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 oldravenman3025 wrote:

That's certainly your prerogative. However, to make a truly informed decision, one has to look at the long view in addition to everything else. If you don't take into account what WILL (not "could") be forced on you years down the road, that's just shortsighted in my humble opinion.By then, it will be too late, because Britain will too integrated to pull out of an federated, European superstate, with a Euro military, with out violence or outside assistance. The powers that be in Brussels will NOT let the British to pull out of the EU in that instance, without taking harsh measures, out of fear that others may get the same idea (like they are going apeshit behind closed doors over Brexit right now) You will just be another province in the new Euro Empire. Your fate won't be your own anymore. Do you want that for your descendants? For your land with centuries of a precious cultural tradition, that spread that tradition and ideas of government over a quarter of the globe? .

Eh. I don't see a 'AHA!' moment, where the European People's Narkom Building (formerly known as Westminster) announces their latest decree from the Continent to dissolve the House of Commons, and the European jackboots surround and arrest all protestors of the decision. I have no doubt that we'll retain the ability to leave legally whenever we want.

Remember, in Britain, all legislative power technically derives from the Monarchy, and HM Government is just that. Her Majesty's Government. They are legally unable to sign the country or the Armed Forces away, for the same reason they could never use them for a dictatorship, i.e. the fact is they don't belong to them. Unless the Monarch decided to officially sign over all legislative power, it will remain here within the UK, and I don't see that ever happening. I mean, Christ, you think this is bad now, the outcry of the wording of the referendum worded 'Give all power to the European President' would raise the roof. And the Monarch would never willingly sign a piece of paper to that effect without some kind of referendum, and no politician would try and force it.

No, legally, I would say regardless of what happens, even if merely a technicality, sovereignty will officially remain within the UK. Too much of our political and legal system is constructed around it. What is far more likely, is that the desire to be a separate nation will simply fade, bar a small corner of nationalism that causes headaches for all politicians involved every decade or so.

It's your right to vote as you see fit, and I respect that. But it's Brexit or nothing, as far as I'm concerned. This is a historical crossroads for Britain. Will a proto-totalitarian, overbearing entity possibly pull off what the French and Germans couldn't over the last thousand years? Or will Britain retake it's own destiny? And that's just how I see on this side of the pond.

We lost our 'own destiny' back when the US forced us to pull out of Suez. Our American debtmasters more or less pulled our foreign policy strings up until the 1980's, we only barely avoided being sucked into Vietnam and that was only because our economy was in such doldrums the idea was a joke in itself.

Since then, we've built our own little niche where we hang around irritating people both in Europe and Washington, but remain too crucial in relations between the two for anyone to say anything about it. We've rebuilt an economy based on everyone else's money (a bit of a throwback to the eighteenth and nineteenth century there), and we trundle along alright. But the only way we can ever wield substantial power again is to harness Europe to our own yoke.

Remember, we're projected to be the largest and most prosperous nation in Europe within twenty years. We're the only ones who retain a military and foreign strike capacity, and we're economically one of the strongest two. Europe has no ability to project anything onto us that we do not care to accept. And we'll drive a steep price in pursuit of our own goals, you can be sure of that. If we end up staying in the EU, we will integrate on a legislative level to a large extent, of that I have no doubt. But the EU may well find their official language is English, their military runs off British produced and maintained tech, and all of their banks are based here. In fact, I'd predict it's not only likely, but probable. We're not going to fade into the night and be a backwater province, no sir. If the EU ends up as the USE, we'll alternate between being in the driving seat and leaning heavily over the shoulder of whoever else is occupying it.

Lord Palmerston wrote:“It is a narrow policy to suppose that this country or that is to be marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of England. We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.”

Ketara wrote:Remember, we're projected to be the largest and most prosperous nation in Europe within twenty years. We're the only ones who retain a military and foreign strike capacity, and we're economically one of the strongest two. Europe has no ability to project anything onto us that we do not care to accept. And we'll drive a steep price in pursuit of our own goals, you can be sure of that. If we end up staying in the EU, we will integrate on a legislative level to a large extent, of that I have no doubt. But the EU may well find their official language is English, their military runs off British produced and maintained tech, and all of their banks are based here. In fact, I'd predict it's not only likely, but probable. We're not going to fade into the night and be a backwater province, no sir. If the EU ends up as the USE, we'll alternate between being in the driving seat and leaning heavily over the shoulder of whoever else is occupying it.

I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. We're on the verge of leaving, yet our Prime Minister had to grovel on his hands and knees for scraps from them. Scraps which are going to be vetoed by other leaders at the first opportunity. And if we vote to stay it'll only get worse.

And the EU has been going after the banks here. Check out this article which shows how the EU sabotages Britain's enterprises. Fishing, Auctions, Clinical Trials...the EU has screwed them all up with it's directives, and the city is next in line. The inner cynic in me thinks that this is deliberate. And I have a suspicion that it's because of Germany. It's not enough for them to have car manufacturing. They want the financial markets as well, but we have them beaten to it. So they're using the EU which, lets face it, they own, to take them.

A quote:

In the wake of the 2008 crisis, a Financial Transaction Tax was proposed by the bureaucrats in Brussels. Britain would have been the country overwhelmingly damaged by this. Our business would have been driven away to America, Singapore and elsewhere. The Chancellor, George Osborne, described the proposal as “a bullet aimed at the heart of London”. Incidentally, what sort of friendly “union” is it that aims a gun at one of the biggest and most successful industries of one of its members?

Would Germany stand for an EU bullet aimed at its car manufacturing? Would they balls.

 Future War Cultist wrote:


I'm afraid I don't share your optimism. We're on the verge of leaving, yet our Prime Minister had to grovel on his hands and knees for scraps from them. Scraps which are going to be vetoed by other leaders at the first opportunity. And if we vote to stay it'll only get worse.

That's because he's acted moronically in several regards here, quite frankly. The immigration issue was one of minimal importance in the grand scheme of things that he tied himself in knots over. What he should have done was ignore it altogether. Like Osborne in economics, Cameron has found himself well out of his depth on the international stage when dealing with issues of import. Love her or hate her, Thatcher knew how to play the EU to British advantage.

And the EU has been going after the banks here. Check out this article which shows how the EU sabotages Britain's enterprises. Fishing, Auctions, Clinical Trials...the EU has screwed them all up with it's directives, and the city is next in line. The inner cynic in me thinks that this is deliberate. And I have a suspicion that it's because of Germany. It's not enough for them to have car manufacturing. They want the financial markets as well, but we have them beaten to it. So they're using the EU which, lets face it, they own, to take them.

A quote:

In the wake of the 2008 crisis, a Financial Transaction Tax was proposed by the bureaucrats in Brussels. Britain would have been the country overwhelmingly damaged by this. Our business would have been driven away to America, Singapore and elsewhere. The Chancellor, George Osborne, described the proposal as “a bullet aimed at the heart of London”. Incidentally, what sort of friendly “union” is it that aims a gun at one of the biggest and most successful industries of one of its members?

I'll be honest, that article is a leetle bit OTT. The Financial Transaction tax came as a knee-jerk reaction to the global economic downturn, and was fended off easily enough. It was far from a illogical move, it just hadn't been thought through. I daresay you could point out hundreds of failed pieces of legislation both here and abroad, it doesn't necessarily mean much. Meanwhile, we got nailed at the fishing end because our good chum Nige was off boozing instead of doing his job. Auction houses? Really? Clinical Trials? I for one, am glad of additional safety regulation that end of things. Sure, it means lost cash, but at the additional safety of the human guinea pigs who have things tested on them. There are some areas where things other than financial needs take priority.

I'm not one to overestimate our power within the EU (crikey, look at my statements for the last two pages!), but this is going too far in the other direction. Does the EU over-legislate? Yes. Do we occasionally have to enact legislation to our detriment? Yes. Are we currently in control of the EU bull? No.

But keep in mind my statements in my last post are future predictions based upon a) current trends in population and gdp within the Eurozone, and b) on the assumption that if we stay, we will gradually become far more engaged as a result of that than we are now.

I mean, sure, you win some, you lose some. We screwed up on the fisheries thing (thanks Nige). But that doesn't mean it can't be reopened. It doesn't mean we can't demand changes and throw our weight around. Because we like to think of ourselves as being outside Europe, Britain tends to take a very stand-offish approach to the whole thing. We don't propose much in the way of policy. We don't dicker over minutae. If we stay, that will have to change, because make no mistake about it. The EU is changing, and if we're going to be part of it? We need to have our hand firmly on the steering wheel. And with our economic power, military, might, and global diplomatic influence, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot. Assuming we get some half-competent people involved over there that is, instead of the castoff political third rankers who everyone wants exiled from Britain or UKIP.

And with our economic power, military, might, and global diplomatic influence, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot.

A lot of remain supporters say that we don't have any of that anymore, which is why we have to let the EU handle things for us.

And like I said before, I think our power within the EU is only set to diminish.

As an outsider, remains had better stop telling the leaves that they are in control of their destiny in the EU. It comes off as pretty insulting after looking at the numbers.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

And with our economic power, military, might, and global diplomatic influence, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot.

A lot of remain supporters say that we don't have any of that anymore, which is why we have to let the EU handle things for us.

And like I said before, I think our power within the EU is only set to diminish.

Then they're fools who don't understand economics or military affairs, to put it bluntly. There's a lot of this 'we need the EU to operate' coming from remain, and a lot of 'the EU is only restraining us' from leave.

As ever though, the truth is somewhere in the middle. We have far more clout/leverage negotiating as a trade bloc, but we have less input in terms of exactly what is negotiated. If we left, we'd have full control, but less clout, so to speak. All things considered, the final result is about the same in terms of what is favourable for us in outcomes either way.

I've been warning of this for months:

Tory rebels calling for leadership challenge. Influential 1922 committee starting to mobilise.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/29/andrew-brigden-conservatives-david-cameron-fractured-eu-debate-election

The naysayers, I'll mention no names, cough...Ketara...cough

shot me down in flames when I predicted this last May,

but as always, Europe proves to be the Tories' Achilles heel. 50 MPs is all that's needed to trigger a challenge.

Just as well Labour are in such a bad state, that they can't take advantage.

 Scrabb wrote:
As an outsider, remains had better stop telling the leaves that they are in control of their destiny in the EU. It comes off as pretty insulting after looking at the numbers.

Indeed.


A friend of mine from the U.K. that I met at an informal shoot some years ago sent me this in an e-mail. He's pro UKIP and pro-Out. The following is what influences his support for Brexit:

* Because we joined a Common Market, not a European superstate.
* Because TARIC adds 50% to the average British family's living costs over a year and wrecks free trade.
* Because CAP means we have to pay lazy European farmers to do nothing.
* Because CFP has wrecked the British fishing industry while doing nothing to maintain fishing stocks.
* Because the EU is the only trading bloc whose share of global GDP is shrinking (down from 24% when we joined to 13% now).
* Because most of our trade is outside the EU.
* Because every EU economy except Germany's is in full-on recession and literally cannot afford to buy our goods.
* Because, since 2008, we have added more jobs to our economy than every other country in the EU combined.
* Because we have no interest in handing our national sovereignty over to countries that have been our enemies for the last 1,000 years so we can help them oppose countries that share our language, culture and way of life.
* Because we value a tradition of democracy and individual liberty which simply does not exist in the other countries of the EU.
* Because we have no interest in having our pockets picked to pay for handouts to the collapsing economies of the Eurozone.
* Because the EU is inevitably going to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions.
* Because we are tired of European criminals migrating her to rob, steal and rape.
* Because our "friends" in the EU see the entire organisation as an excuse to conspire against us and steal from us.
* Because outside the EU we can actually trade on an even footing with friendly countries like Canada, Australia, the US and India instead of being trapped in an economic union where we must gak all over those countries in order to maintain our relationship with powerhouses like Malta, Portugal, Greece and Bulgaria.

And most of this is more true than the "Remain" crowd likes to admit.

Oh yeah, the Tories are not going to survive this referendum in one piece.

Also, remember the Austrian election where the right wing candidate came to within an inch of winning? The Commission said that they wouldn't be engaging with the right wing in any capacity. Well I just found out that there is an EU clause that says that if a member state deviates from 'constitutional norms', the EU has the right to deny them funding and lock them out of decision making processes.

Anyone else feel like this is open to massive abuse?

^

All sound reasons to leave.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh yeah, the Tories are not going to survive this referendum in one piece.

Also, remember the Austrian election where the right wing candidate came to within an inch of winning? The Commission said that they wouldn't be engaging with the right wing in any capacity. Well I just found out that there is an EU clause that says that if a member state deviates from 'constitutional norms', the EU has the right to deny them funding and lock them out of decision making processes.

Anyone else feel like this is open to massive abuse?

^

All sound reasons to leave.

Juncker was warning of 'consequences' if Austria had voted in that right-wing candidate, which tells you all you need to know about Juncker. How dare the Austrians vote express their democratic right to pick a candidate of their own choosing.

As for the Tories, even though I despise them, part of me would love to be a Tory rebel, plotting and scheming on the back benches

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Juncker was warning of 'consequences' if Austria had voted in that right-wing candidate, which tells you all you need to know about Juncker. How dare the Austrians vote express their democratic right to pick a candidate of their own choosing.

"You can believe in any values you want, so long as they are ours". Sums up the EU in a nutshell.

Also, the SNP supporter I know is still being a hypocrite. He says that every single Brexiter is a xenophobic moronic scumbag etc. etc no matter who they are and whatever you say. Yet when a Scottish Nationalist says something embarrassing? No, that's only them, not all of us. And it's a smear to say otherwise so don't.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh yeah, the Tories are not going to survive this referendum in one piece.

Also, remember the Austrian election where the right wing candidate came to within an inch of winning? The Commission said that they wouldn't be engaging with the right wing in any capacity. Well I just found out that there is an EU clause that says that if a member state deviates from 'constitutional norms', the EU has the right to deny them funding and lock them out of decision making processes.

Anyone else feel like this is open to massive abuse?

^

All sound reasons to leave.

Group Think is literally enshrined in the Constitution?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Group Think is literally enshrined in the Constitution?

It certainly is. And people wonder why we're worried.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Group Think is literally enshrined in the Constitution?

It certainly is. And people wonder why we're worried.

Its counter-productive and will do more to aid the Far Right than hinder them. Remember, Hitler and the Nazi's were suppressed and banned in their early days, and look how that ended up.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its counter-productive and will do more to aid the Far Right than hinder them. Remember, Hitler and the Nazi's were suppressed and banned in their early days, and look how that ended up.

So what you're saying is, suppress the far right, and they'll eventually be dealt with by America?

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Its counter-productive and will do more to aid the Far Right than hinder them. Remember, Hitler and the Nazi's were suppressed and banned in their early days, and look how that ended up.

So what you're saying is, suppress the far right, and they'll eventually be dealt with by America?

No. But considering that most of Europe is failing to meet its % of GDP NATO Defence spending targets, that is the logical conclusion.

What's worrying me is despite all these alarming issues with the EU, we are going to vote to remain. I am actually depressed at the idea of it.

Remember that Dutch referendum in which the Dutch people rejected the Ukraine treaty? Yeah, the EU is ignoring it and proceeding anyway.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659147/Dutch-referendum-EU-leaders-Ukraine-deal-Netherlands-no-vote-Juncker-Merkel-Hollande

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Remember that Dutch referendum in which the Dutch people rejected the Ukraine treaty? Yeah, the EU is ignoring it and proceeding anyway.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659147/Dutch-referendum-EU-leaders-Ukraine-deal-Netherlands-no-vote-Juncker-Merkel-Hollande

I'm not surprised. At least the Dutch were given a voice on a matter, unlike the rest of us.

Awesome vid on Brexit from Pat Condell on Youtube:

Pat condell a legend.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Remember that Dutch referendum in which the Dutch people rejected the Ukraine treaty? Yeah, the EU is ignoring it and proceeding anyway.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659147/Dutch-referendum-EU-leaders-Ukraine-deal-Netherlands-no-vote-Juncker-Merkel-Hollande

And? The whole point of a democracy is that one person or group does not get to dictate the actions of the majority. Or are we not criticizing the EU for being too democratic for listening to the majority of MEPs rather than one country?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Remember that Dutch referendum in which the Dutch people rejected the Ukraine treaty? Yeah, the EU is ignoring it and proceeding anyway.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659147/Dutch-referendum-EU-leaders-Ukraine-deal-Netherlands-no-vote-Juncker-Merkel-Hollande

I'm not surprised. At least the Dutch were given a voice on a matter, unlike the rest of us.

I know, right? If only we were given the opportunity to voice our opinions on a matter as a nation. We could call it some sort of "EU Referendum", and hold it on the 23rd of June!

A question:

What is the point of the EU parliament if it cannot pass or enact any laws and exists only to rubber stamp what the EU commission presents to it.

The appearance of democracy?

OUT campaign reveals plans for an Australian points style system for immigration in the event of BREXIT

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/31/migrants-will-need-good-english-in-post-brexit-uk-says-leave-campaign

Now, we can all read, or at least I hope we can all read

but the reason why I'm posting this is to get opinions from Australian dakka members on how their points system works? Is it any good?

Perhaps somebody like Sebster can answer these questions.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Remember that Dutch referendum in which the Dutch people rejected the Ukraine treaty? Yeah, the EU is ignoring it and proceeding anyway.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659147/Dutch-referendum-EU-leaders-Ukraine-deal-Netherlands-no-vote-Juncker-Merkel-Hollande

And? The whole point of a democracy is that one person or group does not get to dictate the actions of the majority. Or are we not criticizing the EU for being too democratic for listening to the majority of MEPs rather than one country?

But that's not at all what's happening is it? Only one member state out of 28 was allowed a vote on the issue. We don't know what the electorates of the other 27 states want, because they haven't been asked. That's not democracy.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Remember that Dutch referendum in which the Dutch people rejected the Ukraine treaty? Yeah, the EU is ignoring it and proceeding anyway.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/659147/Dutch-referendum-EU-leaders-Ukraine-deal-Netherlands-no-vote-Juncker-Merkel-Hollande

And? The whole point of a democracy is that one person or group does not get to dictate the actions of the majority. Or are we not criticizing the EU for being too democratic for listening to the majority of MEPs rather than one country?

But that's not at all what's happening is it? Only one member state out of 28 was allowed a vote on the issue. We don't know what the electorates of the other 27 states want, because they haven't been asked. That's not democracy.

It only riles up the masses. No need to bother them with the pesky minutiae of running an anti democratic institution.

Handy guide to the Australian points system

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/01/what-is-australia-points-based-immigration-system-brexit

I think I have enough points to qualify and be Australian

Donald Tusk admits that total integration is the aim of the EU and that they are aware that they are doing this against the will of the people of the EU

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/05/30-pec-speech-epp/


To quote the article:

'Obsessed with the idea of instant and total integration, we failed to notice that ordinary people, the citizens of Europe do not share our Euro-enthusiasm'

So it appears that the claims that the Brexiter were 'living in fantasy land' when they claimed that the EU was aimed at total integration were wrong, that is the EU aim (which I think we all knew anyway) - as said straight from the organisations head.