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.. and for "Work", I mean be playable against a no-formations, non-competitive list.

NOTE: I put this in tactics because more than the list itself, I am eager to discuss and take suggestions about how to make a list heavy on Tzeentch Psykers "work".

I recently acquired old metal Sorcerers of the CSM plus Ahriman, just for painting purpose (I love sorcerers and Psykers in general). The three old models, the new one, the one in the TS unit, is five Psykers plus Ahriman, and there is another chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour to find, in case.
That is a good amount of dice in the Psychic Phase. I was wondering if is possible to use this in some way.

Does make sense to just take Thousand Sons in small units, to accumulate loads of dice for Ahriman?

- Ahriman
- Tzeentch Sorcerer in terminator armor, ML2 <------ not sure about this

- (4Thousand Sons +Sorcerer, Rhino w/ havoc launcher) x5

- 3 Terminators 3 combi-termi, 1 chainfist, MT

- Helldrake

- 2 Obliterators, MT

Is Roughly 1850 pts.

I could keep out the second HQ, and/or 1 squad of TS for smaller game and add one of these:
- Spawn (Gal Vorbak models, represent the mutated TS kept as pets)
- MT Chosen, 5 plasma to infiltrate (I would use the armour of the FW TS, they would represent surviving members of the legion with latent powers, not mutated by the rubric but unable to manifest powers/preferring to use mundane weapons).

What do you think? Fluffy ideas to make it workable? I can re-adapt FW models to match the fluff of the chosen above.

By using them as stand-in Marines or Plague Marines.

The rules are flatout terrible. Ten Vanilla Marines with two Plasma Guns actually do more damage for equal cost of 6 Rubric Marines (and one can argue more durable because of how easy it is to grab cover), and if you want Warp Charges that badly make a new CAD with two Cultists and a Sorcerer. That gives you to OS units and a Sorcerer to fiddle with.

First off, don't worry too much about casual friendly lists, you're playing Thousand Sons, you are the underdog. Just try build lists with the fluff and your dignity intact!
The tough part will be making a list that's fun to use, as thousand son squads aren't mobile or powerful or numerous enough to walk into enemy fire.

Kaiyanwang wrote:

Does make sense to just take Thousand Sons in small units, to accumulate loads of dice for Ahriman?

Not really, no. Consider that a thousand sons squad costs 150 points, has very little offensive firepower(four bolters, yay ap3)- you are essentially paying for a 150 pt sorcerer at mastery level 1, with 5 wounds. That sorcerer may look like a squad of Astartes but you cannot treat it as one, it's too expensive and fragile.
Now in a pinch I have held a backfield objective with a 5 man squad, standing in the open, spread out to tank basilisk hits but a squad of cultists could be doing that better, cheaper, leaving you more points for guns to cover for the fact that you elected to take Thousand Sons.

Kaiyanwang wrote:

- Ahriman
- Tzeentch Sorcerer in terminator armor, ML2 <------ not sure about this

- (4Thousand Sons +Sorcerer, Rhino w/ havoc launcher) x5

- 3 Terminators 3 combi-termi, 1 chainfist, MT

- Helldrake

- 2 Obliterators, MT

Is Roughly 1850 pts.

The sorcerer in Terminator armour is a good choice, however the mark of Tzeentch constrains him to know at least 2 tzeentch powers, of which you will want Doombolt or the flamey one, knowing the Primaris by default.
Consider dropping the MoT and getting him a spell familiar, effectively doubling the effectiveness of warp charge he uses. ML3 can be useful here, as 25pts is a good price to add an extra mastery level to your army, compared with 150 for your troops.

Thousand sons go naturally in rhinos, the havoc launcher can be a useful addition. Remember that you cast witchfires from the hatch, and you'll want to be casting doombolt if you have it and the primaris if you don't, at range. Its not terribly effective, but put Ahriman in the rhino and suddenly you are casting 3 of the same witch fire, plus 1 of every other witchfire he rolled out that hatch.
Sadly this just ensures that the Av11 box will be bumped up to enemy number 1 and it won't be long for the table.

You could perhaps have a shell game, running ahriman from rhino to rhino...

I would say that 5 squads is excessive because Thousand Sons are inefficient (low offensive/defensive ability for points) and you are compounding these inefficiencies by taking lots. Ideally you would take no more than 3 squads, use some of the points saved for nude cultists to sit on objectives and the remainder on scary offensive threats that the enemy cannot ignore.

Terminators make a good bodyguard for the Sorceror, as do Oblits. Their ability to deepstrike onto objectives or next to backfield threats fill a role the thousand sons cannot, as they don't have heavy weapons to reach out at range.
Consider outflanking them safely with Ahriman's warlord trait, walking them on where you want them is a lot nicer than a horrible scatter.

I can't speak about heldrakes, don't use flyers.

Overall consider what fire you are putting downrange with this list- 2 obliterator weapons a turn and 5 havoc launchers. Everything else must close, and if your opponent has brought heavy weapons he will have little incentive to.
I find myself playing very defensively with Thousand Sons, hiding my Rhinos and Sons from enemy fire until my deepstrikers (oblits, termies or mayhem pack) show up and disrupt threats.

having two sorcerers in different areas on the battlefield (rhino and deepstrike) helps, as when one is out of range of the enemy, the other can use his warpcharge.

Kaiyanwang wrote:
I could keep out the second HQ, and/or 1 squad of TS for smaller game and add one of these:
- Spawn (Gal Vorbak models, represent the mutated TS kept as pets)
- MT Chosen, 5 plasma to infiltrate (I would use the armour of the FW TS, they would represent surviving members of the legion with latent powers, not mutated by the rubric but unable to manifest powers/preferring to use mundane weapons).

What do you think? Fluffy ideas to make it workable? I can re-adapt FW models to match the fluff of the chosen above.

Consider a squad of Blood Ravens as your chosen, raptors, havocs or as stock CSM. There's lots of opportunity for modelling a squad of turned Astartes, especially since we know the squad leaders so well.


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A list I have used with varied success. The trick is, if you don't know what your units are going to do, your enemy can't anticipate your actions.

How about running them as crimson slaughter

Opens up The Balestar of Mannon which gives you divination.

Also Prophet of the Voices which gives your sorc the daemon rule which in turn gives you a decentish summoning character.

I'd also spare some points to get a LoC in there and a load of horrors/screamers as allies. Gives you much needed bodies and warpcharge.

I wrote an article on this. It is a little buit older and things have changed but it might be worth the read? I should do an updated one but i think im waiting for a new codex. i could update this one I suppose and repub it. But it can give you my thoughts on them a while ago and it might trigger something.

Cult of Tzeentch

That writeup is terrible.

Rubrics are mathematically still bad against MEQ, and MoN is going to be better in most cases due to avoiding ID and getting wounded less against most weapons you'll actually see.
You have the enthusiasm, but literally none of the logic. You're better off proxying, with Rubrics being a different unit.

If you wanna make the actual T-Sons Rubric Marines work, I'd go with big squads. While the Sorceror is a manditory purchase, you can buffer it out by buying more Rubric Marines.

The sheer volume of fire, I found, actually helps offset their high cost and actually makes them more viable the more you throw into a unit. Still horribly inefficent though, as past 10 you lose the ability to Go Fast with a Rhino and instead have to footslog it (The T-Sons use to at least be good at footslogging because Slow and Purposeful made it so that they are one of the only units that can fire their bolters are full range. Now that that's changed, they can only claim the AP3 bonus). This doesn't make them competitive by any stretch, but it does help out.

If you just want a T-Sons themed army with sorcerors, I'd just buy the basic amount of Thousand Son squads to get your minimum requirement filled, then ally in Daemons for Warp Charge generation, use Sorcerors in Terminator Armor as Obliterators, Necrosphinx (if you can still get them) as Forgefiends, and High Elf Phoenixes as Heldrakes. You basically gotta compensate in other sections of the army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That writeup is terrible.

Rubrics are mathematically still bad against MEQ, and MoN is going to be better in most cases due to avoiding ID and getting wounded less against most weapons you'll actually see.
You have the enthusiasm, but literally none of the logic. You're better off proxying, with Rubrics being a different unit.

The article is about how to use the actual T-Sons AS ACTUAL T-sons. Its not about COMPARING it to anything. Read it in context.

Each of the articles was designed for that reason. Also: I write in a narrative style, so my enthusiasm is to engender pride inthe reader whose army happens to be T-Sons.

You can talk about where it is weaker or stronger, but to actually field an actual T-Sons list in a fluffy true to the purpose manner is what the article is aimed at. So read it in that light and no other.



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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you wanna make the actual T-Sons Rubric Marines work, I'd go with big squads. While the Sorceror is a manditory purchase, you can buffer it out by buying more Rubric Marines.

The sheer volume of fire, I found, actually helps offset their high cost and actually makes them more viable the more you throw into a unit.

That is what I suggested also in the article for the most part

 Jancoran wrote:
I wrote an article on this. It is a little buit older and things have changed but it might be worth the read? I should do an updated one but i think im waiting for a new codex. i could update this one I suppose and repub it. But it can give you my thoughts on them a while ago and it might trigger something.

Cult of Tzeentch

The article is full of misinformation. I appreciate your enthusiasm but it reads like a fluff piece:

you have some of the most devasatating firepower known to 40K and you should probably use it.....
Larger units make sense for Tzeentch....
They don't benefit as much from vehicles.....
They score, they kill Marines like crazy and they are tougher than steel.....

(Spend around 1000 pts on 3 squads of space marines)
This core represents a fire base that would really be the envy of any army. It's also the minimum number of troop choices I'd ever leave home with.....

The Thousand Son situation has improved dramatically since psychic powers are no longer shooting and your squad of ap3 bolters can now fire at a separate target to your sorcerer's ap2 anti-tank/terminator spell.
That doesn't mean that they are suddenly a good choice, or that more is better.

They are exactly as durable as a normal chaos marine against the majority of enemy shooting. The 4+ invuln is useful but it just means that half of low ap wounds will remove a model rather than all.
You cannot just walk into the teeth of the enemy guns, you don't have the numbers for that.
One would think that plinking away with Ap3 bolters at range as you close is a good idea but they'll be plinking back, likely from cover, negating the effectiveness of the ap3 and robbing you of sons to protect your sorcerer.
Rhinos protect us from our largest vulnerability- mass small arms from a numerically superior foe and force the enemy to dedicate heavy weapons to taking out our squads. Meanwhile, the sorceror is casting out of the hatch.
When the rhino pops, you can hide your sons behind the wreck to escape the worst of enemy shooting, or in the case of a small squad- potentially all of it.

You'll need to choose your firefights carefully as thousand sons will not win against an equal points cost of any other troop choice in the game.

Tzeentch armies look and feel like a steam roller moving inexorably forward, remorseless and cruel. Every hammering blow of their Inferno bolters feels like losing for the victim. Each time you tell your opponent how many Vaporized models to remove from your sight, they will be cursing silently and cringing visibly, praying that the pain will stop. But it won't. Ever. Of the wondrous things your master will teach their maddened souls in death, one of them won't be hope...

Ok, 8 bolters and a bolt pistol, in 12 inch range, 19 shots, about 12 hits, that'll be:
8 guardsman vaporised, or 6 marines.
But wait, they saw the headcrests and wisely opted to stay in cover.
Now it's 4 guardsmen or 3 marines vaporised.
Not bad for 272 points worth of shooting. Silent curses and visible cringes all round.

However, if you can corner a marine squad 1 on 1, in the open and get the drop on them, those aren't bad casualties to be inflicting, especially with a psychic power thinning the herd beforehand. The more elite the marines are the better, as long as they don't have stormshields.
You may find that the psychic power is in fact inflicting the majority of the casualties and that the 4 extra rubrics you bought are just 80+ points of luggage.

It's got mobility and when it doesn't need it, it has LOS blockers, plus it is very stout. Objectives that are way over yonder can be deep struck to by obliterators if necessary. which is all the more reason to have a second option on the board pounding away at armor until they show up if that ever became an absolute necessity. it isn't a fast army at all, and that is a concern that can only ever be solved by killing enough enemies and so you will need to be very aggressive when you getr the chances to end a unit. Don't leave remnants here or there that can tie you up at any point.

This is a fair point, and including oblits and other firesupport is essential for an army whose troops may have no way of dealing with vehicles. I'm less concerned with remnants tying sons up as your large squads can deal with a severely reduced squad (if only we had overwatch) that doesn't include a sergeant(you don't want your expensive aspiring sorcerers challenged and isolated from their extra wounds)
A severely reduced remnant is in fact a fine target for a smaller squad's bolters to plink away at.

The compactness of the army means it shouldn't be too hard to get cover or concealment for most units, which can add to durability.

People,

Thank you for your answers, a lot of insightful ideas. I will answer to everyone, step-by-step.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
By using them as stand-in Marines or Plague Marines.

The rules are flatout terrible. Ten Vanilla Marines with two Plasma Guns actually do more damage for equal cost of 6 Rubric Marines (and one can argue more durable because of how easy it is to grab cover), and if you want Warp Charges that badly make a new CAD with two Cultists and a Sorcerer. That gives you to OS units and a Sorcerer to fiddle with.

I agree. I would make a squad of TS cost 100, +20 each marine, and 2 Wounds each. Option for one Salvo 2/4 rending VP 3 heavy bolter for 10 points.
And re-make completely tzeench psy-powers. But this is homebrew territory.

About your point, I see it and somehow agree, but I have back home, to left to a friend of mine, like 21-28 Plague Marines. I always used them in the past and they always worked. If I have blue painted sorceres and rubircs, I try to make them work as such.

 =Angel= wrote:
First off, don't worry too much about casual friendly lists, you're playing Thousand Sons, you are the underdog. Just try build lists with the fluff and your dignity intact!
The tough part will be making a list that's fun to use, as thousand son squads aren't mobile or powerful or numerous enough to walk into enemy fire.

Not really, no. Consider that a thousand sons squad costs 150 points, has very little offensive firepower(four bolters, yay ap3)- you are essentially paying for a 150 pt sorcerer at mastery level 1, with 5 wounds. That sorcerer may look like a squad of Astartes but you cannot treat it as one, it's too expensive and fragile.
Now in a pinch I have held a backfield objective with a 5 man squad, standing in the open, spread out to tank basilisk hits but a squad of cultists could be doing that better, cheaper, leaving you more points for guns to cover for the fact that you elected to take Thousand Sons.

My aim was to use the sorcerer models - I was wondering if a full sorcerer army could work. Still, some cultist could be on the way...

The sorcerer in Terminator armour is a good choice, however the mark of Tzeentch constrains him to know at least 2 tzeentch powers, of which you will want Doombolt or the flamey one, knowing the Primaris by default.
Consider dropping the MoT and getting him a spell familiar, effectively doubling the effectiveness of warp charge he uses. ML3 can be useful here, as 25pts is a good price to add an extra mastery level to your army, compared with 150 for your troops.

This will be done. fulffwise, this will be a student of more esoteric knowledge.

Thousand sons go naturally in rhinos, the havoc launcher can be a useful addition. Remember that you cast witchfires from the hatch, and you'll want to be casting doombolt if you have it and the primaris if you don't, at range. Its not terribly effective, but put Ahriman in the rhino and suddenly you are casting 3 of the same witch fire, plus 1 of every other witchfire he rolled out that hatch.
Sadly this just ensures that the Av11 box will be bumped up to enemy number 1 and it won't be long for the table.
You could perhaps have a shell game, running ahriman from rhino to rhino...

It will be for sure hard-mode play. Maybe for scenarios. I am collectin Eldar psykers as well, I could design something about "GET OUT MY BLACK LIBRARY" "NO"

I would say that 5 squads is excessive because Thousand Sons are inefficient (low offensive/defensive ability for points) and you are compounding these inefficiencies by taking lots. Ideally you would take no more than 3 squads, use some of the points saved for nude cultists to sit on objectives and the remainder on scary offensive threats that the enemy cannot ignore.

Thank you for the advice. I will try to move casters in the HQ slot if possible.

Terminators make a good bodyguard for the Sorceror, as do Oblits. Their ability to deepstrike onto objectives or next to backfield threats fill a role the thousand sons cannot, as they don't have heavy weapons to reach out at range.
Consider outflanking them safely with Ahriman's warlord trait, walking them on where you want them is a lot nicer than a horrible scatter.
I can't speak about heldrakes, don't use flyers.
Overall consider what fire you are putting downrange with this list- 2 obliterator weapons a turn and 5 havoc launchers. Everything else must close, and if your opponent has brought heavy weapons he will have little incentive to.
I find myself playing very defensively with Thousand Sons, hiding my Rhinos and Sons from enemy fire until my deepstrikers (oblits, termies or mayhem pack) show up and disrupt threats.
having two sorcerers in different areas on the battlefield (rhino and deepstrike) helps, as when one is out of range of the enemy, the other can use his warpcharge.

Nice advice. Thanks

A list I have used with varied success. The trick is, if you don't know what your units are going to do, your enemy can't anticipate your actions.

Spoiler:

Ahriman
Terminator Sorcerer +2 Mastery, spell familiar


Chaos terminators - squad of 3


Thousand sons, Rhino
Thousand sons, Rhino
Cultists
CSM- squad of 5


Obliterator
Obliterator
Obliterator


Mayhem Pack
(3x Dreadnoughts, multimeltas- )
Arrive by DS, as a formation, but DS and act individually.
Roll for rage every turn, once for all dreads.

1480 points, 9 warpcharge, 8 deepstriking units, 3 of which have multimeltas and 3 of which have obliterator weapons (multimeltas OR twinlinked meltaguns!). Points left for combiweapons or meltagun for the csm squad.
To expand the army, shove the oblits into one or two squads and add dakka preds or maulerfields, or join the darkside and take FW Plaguehulks, modelled as Tzeentch for ap3 pie playes that ignore cover coming from shrouded AV 13 walkers, cheaper than a Defiler.

The ability to DS is great, as is the ability to not DS and stay on the table, for Oblits and Termies/ sorceror. If you need firepower 1st turn you can put the obliterators in cover and have them plink away. If you can afford to hide, dropping 3 dreads with meltas all over his mission critical vehicles is a great way to silence his guns enough to advance.
You can be aggressive with rhinos, keep them moving forward, using cover where possible to force him to move/close to deal with Ahriman.
You can be defensive with rhinos, reserving them or keeping them hidden/in cover, shielding units with their hulls.

The deepstrike is something I love. It was excellent back then, when CSM had Daemons in the army, without allies. I noticed the mayhem pack time ago, I just am afraid GW will remove it on a whim and I will remain with 3 useless and expensive hellbrutes. Perhaps use chaos daemons?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
How about running them as crimson slaughter

Opens up The Balestar of Mannon which gives you divination.

Also Prophet of the Voices which gives your sorc the daemon rule which in turn gives you a decentish summoning character.

I'd also spare some points to get a LoC in there and a load of horrors/screamers as allies. Gives you much needed bodies and warpcharge.

Prophet of the Voices is a fantastic, fluffy idea. I will do it, at least as allies.

No Idea on how to optimize Tzeentch Daemons, too long passed since I used them last time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
I wrote an article on this. It is a little buit older and things have changed but it might be worth the read? I should do an updated one but i think im waiting for a new codex. i could update this one I suppose and repub it. But it can give you my thoughts on them a while ago and it might trigger something.

Cult of Tzeentch

I will read it, thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That writeup is terrible.

Rubrics are mathematically still bad against MEQ, and MoN is going to be better in most cases due to avoiding ID and getting wounded less against most weapons you'll actually see.
You have the enthusiasm, but literally none of the logic. You're better off proxying, with Rubrics being a different unit.

Again your advice makes a lot of sense, but still i wonder if we can challenge ourselves. If really does not work, pointing out what does not work the most could open a path to good homebrew.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you wanna make the actual T-Sons Rubric Marines work, I'd go with big squads. While the Sorceror is a manditory purchase, you can buffer it out by buying more Rubric Marines.

The sheer volume of fire, I found, actually helps offset their high cost and actually makes them more viable the more you throw into a unit. Still horribly inefficent though, as past 10 you lose the ability to Go Fast with a Rhino and instead have to footslog it (The T-Sons use to at least be good at footslogging because Slow and Purposeful made it so that they are one of the only units that can fire their bolters are full range. Now that that's changed, they can only claim the AP3 bonus). This doesn't make them competitive by any stretch, but it does help out.

If you just want a T-Sons themed army with sorcerors, I'd just buy the basic amount of Thousand Son squads to get your minimum requirement filled, then ally in Daemons for Warp Charge generation, use Sorcerors in Terminator Armor as Obliterators, Necrosphinx (if you can still get them) as Forgefiends, and High Elf Phoenixes as Heldrakes. You basically gotta compensate in other sections of the army.

I will have to try these bigger squads then. The idea was to generate warp charges and shoot here and there if the chance and the powers rolled allow it, but I have to work a way to fill HQ slots. with stuff I hate like multiple CAD and allies (albeit I do not mind ally CSM with Daemons, when I started the CSM and Daemons were the same army!)

I see such conversion here and elsewhere. The egyptian theme of TS is very pleasant and exotic compared to normal CSM.
I could otherwise use Gal Vorbak/spawns and possessed in red armor to show the remnants of the mutated legionnaires. Because Possessed Marines would be the strong part of the army list, I guess
(the Crimson Slaughter ones are slightly better so putting all the advice here together I can work on something. Thank you people you are great!).

Is super hard mode, I see. I have to work on it very carefully. Of course, GW could have helped allowing overwatch when the Sorcerer is in the squad. I do not understand if Phil Kelly did not care, or they rushed the codex forcing Kelly to do not think twice stuff. Or Kelly did not want the CSM being too dangerous for his Eldar. I am more eager to think it's some management thing, with them rushing for 6th a codex drafted for 5th edition just because of Dark Vengeance.


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 =Angel= wrote:

Consider a squad of Blood Ravens as your chosen, raptors, havocs or as stock CSM. There's lots of opportunity for modelling a squad of turned Astartes, especially since we know the squad leaders so well.

I was thinking about intact remnants of the legion, but this is even cooler. Some Blood Ravens find old Thousand Sons armour (empty, pre-heresy) and an investigation triggers uncomfortable truths. They refuse and fight back at first, but curiosity or something in the blood make them enter in contact with Chaos and ultimately fight with Ahriman . 5 chosen with plasma with the FW TS armor would be in truth the Blood Ravens that recovered such armours. An ironic eco to the facts of the heresy.

On a different line, as said, I would paint red some modified possessed. Perhaps with more plastic wings and pistols/melta to count as raptors, and add units to the deepstrike strategy.

GW really does not want my money. If I had a decent (DECENT, not strong) list to built, I would have bought everything from FW and GW in block

I think that you can still do semi-fine running t-sons in small squads in rhinos with force axe sorcs + combi-termies and oblis. MoT is somewhat fine for termies. MoN is usually better for oblis but who knows, maybe it's gona save them against a couple more grav or plazma shots.

Also, if you're not opposed to running daemon engines or unmarked stuff, you can helpthe list with a maulerfiend or cultists.

I'd suggest against 2-d sorc. Better get more termies or oblis.

Since FW seems to be an option, have you considered mixing with renegades? They would be fluffy since the TSons used to have spireguard until they went and fed them to the space puppies. But I could still see them using the odd contingent of renegade guard.

Roknar wrote:
Since FW seems to be an option, have you considered mixing with renegades? They would be fluffy since the TSons used to have spireguard until they went and fed them to the space puppies. But I could still see them using the odd contingent of renegade guard.

Plus it's a good way to get lots of spawn and some cheap psykers, if you are planning on playing the warp charge game.
Renegades & Heretics spawn are supposed to be good.
You can have a big cheap blob squad of humans/mutants as meatshields for Ahriman.
The covenant of Tzeentch allows you to snapfire at BS5 which is native BS for most renegades units, BS5 auto/lascannons can take down fliers.

I've been toying with this idea myself.

 =Angel= wrote:


The article is full of misinformation..

It isn't.

It is, seeing you labeled the Soulblaze banner as a way of making them excellent horde killers.

D3 S4 hits are going to wipe hordes like no tomorrow. xD

OH NO! You killed 0,83 Boyz! How will they ever last against you!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is, seeing you labeled the Soulblaze banner as a way of making them excellent horde killers.

Your OPINION of an OPINION isn't a fact. Lol. Give it a rest Slayer-Fan.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
D3 S4 hits are going to wipe hordes like no tomorrow. xD

OH NO! You killed 0,83 Boyz! How will they ever last against you!

Except when it kills three. Repeatedly. And it is going off on multiple units.

if you set five units on fire which you can easily do, that could be an extra 10 hits a turn! who knows. But you really should consider that. The totality of the effect is quite good and most of the Tzeentch force can do ti for free basically.

What about demons? What's the best with them?

which Daemons? We actually have to ask now.

 Jancoran wrote:


Except when it kills three. Repeatedly. And it is going off on multiple units.

if you set five units on fire which you can easily do, that could be an extra 10 hits a turn! who knows. But you really should consider that. The totality of the effect is quite good and most of the Tzeentch force can do ti for free basically.

In order for your Soul Blaze to kill three boyz, it first has to not fizzle (50% chance), then roll 3 hits, then all 3 hits wound, then no wounds are saved.

Given that the odds for his happening is less than 7%, I don't think you should count on an outcome that you will only see every 14th time you successfully inflict Soul Blaze to begin with - yes, it may be more, but it may also equally be less.

 Jancoran wrote:
which Daemons? We actually have to ask now.

You are perfectly right, my question was terribly generic. What to do if

1) as suggested by some, I summon Tzeentch Daemons with Crimson Slaughter. Which models, how to do it cleverly etc..

2) In case I choose Tzeentch Daemon Allies, how much i should invest (just small units, or "Lord of change or go home").

I ask before in case of (2), this is already a point starved army with overcosted units, but perhaps contribute to the deepstrikes madness could be cool...

I take it then that renegades are off the table? lol

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Except when it kills three. Repeatedly. And it is going off on multiple units.

if you set five units on fire which you can easily do, that could be an extra 10 hits a turn! who knows. But you really should consider that. The totality of the effect is quite good and most of the Tzeentch force can do ti for free basically.

In order for your Soul Blaze to kill three boyz, it first has to not fizzle (50% chance), then roll 3 hits, then all 3 hits wound, then no wounds are saved.

Given that the odds for his happening is less than 7%, I don't think you should count on an outcome that you will only see every 14th time you successfully inflict Soul Blaze to begin with - yes, it may be more, but it may also equally be less.

THANK you.
If that doesn't prove Jancoran blatantly ignores math, nothing will.

If you want to go for a Warp Charge engine, Tzeentch Daemons are both a fluffy choice and the perfect one. Horrors generate Warp Charges like crazy, especially in big squads, and you can summon more of with with the horrors themselves.

Roknar wrote:
I take it then that renegades are off the table? lol

absolutely not. The idea is fantastic because

1) the models are interesting. I mean look at this guy (the one that clearly "hears voices"). Best Psyker ever. Go home, Eldrad
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-IT/Renegade-Rogue-Psykers

2) as suggested, one can add up cheap dice

is just that I know the guard better than demons now, so in case of renegades I am not lost If I decide to take a detachment. This is why I asked about demons more in specific

If you have some specific suggestion, is more than welcome! Thank you!

BTW, thank you again people, this thread is a crucible of good ideas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
I think that you can still do semi-fine running t-sons in small squads in rhinos with force axe sorcs + combi-termies and oblis. MoT is somewhat fine for termies. MoN is usually better for oblis but who knows, maybe it's gona save them against a couple more grav or plazma shots.

Also, if you're not opposed to running daemon engines or unmarked stuff, you can helpthe list with a maulerfiend or cultists.

I'd suggest against 2-d sorc. Better get more termies or oblis.

I see that there are many ways.

- Add dice and bodies - Renegades, which have cool models too. Between plastic and GW cultists one can choose a very diverse range of models.
- Add deepstrikes with more termy/oblit/formations
- Add Daemons, that add a bit of both

One could add Crimson slaughter to support Daemon summoning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
If you want to go for a Warp Charge engine, Tzeentch Daemons are both a fluffy choice and the perfect one. Horrors generate Warp Charges like crazy, especially in big squads, and you can summon more of with with the horrors themselves.

Ok, I look up for the rules. Thank you (to you and the others!). You are priceless, people!

The list i suggested, i think, can hold it's own vs some at least semi-competitive lists. But it's not stable as you depend on your tzeenchian beam power for t-sons. Ideally, if you're running 3-4 squads, 1 or 2 with beam is fine. If you get none, they're only good for melee-ing stuff with a force axe. Ideally, stuff that can't challenge too effectively.

If you are using the Tsons as tax to unlock sorcerers, how about using some of the sorcerers as sorcerers proper?

Something like
CAD1
Hairyman
Sorcerer

4 Tsons +sorc
4 Tsons +sorc

CAD2
Sorcer
TermiSorc

4 Tsons+sorc
4 Tsons+sorc

That uses all 5 sorcerers, the unique and the terminator. Obviously add more units to flavour; this is just a way to maximise the sorcerors and include a few rubrics... Edit: just realised, the second CAD can't take Tsons as troops; that only works on the warlord's detachment. Doh!

With so many sorcerers, have you considered mounting one on a disc of Tzeentch and giving him a burning brand?

The disc is a jetbike so boosts his T to 5, which is pretty nifty. Maybe you could deploy him with your 'spawn' to act as his bullet catchers?

For the terminator I'd consider replacing his combi bolter with a power weapon for the additional melee attack (as well as more versatility in attacks). Otherwise perhaps keep him cheap and use him as a distraction mutilator?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Except when it kills three. Repeatedly. And it is going off on multiple units.

if you set five units on fire which you can easily do, that could be an extra 10 hits a turn! who knows. But you really should consider that. The totality of the effect is quite good and most of the Tzeentch force can do ti for free basically.

In order for your Soul Blaze to kill three boyz, it first has to not fizzle (50% chance), then roll 3 hits, then all 3 hits wound, then no wounds are saved.

Given that the odds for his happening is less than 7%, I don't think you should count on an outcome that you will only see every 14th time you successfully inflict Soul Blaze to begin with - yes, it may be more, but it may also equally be less.

I get all that. And yet... free wounds. they are hits, so you are essentially getting free "Splitfire" shots every round it burns, the flames can begin anew every round you fire and they wounds mount up over time. Not having to hit with those is actually significant. It's all bonus damage.

I don't really know what to tell you. It comes free so you can argue it into the ground but if you're playing Tzeentch, as far as I'm concerned there's no downside to the feature. Not like you can pay less and NOT get it. Lol. So why are you even going on about it really?