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"its not a unit until the start of the game"
Can someone provide me with the page number, your arguments are not helping me understand why a building cannot infiltrate.

I just want a concrete answer, I didn't want want to make a huge debate over a minor issue.

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
"its not a unit until the start of the game"
Can someone provide me with the page number, your arguments are not helping me understand why a building cannot infiltrate.

Page 112 of the Rule Book: Under "Claimed Buildings" it says:

-- At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of the player's army are 'claimed' by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are 'unclaimed'.

-- A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army and will remain so, even if it later becomes occupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by the enemy.

There are two things to note here which support the fact that it isn't a unit until the game starts, the first of which is that a building is not 'claimed' until the the start of the game (which has been shown in previous posts to be after deployment). The second is that it says that a claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army, which, given the first point, can't happen until after deployment.

So by this rule, a building can't Infiltrate, even if it's part of the player's army.

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
I just want a concrete answer, I didn't want want to make a huge debate over a minor issue.

You were going to get a concrete answer eventually, but this is a forum and this is Dakka: I get the feeling it was never going to be as simple as "Here's the exact answer you wanted for your question."

Claiming Buildings
"•At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’.
• A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy."

Key point here:
-At the start of the game, the claimed buildings are units.

Aerial Support
"Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins..."

Key point here:
-The game starts after deployment.

Takeaway:
-The buildings become units after deployment. By which time it is too late to infiltrate them as deployment has already ended.

HondaDaBest wrote:
Claiming Buildings
"•At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player, whilst all other buildings are ‘unclaimed’.
• A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army and will remain so, even if it later becomes unoccupied, until the building is either destroyed or claimed by an enemy."

Key point here:
-At the start of the game, the claimed buildings are units.

Aerial Support
"Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins..."

Key point here:
-The game starts after deployment.

Takeaway:
-The buildings become units after deployment. By which time it is too late to infiltrate them as deployment has already ended.

Thanks!

Charistoph wrote:
It is not listed in the Unit Type section, true, but that does not mean my statement is not accurate. I have already quoted the section on this. It is the more advanced rule.

False. it is not the more advanced rule.

Hondabeast seams to be on point.


Also, shame on you for asking this in any light other then as a joke. It's that level of shenanigans that cause the game to become worse.

I think the following question needs to be asked by quite a few people: "Though I may be able to look at the rules like _____________, but should I?"

In a tournament situation, if you NEED creative rules interpretations to win, then you suck. If you're doin' it for fun, make it clear that it's for fun.

 IllumiNini wrote:

And I would have no problem with this explanation if I could come up with even one example of something that isn't a building that was a unit that didn't have a unit type. If you can prove to me that units without unit types exist - and not as a result of a lack of clarity in the rules - then I will embrace this hands down no questions. But as far as I know, it simply isn't the case. Buildings are the only grey area on this point. So I'll stand by my words: Buildings are not units, but are treated as such in certain circumstances to satisfy certain rules.

If there was any grey area in the rules that state it is a unit I would think so as well. I simply do not see any other way to interpret a line like "A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army."
It does not say it is to be treated like a unit, or that it acts like a unit. It just straight up says is a unit. It ends up being a unit that lacks certain traits a unit must have but the rules still very clearly state it is a unit.

 IllumiNini wrote:

As @HondaDaBest and @Charistoph said, you've essentially just proved to us that the game starts after deployment, meaning that buildings cannot infiltrate because they cannot be in any way considered units until the game starts. If you were trying to argue in support of buildings being able to infiltrate, you may have just checkmated yourself

I was not trying to argue in support of either. If anything I come down on the they cannot infiltrate as there seems to be more evidence of deployment being before the game begins then the other way around. I do think the rules are not clearly written and was pointing out how the two rules seemed to contradict.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
It is not listed in the Unit Type section, true, but that does not mean my statement is not accurate. I have already quoted the section on this. It is the more advanced rule.

False. it is not the more advanced rule.

Care to share why you think so?

There is no Rules regarding Building being a unit type. However, we have a rule that states that a claimed Building is a unit. Therefore Building is a unit type. This allows it to be shot at, Charged, and have other actions performed on it.

Existing rule is more advanced than no rule.

Why do you believe otherwise?

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
It is not listed in the Unit Type section, true, but that does not mean my statement is not accurate. I have already quoted the section on this. It is the more advanced rule.

False. it is not the more advanced rule.

Care to share why you think so?

There is no Rules regarding Building being a unit type. However, we have a rule that states that a claimed Building is a unit. Therefore Building is a unit type. This allows it to be shot at, Charged, and have other actions performed on it.

Existing rule is more advanced than no rule.

Why do you believe otherwise?

(Emphasis mine)

The underlined is where you are making up rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
It is not listed in the Unit Type section, true, but that does not mean my statement is not accurate. I have already quoted the section on this. It is the more advanced rule.

False. it is not the more advanced rule.

Care to share why you think so?

There is no Rules regarding Building being a unit type. However, we have a rule that states that a claimed Building is a unit. Therefore Building is a unit type. This allows it to be shot at, Charged, and have other actions performed on it.

Existing rule is more advanced than no rule.

Why do you believe otherwise?

(Emphasis mine)

The underlined is where you are making up rules.

No, I am not. I am extrapolating the result of rules already given, there is a difference. "Therefore" is used to denote an end to a reasoned process, not a rule in and of itself. Go look at the quote with three bullets, either identify how it is not more advanced than requiring a unit type, or identify where I misquoted.

Okay if building is a unit type, where are the rules for unit type: Building?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Okay if building is a unit type, where are the rules for unit type: Building?

Under the rules for Buildings...

I kow we are nit-picking now, as we've already established that it can't infiltrate, but there isn't Unit Type: Building in the BRB. And I don't think you can create one by extrapolating.

In the Unit Type Sections, only the following is listed:

And that is every single one that is listed. Technically, building is not a valid unit type in the game. It is allowed to be shot at, charged, etc, because it is a unit while it is claimed. But I don't think you can extrapolate from that to say the unit type is actually Building. It is under the Battlefield Terrain section of the BRB after all...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is a special case where it just doesn't have a Unit Type at all.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Okay if building is a unit type, where are the rules for unit type: Building?

Under the rules for Buildings...

Specifically where, because I do not see anything in the building rules that mentions a Unit type.

Good lord, lol this post is still going on./

HondaDaBest wrote:I kow we are nit-picking now, as we've already established that it can't infiltrate, but there isn't Unit Type: Building in the BRB. And I don't think you can create one by extrapolating.

In the Unit Type Sections, only the following is listed:
...
And that is every single one that is listed. Technically, building is not a valid unit type in the game. It is allowed to be shot at, charged, etc, because it is a unit while it is claimed. But I don't think you can extrapolate from that to say the unit type is actually Building. It is under the Battlefield Terrain section of the BRB after all...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is a special case where it just doesn't have a Unit Type at all.

Possibly. Possibly not. Definitely not in a literal sense. Remember that we are taking a Terrain Type and making it a unit. Thus in practice, the Type under Terrain is made a Unit Type under the process of extrapolation.

Oddly enough, Vehicles and Characters are somewhat separated in the entire section. Nothing really of note for this conversation, really, just found it an interesting perspective.

DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Okay if building is a unit type, where are the rules for unit type: Building?

Under the rules for Buildings...

Specifically where, because I do not see anything in the building rules that mentions a Unit type.

You asked where the rules were, I didn't say it mentioned it. This is only an extrapolation remember?

Please fellas

I only wanted to know if it is legal. It clearly isn't until an FAQ is or Errata has been made. I wasn't trying to power game or do anything crazy, I just had a situation where I rolled the Warlord Trait and put me into the situation whether or not I could or couldn't do it. We rolled off at the time, but I came here for clarification. I have 0 intention to attempt to break the game.

We can end the argument here, I read enough to make up my mind.

Charistoph wrote:

HondaDaBest wrote:I kow we are nit-picking now, as we've already established that it can't infiltrate, but there isn't Unit Type: Building in the BRB. And I don't think you can create one by extrapolating.

In the Unit Type Sections, only the following is listed:
...
And that is every single one that is listed. Technically, building is not a valid unit type in the game. It is allowed to be shot at, charged, etc, because it is a unit while it is claimed. But I don't think you can extrapolate from that to say the unit type is actually Building. It is under the Battlefield Terrain section of the BRB after all...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is a special case where it just doesn't have a Unit Type at all.

Possibly. Possibly not. Definitely not in a literal sense. Remember that we are taking a Terrain Type and making it a unit. Thus in practice, the Type under Terrain is made a Unit Type under the process of extrapolation.

Oddly enough, Vehicles and Characters are somewhat separated in the entire section. Nothing really of note for this conversation, really, just found it an interesting perspective.

DeathReaper wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Okay if building is a unit type, where are the rules for unit type: Building?

Under the rules for Buildings...

Specifically where, because I do not see anything in the building rules that mentions a Unit type.

You asked where the rules were, I didn't say it mentioned it. This is only an extrapolation remember?

So there is nothing in the building rules that mentions Unit type.

Okay now we are getting somewhere...

Unit type: Building is not a thing.

Do some of you really have trouble understanding that the game begins at the start of the first turn?

Do you need to be told how to roll your dice as well?

Cindis wrote:
Do some of you really have trouble understanding that the game begins at the start of the first turn?

Do you need to be told how to roll your dice as well?

This is all happening in a thread where we're talking about buildings infiltrating.... hahahahaha

Cindis wrote:
Do some of you really have trouble understanding that the game begins at the start of the first turn?

Do you need to be told how to roll your dice as well?

Please point out the page and paragraph where we are told how to roll dice? Otherwise flag your post as HIWPI.