that gives everybody Fear and rerolls on the Chaos Boon table as long as you take the 8 20-man squads of CSM and 2 squads of Possessed. Oh, and Veterans of the Long War! For FREE!

Rules wise, we suffer on two fronts;
1. Ancient model line that hasn't received any new upgrade toys since day 1 of 3rd edition! While everyone else gets new guns, hitty tools, options for their vehicles, etc..., we're still effectively using the exact same basic armoury that we had waaaaaaay back in 1998!!
When everyone else is running around with things like Grav guns, HYMP's, Scat lasers, etc..., while you're stuck with nothing better than Plasma guns & Autocannons, you're going to have a bad time of it.

Also the fact that literally EVERYTHING we had that was unique to us has instead been stripped away, and then passed out like candy to everyone else.


2. A play style that refuses to evolve with newer editions & rules sets.
Like it or not, outside of an IW gunline (which is the game's worst), and Emp's Children (who are more expensive yet crappier versions of 'mini GK's'), our book is still at it's core an assault based army that uses Rhinos as assault boats.
Too bad that hasn't been viable since 2009 or so.

On top of this, GW seems too scared to actually give Chaos good rules, as the vocal outcry from the Loyalist crowd at the conclusion of the old Eye of Terror campaign was rather spectacular to behold!
Chaos won you see. Unfortunately, due to the massive numbers of butt hurt man-children and whiny little boys, GW quickly ret-conned the entire thing because Loyalist players threw the mother of all temper tantrums! How dare us filthy, Chaos scum actually win! Only the "Good Guys" can win of course.
And ever since, we've been punished for daring to actually do what our entire background says we're literally on the verge of doing - wrecking Imperial face and making for Terra itself.



The only 'bright spot' for Chaos right now is either with Forgeworld, (not an option for the majority of players), and Daemons, who Kelly has done an overall excellent job of turning into a respectable, fun, fluffy army that can play a variety of ways.

Hopefully GW has realised it's long held mistake, and will finally give us poor Chaos players our long awaited dues. (and no matter what, Loyalist players will cry foul, because that's what Loyalist players do best! )

The new CEO has been mixed so far for me, as the new direction of GW had some good points (AdMech Armies, Getting Started bundles, and Battle for Vedros) and some horrible down points (most of the new character clampacks, increasingly more expensive single kits, and sloppy rule designed very visibly to sell models).

However the entire line of CSM is basically where the Dark Eldar were before their 5th edition codex. It's gonna take more than just one or two weeks of release for them to catch up, and would probably entail a near-complete overhaul of the infantry range (basically the only thing usable right now are the Raptors. That's it. Even the Terminators are showing their age since you don't have anywhere close to enough equipment for them).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The new CEO has been mixed so far for me, as the new direction of GW had some good points (AdMech Armies, Getting Started bundles, and Battle for Vedros) and some horrible down points (most of the new character clampacks, increasingly more expensive single kits, and sloppy rule designed very visibly to sell models).

However the entire line of CSM is basically where the Dark Eldar were before their 5th edition codex. It's gonna take more than just one or two weeks of release for them to catch up, and would probably entail a near-complete overhaul of the infantry range (basically the only thing usable right now are the Raptors. That's it. Even the Terminators are showing their age since you don't have anywhere close to enough equipment for them).

The Termies themselves still look solid, but as you rightly point out, the kit itself is rank horse dung topped with regurgitated cat puke.
All it really needs is to have the same number of components as the likes of the GK/DW/SW Termie kits, and it'd be golden.

On the bright side, you can use the models and proxy them as Loyalists to get some good rules. That's a positive, right?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
On the bright side, you can use the models and proxy them as Loyalists to get some good rules. That's a positive, right?

Unless you're a Tzeentch nut, who enjoys Summoning & allying in plenty of Daemons...

 koooaei wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
No, the reason it's taking so long is because Chaos sells. The CSM Tac Squad was still in their list of 2015's best sellers, despite the Codex being wonky and the whole range being widely acknowledged as being out of date.

GW as an entity is lazy, why invest time and money in a range and development if whatever it is you've got out there is already ticking over nicely?

I'd normally advise people to stop buying, but then given their inability to detect why sales may drop off, they'd be just as likely to Squat them if that happened, so we're essentially screwed either way.

Flawed logics. SM tacticals are bought en masse yet, they redo them now and than.

When do you think they get redone? I'd wager when the sales start to slump (or there's some sort of cost saving to be had via new tech or whatever, most plastic kits owe their existence to GW's desire to transition from other materials or hybrid kits because once created, HIPS kits have the lowest per unit cost.)

If CSM Tacs have never had a comparable slump, as well as being a comparably old kit that will have little to no pressure on it to recoup much overhead, there's little impetus to upgrade. Sure, they'll know that a new kit will drive an uptick, but that also requires investment in design and production, but as I'm sure Loyalists are still substantially more popular than CSM in terms of overall sales, putting a new hat on a CSM Tac Squad is unlikely to offer the same return as a new Imperial one, but with the exact same investments of time, money and machinery up front.

Besides, while aesthetically the CSM kit does, IMO, really show its age, especially in comparison to how they moved that aesthetic on with DV, and what third parties likes Spellcrow and Evil Craft are doing, in terms of its technical chops it still stacks up quite well, there's a good variety of bits and options, and being plastic and cross compatible makes kitbashes, conversions and reposes as straightforward as it can get.

I have every confidence CSM are on the list, but it's difficult to see them being given a lot of attention when they can do the bare minimum and the stuff still sells.

Another issue with CSM is that GW doesn't seem to know whether or not the CSM we have now should depict the remnants of the original Traitor Legions or freshly-turned Marines. They've tried to shift it to newer Renegade marines, but that results in weird artifacts like Combi-bolters where there should be storm bolters, no Landspeeders in sight (centurions, hunters and stalkers are still "new" enough to not count, Landspeeders have no such excuse) and lack of storm shields. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for these (to represent their rare-ness) but it's very weird that somehow all traitor marines magically lose these pieces of equiment because they turned traitor.

There are issues with both routes; if they're suppose to be the old traitor legions, there's very little room for customization in terms of fluff, which means less appeal as a more unique army. Being new renegades solve that, but runs into another problem; there's absolutely no reason why these "Chaos Marines" should be any different from their loyalist counterparts aside from a few special rules, so that runs into the issue of "printing the same book twice". Neither of which sits well with players so I'm guessing they're still trying to figure out that balancing act.