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Basically it's not MORE overpowered than scatterspam therefore it's fine? That's ridiculous. Getting 350 pts of free, obj sec vehicles is unfair. It's pretty simple.

pm713 wrote:
Basically it's not MORE overpowered than scatterspam therefore it's fine? That's ridiculous. Getting 350 pts of free, obj sec vehicles is unfair. It's pretty simple.

You've failed to read and understand the OP. Try again.

Traditio wrote:


You've failed to read and understand the OP. Try again.

Perhaps you should take your own advice here for the rest of the thread.

Must be annoying having people put words in your mouth, eh?

@Kanluwen

I never disputed that Tacs, AMs and Devs were suboptimal choices in C:SM. I just think it's hilarious that the OP thinks they are the most underpowered and overpriced units in the game.

The elites section of the IG codex would beg to differ.

 Blacksails wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Essentially all I'm hearing from you people is: "But it's difficult to table it!"

I want to pull this out here and explain very clearly.

Nobody is saying that, nor is it even remotely implied.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to actually read what people are saying and argue that. Right now you're putting words in people's mouth (incorrect ones) and plugging your own ears.

I have in mind a demons player in another thread who was complaining about how difficult it is to kill an extra 8-10 rhinos or razorbacks, since demons apparently are bad at killing those things. [Which, by the way, I consider hilarious that a demons player would be objecting. After all, demon players don't use summoning powers, right?]

I could be reading this wrong, but when I read: "But that's more stuff I have to kill!" just translates to: "I have a problem if you still have people left at the end of the game."

And again, if your problem is that they all have objective secured, space marines running an identical list (minus the transports) already had that in the previous codex if they were running a CAD. They had 3 more if they bothered running assault marines without jet packs.

Reading this thread, i think it was designed to be inflammatory on purpose.
"Let me type something ridiculous and watch the flame war rise!"
And how are tactical marines "one of the worst in the game?" just the myriad of special rules, t4 3+ armor for 12 points a model, and even if it fell back, auto-regroups with no penalties besides a mild shuffle of position on the board.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Reading this thread, i think it was designed to be inflammatory on purpose.
"Let me type something ridiculous and watch the flame war rise!"
And how are tactical marines "one of the worst in the game?" just the myriad of special rules, t4 3+ armor for 12 points a model, and even if it fell back, auto-regroups with no penalties besides a mild shuffle of position on the board.

It's because they aren't as good as Scatbikes. If a unit isn't as good as a scatbike then it's obviously the worst unit in the game.

Traditio wrote:


in another thread

That being the key part of your statment, you are arguing a point that hasn't been made in THIS thread. That other thread =/= this thread.

 pumaman1 wrote:
Reading this thread, i think it was designed to be inflammatory on purpose.
"Let me type something ridiculous and watch the flame war rise!"
And how are tactical marines "one of the worst in the game?" just the myriad of special rules, t4 3+ armor for 12 points a model, and even if it fell back, auto-regroups with no penalties besides a mild shuffle of position on the board.

1. 14 points per model, not 12.
2. Armed with a S4, AP 5 rapid fire guns with a range of 24 inches.

On paper, that sounds fine. Given the meta, it can end up being completely useless against various opponents. [Compare this to Tau, who get S5 guns at 30 inch range, and Necrons, who get guass.]

Space marines players pay for a stat line that they simply aren't going to use in its entirety in any one game (WS 4 AND BS 4)...not to mention the fact that 3+ armor save won't save you against what seems like unlimited fire power from virtually every other codex.

Oh, you're rolling 50 dice, Orks player? Cool...

Traditio wrote:


I have in mind a demons player in another thread who was compalining about how difficult it is to kill an extra 8-10 rhinos or razorbacks, since demons apparently are bad at killing those things.

Which is a fair complaint, when you consider those razorbacks are free, have decent weapons on them, and shield the marines inside. Killing one or two razors is fine, 3-5 is a bit of challenge for some armies in a timely manner, but a dozen is rough for most armies, especially when the support options are considered.

I could be reading this wrong, but when I read: "But that's more stuff I have to kill!" just translates to: "I have a problem if you still have people left at the end of the game."

Which, again, is you speaking, not the people typing out these arguments. No one here says or thinks that they have to be able to table an army for it be fine. That's positively absurd. What the issue is that there's so many bodies in mobile transports that still have good firepower, supported by strong units, with powerful army wide abilities that allow them to score easily and regularly. They have a problem with simply being out maneuvered, out gunner, out durabled (totally a word), and out pointed (a few hundred extra points in transports is nothing to scoff at, no matter how weak you may think they are).

And again, if your problem is that they all have objective secured, space marines running an identical list (minus the transports) already had that in the previous codex if they were running a CAD. They had 3 more if they bothered running assault marines without jet packs.

And in the previous codex, there was no free transports for all, chapter tactics weren't as good, no doctrines, and no badass formations to support them. Marines also got cheaper, making them able to bring more.

It all adds up.

In the end though, there's simply far too much evidence and common sense going against your argument that it really isn't worth my time to keep this going. Its obvious you've made up your mind, and that's fine I guess, but you'll find yourself in a very tiny minority of similarly minded people.

I've been tabled by gladius. As a dark Eldar player I actually have to pay for my transports, I have no multiple shot high strength weaponry to deal with multiple razorbacks and the twin linked heavy bolters do shred my vehicles if I don't jink, further reducing my ability to bring them down. You don't get to sit there and say your 500 free points are fair, your tactical marines are over costed and your devestators are sub par choices then compare your woes to elder, tau and necrons.

Why don't you walk a mile with a pre decurion type formation codex before you complain that your tournament proven army archetype is given shtick for being unfair?

Almost every thread or complaint I read about this or that codex being over/under powered boils down to how hard it is to remove models from the table. As many others in this thread have pointed out: tabling an opponent is not the only way to win the game. If you are playing against Necrons, don't try to table them. It's an exercise in futility. Grab objectives. If you are playing against a GSF, don't try to grab objectives. You'll never get there first. Grab a couple and contest them so the SM can't get it. You have to tailor your game to the army you are facing.

Traditio wrote:
1. 14 points per model, not 12.
2. Armed with a S4, AP 5 rapid fire gun with a range of 24 inches.

On paper, that sounds fine. Given the meta, it can end up being completely useless against various opponents.

Space marines players pay for a stat line that they simply aren't going to use in its entirety in any one game (WS 4 AND BS 4)...not to mention the fact that 3+ armor save won't save you against what seems like unlimited fire power from virtually every other codex.

Oh, you're rolling 50 dice, Orks player? Cool...

Tactical Marines aren't certainly top notch nowadays but they're very far from being useless. Then you say "unlimited fire power from virtually every other codex" (in a thread where you're supposedly arguing that a formation which grants you FREE objective secured transports is NOT unfair) and to end it all, take a snip at... Orks? Seriously?

Stop trolling.

Traditio wrote:
I repeat my challenge:

Would anyone care to tell me about the last time that you got tabled by a battle company?

I'm waiting.

Essentially all I'm hearing from you people is: "But it's difficult to table it!"

Again, I repeat my challenge:

Why was nobody complaining, last codex, about the possibility of spamming assault marines and "free" drop pods or rhinos?

Do you play in some weird meta where tabling is the only mode of victory? How about we look at all of the listed empirical evidence about how good they are? But go ahead and keep asking about the tabling.............

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Basically it's not MORE overpowered than scatterspam therefore it's fine? That's ridiculous. Getting 350 pts of free, obj sec vehicles is unfair. It's pretty simple.

You've failed to read and understand the OP. Try again.

I really didn't.

Traditio wrote:
Furthermore, I wish to ask this question to all of the people who are complaining about it:

When is the last time you got tabled by a battle company?

There is so much more to winning this game than tabling your opponent. Most tournaments use some variant of Maelstorm objectives these days and that is were a list like the GSF shines. You have at least 10 object tanks/units plus whatever else you take in the army. You literally don't have to bother killing anything just drive around and rack up points.

grabs popcorn.

Go on sir. Tell us more about how gladius strike force is bad. We want alllll the things you have to say.

You know what's just as bad as the Gladius strike force, the Tau combined fire special rule. Completely useless. that tau are just too good at shooting that they never need 3 units to shoot at once and combine powers

Razorbacks suck until you get them for free and just spend 30 points for a Dozer Blade and a better weapon.
Rhinos also suck until you get them for free.

The battle company gladius is great. Fantastic, even. I love mine. And, yes, it is powerful. There is no denying that. Of course, there is also no denying that space marines were powerful before, and there are non-gladius builds that continue to be powerful. For me, though, the best thing about it is that I can bring power armoured marines - fluffily the backbone of a space marine army - and not insta-lose anymore.

The argument that gladius is OP because it wins tournaments is, on its face, fallacious. Space marines were winning tournaments before. Crappy pre-2015 codexes were bad before the gladius. The gladius is not responsible for that. The only thing that changed is what the space marines bring.

Before the gladius, no one was taking tacticals, devs, or assault marines. Space marines would take scouts to fill minimums, and then take other units that are actually good. Many lists still do so, and are very competitive.

It took three changes to even make the gladius a viable choice.

1. Free transports.
2. ObSec ERRTHANG
3. Troop-mounted grav cannons

Honestly, take out any one of those three things, and the gladius immediately becomes worse than any of the previous viable builds. So, sure, the gladius is powerful. It's probably OP. But it needs to be in order to even make power armour marines worth taking at all. Without it, you'd still be bitching about how much more GW loves space marines than any of your other armies, it'd just be something else about them.

Traditio wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
It doesn't table people. It picks off objectives.

Other codices can't spam infantry that have objective secured and cost fewer points than space marines?

How many boys can an ork player fit in an 1850 points list?

How many guardsmen?

It's not our fault that certain people want to put all of your points into giant, OP nonsense.

The absolute cheapest unit of trukk boyz is 90. At 4+ armor, it's 130. I think your unit is cheaper, and you have better armor.

Asking how many times you've been tabled by a BC is a subjective question, its based on local meta and personal experience.. Since I can assume the folks in this thread all have some experience with Marines I would ask this;
How many people have you tabled with a BC?

Answer? None, a battle company is used to tie up objectives and if you want it to table, I suggest Centurions over the devs/assaults.

I have never been tabled by a Battle Company because all the other marine players are Bloods, Darks and Wolves!
I would also ALWAYS take VV over AM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wherever possible, not in a battle company, I mean

 FL5 wrote:
The battle company gladius is great. Fantastic, even. I love mine. And, yes, it is powerful. There is no denying that. Of course, there is also no denying that space marines were powerful before, and there are non-gladius builds that continue to be powerful. For me, though, the best thing about it is that I can bring power armoured marines - fluffily the backbone of a space marine army - and not insta-lose anymore.

This. This. A thousand times this.

This is what I think that people are butt hurt over, and as I said, I don't feel their pain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCrusadeSmurf wrote:
Asking how many times you've been tabled by a BC is a subjective question

No, it isn't. It's a question with an empirically verifiable, objective answer, in particular, one which can be given in the form of a number. For example: "0," "1," "2," "3," "4," etc.

,

Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait. You're serious. I'll laugh harder!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Crack open the Guard, Ork or CSM codices at some point in the future. You'll see how spoiled C:SM players really are.

I don't really have much sympathy for guard or the CSM. Both codices have the ability to spam high strength, low AP pie plates.

I will grant that the "base" CSM troop deserves a boost, though.

When was the last time either Codex won a major tournament? Do you believe either book is any way close to the same league

Gladius isn't scary. it's one of the few ways for C:SM to be competitive against the truly scary armies. Anyone bringing Gladius against weaker codexes needs to be questioned however. It's only acceptable in an ultra competitive environment IMO.

Traditio wrote:
The gladius strike force battle company is completely fair because this is the situation that "fluffy" space marines list find themselves in already. To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game.

Oh. I guess I can take free Immolators/Rhinos for my SoB then? And probably at least two Exorcists to make up for the sisters being weaker than marines? That sounds totally fair to me.

Sure, Gladius makes it worthwhile to take all those marines that you'd otherwise leave at home. It's also one of the strongest formations, reportedly able to outlast even Necrons in the durability game. So don't call it fair, call it insanely OP just like the other 7.5 formation BS.

So the IG can have free CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORTS?

Free stuff has been around for a very long time. Hell, my 3.5 chaos got free aspiring champion upgrades. But at the same time, I had to mark each of my guys at five points a pop and had to take squads in multiples of 6 to get it. So yeah, a free 13 point upgrade for a mandatory spending of 30 or 60 points.

But even back then some people complained, so this is nothing new. Anything that gives you a point edge in models on the field is a problem for balance.

I'm of two minds on the issue.

On the one hand, I don't think anyone can realistically argue that, absent the Gladius, a SM army comprising largely/entirely of Tactical, Assault, and Devastator Squads could be considered a "good" army i the sense it would do well against the tournament meta. I think that's a pretty clear indication those units are overcosted for what they deliver.

That said, I'm not particularly happy with the Gladius free transport bonus (or the version I use - the Lion's Blade). Or, more accurately, how it delivers it. Instead of getting free Transports all around if you take Gladiusx2, I wish a single Gladius would give free transports to full-sized squads. That would have supported a legitimately fluffy build, at least somewhat redressed the weakness of playing the demi-company without going overboard, and been a marketing tool for GW. That's win all around.

One last point - just because other armies/units have it worse, doesn't mean the Gladius-free demi-company build doesn't have it bad. There are worse codexes out there than Codex: Space Marines by far. However, that doesn't change the fact that the most fluffy build you can make for a SM force (the demi-company) is a weak army because the units comprising it are underpowered.

The Battle Demi-Company, not Gladius, gives free transports to mediocre units. It helps with target saturation, but is only useful for a swam strategy... with Marines.

I acknowledge that it seems to do well enough at Tournaments, but in our Garage gaming group, nobody takes it any more because it is regularly beaten. The benefit of free transports for a crap-ton of basic duders has not been successful in our group of 5 "regular" gamers.

I think it's stupid, but not horrible to face off against.