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Bharring wrote:
The 3+ is more relevant in an era of spammed 6+ than before.

With the S6 spam, SM always get a 3+. So it retains 100% of its value.

2/3rds of all wounds are ignored. Compared to other specialists, typically they only ignore 1/2 or 1/3 of wounds. So this S6 spam hoses them at least twice as hard.

The model spam armies (Guard, Orks, Gaunts) do a little better vs S6 spam, but perform even better relative to Tacs at soaking the lower S lower AP that used to be used to kill Tacs. So Guardsmen may do better vs S6 spam, but by a lower margin than they otherwise would.

The non-Horde armies all do disastrously worse vs S6 spam. Footdar. Kalabites. Wyches. Scouts. They take much heavier losses (half again or double), while not costing as much less as Marines.

So sure, S6 spam might be so OP that it shoots Tac squads off the table. But it does so much worse to the non-Marines armies. If you'd loose 100pts, they would often lose 150 or more.

So Marines are the best off when it comes to transitioning from a mix of low/med S low AP weapon spam to mid S high AP weapon spam. It's just so OP it doesn't feel like it.

You are discounting overkill. There is no "worse" than losing an entire unit. Just because you overkilled one unit worse than another doesn't mean they both aren't dead. Also, once you equip a tac squad it's not entirely clear to me that they are faring better than 4+ armor units. Almost certainly not, because they are being wounded on the same number. Units like Sternguard? They are even worse. The real winner of S6 spam are units like the Riptide.

I suggest you try your hand at BA if you really want to understand how terrible meqs are now. If the things you claimed were true about marines in general, BA wouldn't be such a horrid list. The meq profile sucks now. Almost everything in C:SM that makes it good either is a) not an meq or b) has a formation to make it good.

The problem is if your going to kill the entire unit anyway me paying for all the benefits of an MEQ suddenly become a waste. More than ever this game punishes generalist with assault and anti infantry fire power being at an all time low in value. A lot of what I pay for an MEQ body isn't that good anymore.

Assuming its only one unit firing..

Let's look at SL spam.

An SL shot kills 5/27ths of Marine.

An SL shot kills 10/27 Guardians.

An SL squad needs the exact same number of shots to kill an MSU Marine squad (5@70pts) as Guardian squad (10@90pts).

That would be 6.75 Scatter Lasers on average.

An SL squad needs the exact same number of shots to kill a max SM squad (10@140) as it needs to kill a max Guardian squad (20@180).

Both are typically fielded at their min quantity. Both have the same exact breakpoints for firepower.

Any overkill here is the exact same numbers. SM simply lose fewer points.

While it is the same points, its not the same value. When it comes to killing SM squads, it should almost always be the last or second to last wound that kills the Special or Heavy. Whereas Guardians, and a lot of non-Marine squads lose firepower evenly across wounds. This means, kill 60% of a Guardian squad, and you've killed 60% of its firepower. Kill 60% of a Marine squad, and you've killed 20% of its firepower.

Where this matters is firepower allocation. If you have two SL Bike units. You shoot one, and one Marine remans in the first squad. Do you use the second squad to finish the one guy, or start eating a second squad? A tough decision. Not so tough when facing 2 Guardians or shoot up another squad. So the Marine player either has 2 Specials/Heavies left, or a 5-man with a Special left. The Guardians have 2 2-man squads remaining. The SM are still 80% effective. The Guardians are 20% effective.

The Overkill argument actually favors Marines, mostly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My Marines are PA spam.

2x10man Tacs
1x10man Devs
1x7man ASM

That is the core of my list. Frequently with more Devs and Tacs added.

With points, look at the numbers above. That 5man gets a PG at 85 pts, still cheaper than the Guardians. But with much scarier weapons.

As for Sternguard, what about Trueborn? The Elite version of Wyches? Banshees? Sternies have never been more durable than Tacs. But the move from AP3 or better to lots AP4+ certainly didn't make them less durable compared to non-3+ units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there is something worse than losing one unit. Losing two units.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The 3+ is more relevant in an era of spammed 6+ than before.

With the S6 spam, SM always get a 3+. So it retains 100% of its value.

2/3rds of all wounds are ignored. Compared to other specialists, typically they only ignore 1/2 or 1/3 of wounds. So this S6 spam hoses them at least twice as hard.

The model spam armies (Guard, Orks, Gaunts) do a little better vs S6 spam, but perform even better relative to Tacs at soaking the lower S lower AP that used to be used to kill Tacs. So Guardsmen may do better vs S6 spam, but by a lower margin than they otherwise would.

The non-Horde armies all do disastrously worse vs S6 spam. Footdar. Kalabites. Wyches. Scouts. They take much heavier losses (half again or double), while not costing as much less as Marines.

So sure, S6 spam might be so OP that it shoots Tac squads off the table. But it does so much worse to the non-Marines armies. If you'd loose 100pts, they would often lose 150 or more.

So Marines are the best off when it comes to transitioning from a mix of low/med S low AP weapon spam to mid S high AP weapon spam. It's just so OP it doesn't feel like it.

You are discounting overkill. There is no "worse" than losing an entire unit. Just because you overkilled one unit worse than another doesn't mean they both aren't dead. Also, once you equip a tac squad it's not entirely clear to me that they are faring better than 4+ armor units. Almost certainly not, because they are being wounded on the same number. Units like Sternguard? They are even worse. The real winner of S6 spam are units like the Riptide.

I suggest you try your hand at BA if you really want to understand how terrible meqs are now. If the things you claimed were true about marines in general, BA wouldn't be such a horrid list. The meq profile sucks now. Almost everything in C:SM that makes it good either is a) not an meq or b) has a formation to make it good.

I'd kill to have even BA equivalents...

At least you guys get; ATSKNF + Combat Squads + Furious Charge + Grav gun/Combi-Grav + Heavy flamer/Hand flamer + Drop pod/Razorback.

Guess what Chaos Marines get? Nothing...
We get Plasma guns, Meltaguns and Rhinos, with the option to make our already overcosted troops even more expensive, just to give them half the basic rules that everyone else gets as standard.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The 3+ is more relevant in an era of spammed 6+ than before.

With the S6 spam, SM always get a 3+. So it retains 100% of its value.

2/3rds of all wounds are ignored. Compared to other specialists, typically they only ignore 1/2 or 1/3 of wounds. So this S6 spam hoses them at least twice as hard.

The model spam armies (Guard, Orks, Gaunts) do a little better vs S6 spam, but perform even better relative to Tacs at soaking the lower S lower AP that used to be used to kill Tacs. So Guardsmen may do better vs S6 spam, but by a lower margin than they otherwise would.

The non-Horde armies all do disastrously worse vs S6 spam. Footdar. Kalabites. Wyches. Scouts. They take much heavier losses (half again or double), while not costing as much less as Marines.

So sure, S6 spam might be so OP that it shoots Tac squads off the table. But it does so much worse to the non-Marines armies. If you'd loose 100pts, they would often lose 150 or more.

So Marines are the best off when it comes to transitioning from a mix of low/med S low AP weapon spam to mid S high AP weapon spam. It's just so OP it doesn't feel like it.

You are discounting overkill. There is no "worse" than losing an entire unit. Just because you overkilled one unit worse than another doesn't mean they both aren't dead. Also, once you equip a tac squad it's not entirely clear to me that they are faring better than 4+ armor units. Almost certainly not, because they are being wounded on the same number. Units like Sternguard? They are even worse. The real winner of S6 spam are units like the Riptide.

I suggest you try your hand at BA if you really want to understand how terrible meqs are now. If the things you claimed were true about marines in general, BA wouldn't be such a horrid list. The meq profile sucks now. Almost everything in C:SM that makes it good either is a) not an meq or b) has a formation to make it good.

I'd kill to have even BA equivalents...

At least you guys get; ATSKNF + Combat Squads + Furious Charge + Grav gun/Combi-Grav + Heavy flamer/Hand flamer + Drop pod/Razorback.

Guess what Chaos Marines get? Nothing...
We get Plasma guns, Meltaguns and Rhinos, with the option to make our already overcosted troops even more expensive, just to give them half the basic rules that everyone else gets as standard.

The sad part is that it doesn't make any difference at all. Out of 1000 games, I'd bet that the Helldrake fetches as many victories or more than all those BA "advantages" put together. Those are all silly, trivial trinkets in the face of units like Wulfen, TWC, Grav cents, scatterbikes, WK, anything from codex: Necron, etc. Regular grav guns are not nearly as nice as Xeno players make them out to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Assuming its only one unit firing..

Let's look at SL spam.

An SL shot kills 5/27ths of Marine.

An SL shot kills 10/27 Guardians.

An SL squad needs the exact same number of shots to kill an MSU Marine squad (5@70pts) as Guardian squad (10@90pts).

That would be 6.75 Scatter Lasers on average.

An SL squad needs the exact same number of shots to kill a max SM squad (10@140) as it needs to kill a max Guardian squad (20@180).

Both are typically fielded at their min quantity. Both have the same exact breakpoints for firepower.

Any overkill here is the exact same numbers. SM simply lose fewer points.

While it is the same points, its not the same value. When it comes to killing SM squads, it should almost always be the last or second to last wound that kills the Special or Heavy. Whereas Guardians, and a lot of non-Marine squads lose firepower evenly across wounds. This means, kill 60% of a Guardian squad, and you've killed 60% of its firepower. Kill 60% of a Marine squad, and you've killed 20% of its firepower.

Where this matters is firepower allocation. If you have two SL Bike units. You shoot one, and one Marine remans in the first squad. Do you use the second squad to finish the one guy, or start eating a second squad? A tough decision. Not so tough when facing 2 Guardians or shoot up another squad. So the Marine player either has 2 Specials/Heavies left, or a 5-man with a Special left. The Guardians have 2 2-man squads remaining. The SM are still 80% effective. The Guardians are 20% effective.

The Overkill argument actually favors Marines, mostly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My Marines are PA spam.

2x10man Tacs
1x10man Devs
1x7man ASM

That is the core of my list. Frequently with more Devs and Tacs added.

With points, look at the numbers above. That 5man gets a PG at 85 pts, still cheaper than the Guardians. But with much scarier weapons.

As for Sternguard, what about Trueborn? The Elite version of Wyches? Banshees? Sternies have never been more durable than Tacs. But the move from AP3 or better to lots AP4+ certainly didn't make them less durable compared to non-3+ units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there is something worse than losing one unit. Losing two units.

You're skewing it by using guardians. I said 4+ armor units like firewarriors. 5+ armor units that are more costly than guardsmen of course are going to suffer and shouldn't be used in general if other choice are available. Like scatterbikes.

I don't know what kind of wargear they pack in, but a naked firewarrior is giving up way fewer points to SL than tac marines with their usual equipment. Combi+special puts tac marines at around 19 ppm.

Do you consider your marine list to be a good list? That list seems pretty poor to me. Devs in particular are complete dumpster fires.

A FW is giving up 13.5pts for every 14pts a Tac Marine gives up, before factoring in extra gear, overkill, or ablative wounds.

ATSKNF means that, if 25-80% of the squad dies, the rest of the squad (which retains 80-95% of the firepower) is going to stick around.

Without ATSKNF, if 25%+ of the FW squad dies, they have something g like a 1/3 chance of routing - which usually means being nearly useless for at least a turn.

Combi+PG does take SM 5-man teams at more points/hit from SLs (13.5 vs 19) than Fire Warriors, if the squad is always finished off. That one is true.

But what about Scouts? They lose 16.5 to 14 naked, 19.5 to 16 only including a Combi, and much worse kitted out with anything better.

But what about Dire Avengers? They lose 19.5pts for every 14/19 pts an SM squad loses. While being a lot worse off than SM with any partially-finished squads. Throw in an Exarch, and its 22.5 to 19.5.

What about Kalabites with weapons upgrades? Sure, they are a 5+ unit, but the only other troops in that Dex are Wyches. Without upgrades, Kalabite and Wyches do worse. With upgrades, Kalabite and Wyches do worse.

Of course most 5+ units cost more ppm than Guardsmen. Guardsmen are one of the cheap bodies faction. Some factions with 5+ troops can chose something else (huzzah, CSM players can choose CSM?). But DE, for example, choose between 5+ and -.

My Marine list isnt "competitive". I brought it up as you were informing me that I need to play Marines to understand why the troops best kitted for eating S6 spam are the troops most hosed by S6 spam. It has Devs and ASM and 10-mans because (1) I feel its fluffy, (2) I like fielding them, and (3) my opponents enjoy a diverse army, regardless of how strong/weak it is, more than spam or single-aspect armies.

(Ironically, its one of the few ways to play SM that would benefit tremendously from BA CT.)

Mass meqs get deaded before they can use furious charge. Hell, I can't get JUMP marines anywhere close to the Tau or Eldar.

Also, the numbers you threw out are all relatively close. Which just goes to show that until you get into MCs, the scatterlaser REALLY doesn't care what its shooting at. To make matters worse, marine tanks are effectively AV 11 vs scatbikes (you can't keep them on front armor), so they can all be trashed from a very safe distance. Scatterlaser is one-stop shopping vs marines vehicles AND infantry, and that degrades the value of marines whether you agree or not.

Hence the "My list isn't competitive".

My list isn't a suggestion for how to win tournies. It was an example to dispel the idea that my thoughts have no merit because I've apparently never fielded MEQ.

Bharring wrote:
Hence the "My list isn't competitive".

My list isn't a suggestion for how to win tournies. It was an example to dispel the idea that my thoughts have no merit because I've apparently never fielded MEQ.

Okay, then. Although with foot meq, you probably won't notice anything special about the scatterlaser because the IA and Basilisk are so much better anyway in that scenario.

Its more that its not my Marines that really feel the high volume mid S high AP firepower. Its the other factions.

(Usually one Tac squad gets a Rhino, and the other gets a Pod, so they aren't footsloggers mostly.)

Pod marines are footsloggers. They just start at a different spot on the table. But then they just die after they drop, so it matters little.

Factions like DE have transports with a 3+ cover save as well. So it actually takes longer to shoot them out of their transport. Not that it really matters in the end, but it's not like stock marines really have any better chance against real units than DE or kalabites or what have you. They are all just victims.

I don't think you understand just how quickly less-than-MEQ die compared to Marines.

That aside, back on topic:
115pts for:
LC
2xPG
CombiPG
AV11 hull
5 Marines

is way too cheap.

Bharring wrote:
I don't think you understand just how quickly less-than-MEQ die compared to Marines.

That aside, back on topic:
115pts for:
LC
2xPG
CombiPG
AV11 hull
5 Marines

is way too cheap.

But it's on par with Necrons, Eldar, Tau, etc. That's the issue.

I fight these less-than-meqs, and they don't die quickly.

Necron Warriors are MEQ survivability. T4 4+ RP is Marine Equivalent. Not technically a 3+ save, buy is that or better in effect. Surviving is their whole schtick.

ScatterSpam are MEQ survivability. T4 3+ exactly. Oddly, the most OP troop actually loses *more* pts/shot to S6+ shots (17/27 to 14/19 ppm). Not that small a margin either.

Crisis Suits are 2W MEQ. Again, T4 3+. So they soak twice the firepower per model. But even with chepo weapons, they come out to 42ppm for two guns no system. So they lose 21:14/19 ppm. So they do worse than Marines at eating S6.

None of those are less-than-MEQs. And, among those, the one you complain about the most is actually the one worst off at receiving S6 spam!

Bharring wrote:
Necron Warriors are MEQ survivability. T4 4+ RP is Marine Equivalent. Not technically a 3+ save, buy is that or better in effect. Surviving is their whole schtick.

ScatterSpam are MEQ survivability. T4 3+ exactly. Oddly, the most OP troop actually loses *more* pts/shot to S6+ shots (17/27 to 14/19 ppm). Not that small a margin either.

Crisis Suits are 2W MEQ. Again, T4 3+. So they soak twice the firepower per model. But even with chepo weapons, they come out to 42ppm for two guns no system. So they lose 21:14/19 ppm. So they do worse than Marines at eating S6.

None of those are less-than-MEQs. And, among those, the one you complain about the most is actually the one worst off at receiving S6 spam!

Necron Warriors have a second save, which makes them better against AP3 and S8

Scatbikes are incredibly mobile. Have fun even getting into range to kill one.

Crisis suits aren't intended to do what marines do. They can be specialised to take on almost every thing in the game, excluding LoW and Apoc. Again, Crisis suits are also very mobile which makes it hard when they move an average of 13 inches a turn.

The problem is that either than being some what durable for there points (How durable is heavily depending on the Meta) is tacticals don't do anything else well. I agree that the Gladius is silly as I feel the same on an formation that gives free things that usually have points. But that doesn't change the fact that tacticals need something, cause they don't cut it on there own.

There shooting is at best meh. Bolters are one of the worst basic guns in the game. Additionally they don't fight particularly well. Not being able to take two specials is just icing on the cake.

There's a lot of tabletop effects here. Firewarriors are squishier than tac marines, but surviving long enough to exploit that is very difficult.

Scatterbikes are indeed very good at killing each other. However, they are functionally more durable than meqs because of their range. Most lists just can't throw many shots at 36".

Tac marines end up being much worse off than pure survivability numbers indicate because they have no hope of silencing the guns. Your tac marines don't stand a chance against 7 turns of full powered scatterlaser fire. Because that's basically what ends up happening.

I think I'm being misunderstood again.

I'm saying that those I listed there are *not* "Less than MEQs" for survivability.

All 3 would tend to be listed as MEQ.

Bharring wrote:
I think I'm being misunderstood again.

I'm saying that those I listed there are *not* "Less than MEQs" for survivability.

All 3 would tend to be listed as MEQ.

What is your point then?

Martel was saying that they are "less than MEQ"-survivable units, and they don't die too quickly.

I was pointing out that they aren't "less than MEQ" survivable units.

I'm saying that I can't kill them quickly with BA. Utilizing free cover, which frequently does nothing for meqs, makes cheaper units a lot better. 4+ armor units in cover are in a particularly good spot.

And my point stands that scatterlasers really don't care what they are shooting at. It's a death sentence for so many units.

That isn't the point I disagreed with.

I disagreed with SL spam being worse for Tacs than for any of the other troops in the game.

That is a very different point.

Bharring wrote:
That isn't the point I disagreed with.

I disagreed with SL spam being worse for Tacs than for any of the other troops in the game.

That is a very different point.

I have to agree. While the T is wasted (most troops are wounded on a 2+ regardless) the armor save is the only benefit you have. IG and such don't really even benefit from cover since it's a low AP weapon.
Granted, a squad of them can cripple most units in the game, if not outright kill.

I am not sure how true this is in practice. I tend to take min tacs if I take them at all, so how quickly my tacs are deleted are of no concern to me. Most of my troops are like that in many armies.

It's may not be worse but it is a major reason why tacticals are so bad outside a GSF. There offensive out put is meh compare to other things I could take and mass strength six shooting makes the T4 irrelevant and my save marginal. The sad truth is at the scale this game can be played infantry matter less and less.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It's may not be worse but it is a major reason why tacticals are so bad outside a GSF. There offensive out put is meh compare to other things I could take and mass strength six shooting makes the T4 irrelevant and my save marginal. The sad truth is at the scale this game can be played infantry matter less and less.

There are reasons I play "Stronghold Assault" in a cities of death game...

Bharring wrote:
That isn't the point I disagreed with.

I disagreed with SL spam being worse for Tacs than for any of the other troops in the game.

That is a very different point.

There's a few units better off, but I really think the situation is functionally the same for most units. I think that hurts marines who have purchased gear quite a bit compared to the other common troops I see.

We pay for (fairly in my view at least in a Vacuum) marines have good stats, the problem is we get gear and stats that are rarely useful in many metas

WS, S, I are all stats that really don't do much for us since assault is difficult this edition.

Bharring wrote:
I don't think you understand just how quickly less-than-MEQ die compared to Marines.

That aside, back on topic:
115pts for:
LC
2xPG
CombiPG
AV11 hull
5 Marines

is way too cheap.

Im sorry, but do you believe 5 tac marines get a las cannon, two plasma guns and a combi plasma for 115 points?

Marines in 5 man squads are 3 pts a model in that detachment. I don't know how expensive those weapons are but quite sure that they aren't close to 100 points.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Marines in 5 man squads are 3 pts a model in that detachment. I don't know how expensive those weapons are but quite sure that they aren't close to 100 points.

No, they have free transports. Do not mistake the two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Marine wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I don't think you understand just how quickly less-than-MEQ die compared to Marines.

That aside, back on topic:
115pts for:
LC
2xPG
CombiPG
AV11 hull
5 Marines

is way too cheap.

Im sorry, but do you believe 5 tac marines get a las cannon, two plasma guns and a combi plasma for 115 points?

That comes down to (assuming PG/LC Razorback), 130 points, friend.