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 Da Boss wrote:
Ketara: Cheers. As usual I am a bit firey on this topic as it is close to my heart.

The British people I work with are all very anxious, many are rushing to get German citizenship if they can.

I am not surprised. There are many people with substantial interests on the Continent who Brexit will be a blow for(a comment just flashed up on the BBC from one bloke who says he stores his two yachts in Europe, and this might make it difficult for him-somehow I am less than sympathetic to him specifically).

Michael Gove, Justice Secretary, just released his own statement on why he backs to Leave.

https://www.facebook.com/voteleave/posts/555378651305730:0

Cameron's "negotiations" are nothing more than chicken feed.

I want to leave. Because then I hope the whole thing goes down in pretty flames and explosions before being reborn like a beautiful democratic Pheonix we can be proud of.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
There's nothing undemocratic about it - how would you propose that the complex interests of 27 nations are best represented? This is no different to a national government proposing a law and then the national parliament getting to vote on it.

And a big part of the failure has been British obstructionism dude. That's my point.

Then shouldn't you be in favour of a Brexit so that British obstruction is removed?

Read the rest of my posts. I am at best ambivalent about a Brexit, but I'm coming round to thinking it's the best thing for Europe (though not for Ireland or Britain).

Edit to add: Gove is an awful tool. Doesn't surprise me that he's going for Brexit. But then, Osborne is possibly the most hateable man in Europe, and he's pushing to stay in, so....

@Da Boss

I thought the whole point of Ireland gaining its independence from Britain was for it to become an independent nation that makes its own decisions. In other words, Irelands does what's best for Ireland, and Britain does what is best for Britain.

Now the Irish are saying they need Britain in the EU or it'll damage Ireland? What kind of Irish independence is that

I heard the same nonsense during the Scottish referendum campaign that Scotland leaving the UK would be bad for the peace process in NI, and now I'm hearing it again with regard to BREXIT.

With all due respect, is there any political event on Earth that's good for the peace process in Ireland?

If somebody came out and said that China choosing a new Chairman of the Chinese Communist party was bad for Ireland, it wouldn't be anymore sillier than some of the nonsense being spouted by the IN campaign.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Cameron's "negotiations" are nothing more than chicken feed.

I want to leave. Because then I hope the whole thing goes down in pretty flames and explosions before being reborn like a beautiful democratic Pheonix we can be proud of.

If you hope that's going to happen there's a bridge I have for sale

Do_I_Not_Like_That: Quite simply, it is realism. It would be lovely if Ireland was so totally independent that what happened in it's biggest neighbour had no effect, but that is not true.

Your flippant remarks about the Peace Process do not warrant a serious answer. Come back if you want to have an actual discussion about it.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
.... and Britain does what is best for Britain.

Which is highly unlikely to be leaving the EU.

 Da Boss wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That: Quite simply, it is realism. It would be lovely if Ireland was so totally independent that what happened in it's biggest neighbour had no effect, but that is not true.

Your flippant remarks about the Peace Process do not warrant a serious answer. Come back if you want to have an actual discussion about it.

To be honest, I don't agree with the notion that leaving the EU will cause the Troubles to reignite in Northern Ireland.


It was more a matter of both sides simply got tired of the violence, and were willing to meet each other half-way for a change. That had far more of an impact in ending the Troubles than a bunch of foreign bureaucrats in Belgium.

I certainly hope you are correct about that. It's a sideline to this discussion anyhow, sorry for the OT guys.

I can fully see the stay vote winning. Poeple fear the uncertainty of change and will always defend the status quo. Even if the status quo is being assimilated by an unelected fascist mob.

I just hope voters realise its now or never if its to happen. There will never be another referendum. Assimilation will be complete before another could possibly take place in a generation, and a vote to stay WILL be twisted into a vote of confidence in the European Project to further speed things up.

Dropbear Victim wrote:
I can fully see the stay vote winning. Poeple fear the uncertainty of change and will always defend the status quo. Even if the status quo is being assimilated by an unelected fascist mob.

I just hope voters realise its now or never if its to happen. There will never be another referendum. Assimilation will be complete before another could possibly take place in a generation, and a vote to stay WILL be twisted into a vote of confidence in the European Project to further speed things up.

Who the feth are you calling fascist?

Dropbear Victim wrote:
Even if the status quo is being assimilated by an unelected fascist mob.

The horrifically biased reporting on the EU by the UK press is what leads to such idiotic statements.

They are not fascist.

They are foreign, which is far worse for some people.....

 Da Boss wrote:

Dropbear Victim wrote:
I can fully see the stay vote winning. Poeple fear the uncertainty of change and will always defend the status quo. Even if the status quo is being assimilated by an unelected fascist mob.

I just hope voters realise its now or never if its to happen. There will never be another referendum. Assimilation will be complete before another could possibly take place in a generation, and a vote to stay WILL be twisted into a vote of confidence in the European Project to further speed things up.

Who the feth are you calling fascist?

The european project, Brussells etc.

That you have taken a slight at european officials as a slight against you speaks volumes.

But yes, let the faux-outrage flow. Maybe a mod will hide my post or ban me and you can go back to your cosy bubble attacking the brits the way you recently beatdown those greedy greeks.

He hasn't just simply taken a "slight" as a slight against himself, he's reacted to the absurdity of calling something which isn't fascist, fascist.

Dropbear Victim wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:

Dropbear Victim wrote:
I can fully see the stay vote winning. Poeple fear the uncertainty of change and will always defend the status quo. Even if the status quo is being assimilated by an unelected fascist mob.

I just hope voters realise its now or never if its to happen. There will never be another referendum. Assimilation will be complete before another could possibly take place in a generation, and a vote to stay WILL be twisted into a vote of confidence in the European Project to further speed things up.

Who the feth are you calling fascist?

The european project, Brussells etc.

That you have taken a slight at european officials as a slight against you speaks volumes.

But yes, let the faux-outrage flow. Maybe a mod will hide my post or ban me and you can go back to your cosy bubble attacking the brits the way you recently beatdown those greedy greeks.

He's Irish, for a start. And a perfectly nice fellow to boot, I've shared a cuppa with him. He's passionate about Europe as a federal entity, which is his right. No need to draw the battlelines.

Secondly, you may want to examine the use of the word 'facist'. I'm hardly a fan of Europe, but the tag applies to them about as well as 'communist' or 'zionist'.

Call the EU fascist and you imply that supporters of the EU are supporters of Fascism. So yeah, you do that, I am calling you out on it.

Sick of the crap that gets thrown around these debates.

 Da Boss wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That: Quite simply, it is realism. It would be lovely if Ireland was so totally independent that what happened in it's biggest neighbour had no effect, but that is not true.

Your flippant remarks about the Peace Process do not warrant a serious answer. Come back if you want to have an actual discussion about it.

It's not a flippant remark when Ulster Unionist politicians were saying that Scotland leaving the UK would be bad for the peace process.

It's not a flippant remark when an IN supporter highlights the peace process as a reason to vote yes in his column for the Guardian newspaper.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/20/how-to-argue-against-brexit-eu-fate-europe-uk-at-stake

And here's the relevant quote if you don't want to read the whole article:

Brexit would be disastrous for Ireland. The former Irish prime minister John Bruton says it would “undo much of the work of the peace process and create huge questions over borders and labour market access”. There are more than 380,000 Irish citizens living in Britain, who do have a vote in this referendum, and millions of Brits (including me) with Irish ancestry. If you care about Ireland, vote to remain.

So, I've just presented you with black and white evidence that the remain campaign is using the risk to the peace process as an argument to remain in, so remind me again why I'm getting blamed for raising the argument when it's the IN campaign who brought it up?

If you can't refute an argument, label it flippant and ignore it.

Leave the EU. I want to see the entire flawed concept burn.

Dropbear Victim wrote:
I can fully see the stay vote winning. Poeple fear the uncertainty of change and will always defend the status quo. Even if the status quo is being assimilated by an unelected fascist mob.

I just hope voters realise its now or never if its to happen. There will never be another referendum. Assimilation will be complete before another could possibly take place in a generation, and a vote to stay WILL be twisted into a vote of confidence in the European Project to further speed things up.

The EU made be many things. But I wouldn't exactly call it a "fascist" organization.


As for the rest, I certainly hope not. As an American, the last thing I want to see is a trusted ally, the heart and soul of the English speaking world, the ancestral homeland of our Founding Fathers, and major inspiration for our American system, pass into the mists of history.

The problem is that the negotiations and referendum are nothing to do with Britain's place in Europe, and everything to do with the Conservative Party's place in the UK. Cameron wants to shut up the anti-EU wing of the party else they will start to create the same kind of shenanigans they did for John Major in the early 90s. He also wants to reduce UKIP's baneful influence. The Conservatives have a wafer thin majority that was gained off the back of a very limited plurality at the last general election, so anything that damages the party's membership is a serious danger to Cameron and Osborne's chances of staying in power.

This will work if the referendum result is to get out, but that isn't what Cameron wants as we already know he supports staying in. If the result is to stay, it probably won't shut up all of the antis, and it certainly won't shut up UKIP.

Meanwhile, serious issues like EU bureaucracy and democratic deficit are better tackled from within the EU than outside, by cooperating with other members who have similar concerns. If Britain leaves, that opportunity is lost for a generation. If Britain stays, Cameron may have used up so much political capital with his footling negotiations that our influence on the larger matters will have been seriously reduced for a while. Either way, the EU isn't going to go away, so Britain has to continue to deal with it basically as it is constructed now.

So really, this referendum does absolutely nothing useful for anyone, except the antis if we get a vote to leave.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

As for the rest, I certainly hope not. As an American, the last thing I want to see is a trusted ally, the heart and soul of the English speaking world, the ancestral homeland of our Founding Fathers, and major inspiration for our American system, pass into the mists of history.

I don't think we're vanishing anytime, even if we do end up as part of a greater whole. The British Empire's legacy, followed by its successor speaking the same language, has more or less guaranteed the primacy of English as the global language for the forseeable next few hundred years.

We might well find that if Britain do end up integrating, Europe ends end up more anglicised than they might like, instead of us being continentalised. Da Boss has lamented the lack of British participation in the project, but if we started throwing our weight around in the manner he would like, Germany's dominance might well find itself eroded. We're currently projected to end up the largest of everyone in terms of population in about twenty years time, and GDP tends to correlate reasonably well. Throw it forward half a century, and it is extremely likely we may well be the biggest and economically/militarily strongest power in the EU by a decent margin.

In that scenario, we may well end up in the driving seat of the integrationist train. We could have a Conservative Prime Minister of Europe in sixty years! And so the British Empire rises again.....

 Ketara wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

As for the rest, I certainly hope not. As an American, the last thing I want to see is a trusted ally, the heart and soul of the English speaking world, the ancestral homeland of our Founding Fathers, and major inspiration for our American system, pass into the mists of history.

I don't think we're vanishing anytime, even if we do end up as part of a greater whole. The British Empire's legacy, followed by its successor speaking the same language, has more or less guaranteed the primacy of English as the global language for the forseeable next few hundred years.

We might well find that if Britain do end up integrating, Europe ends end up more anglicised than they might like, instead of us being continentalised. Da Boss has lamented the lack of British participation in the project, but if we started throwing our weight around in the manner he would like, Germany's dominance might well find itself eroded. We're currently projected to end up the largest of everyone in terms of population in about twenty years time, and GDP tends to correlate reasonably well. Throw it forward half a century, and it is extremely likely we may well be the biggest and economically/militarily strongest power in the EU by a decent margin.

In that scenario, we may well end up in the driving seat of the integrationist train. We could have a Conservative Prime Minister of Europe in sixty years! And so the British Empire rises again.....

The idea of the French being forced to take afternoon tea has a certain appeal to it.

 Ketara wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

As for the rest, I certainly hope not. As an American, the last thing I want to see is a trusted ally, the heart and soul of the English speaking world, the ancestral homeland of our Founding Fathers, and major inspiration for our American system, pass into the mists of history.

I don't think we're vanishing anytime, even if we do end up as part of a greater whole. The British Empire's legacy, followed by its successor speaking the same language, has more or less guaranteed the primacy of English as the global language for the forseeable next few hundred years.

We might well find that if Britain do end up integrating, Europe ends end up more anglicised than they might like, instead of us being continentalised. Da Boss has lamented the lack of British participation in the project, but if we started throwing our weight around in the manner he would like, Germany's dominance might well find itself eroded. We're currently projected to end up the largest of everyone in terms of population in about twenty years time, and GDP tends to correlate reasonably well. Throw it forward half a century, and it is extremely likely we may well be the biggest and economically/militarily strongest power in the EU by a decent margin.

In that scenario, we may well end up in the driving seat of the integrationist train. We could have a Conservative Prime Minister of Europe in sixty years! And so the British Empire rises again.....

Ketara, I've also seen those population projections for the UK in 50 years time, and we're projected to have a population of 100 million plus or something.

I do wonder how our small island is going to cope...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

The problem is that the negotiations and referendum are nothing to do with Britain's place in Europe, and everything to do with the Conservative Party's place in the UK. Cameron wants to shut up the anti-EU wing of the party else they will start to create the same kind of shenanigans they did for John Major in the early 90s. He also wants to reduce UKIP's baneful influence. The Conservatives have a wafer thin majority that was gained off the back of a very limited plurality at the last general election, so anything that damages the party's membership is a serious danger to Cameron and Osborne's chances of staying in power.

This will work if the referendum result is to get out, but that isn't what Cameron wants as we already know he supports staying in. If the result is to stay, it probably won't shut up all of the antis, and it certainly won't shut up UKIP.

Meanwhile, serious issues like EU bureaucracy and democratic deficit are better tackled from within the EU than outside, by cooperating with other members who have similar concerns. If Britain leaves, that opportunity is lost for a generation. If Britain stays, Cameron may have used up so much political capital with his footling negotiations that our influence on the larger matters will have been seriously reduced for a while. Either way, the EU isn't going to go away, so Britain has to continue to deal with it basically as it is constructed now.

So really, this referendum does absolutely nothing useful for anyone, except the antis if we get a vote to leave.

I disagree. I think the more extreme wing of the Tories defected to UKIP ages ago.

But as you correctly point out, even an IN vote won't help the Tories. If the Scottish referendum is anything to go by, IN needs to win by at least 60% to put the issue to bed for good. Look at how the SNP swept up at last May's general election despite losing the referendum.

If IN only win the vote by 50 something per cent, then I can see UKIP seriously damaging the Tories at the next general election, and the next Tory leader will likely be a Euro-Sceptic, as the Tory grassroots will rebel.

IN need to win big or the Europe issue will fester for years.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

As for the rest, I certainly hope not. As an American, the last thing I want to see is a trusted ally, the heart and soul of the English speaking world, the ancestral homeland of our Founding Fathers, and major inspiration for our American system, pass into the mists of history.

I don't think we're vanishing anytime, even if we do end up as part of a greater whole. The British Empire's legacy, followed by its successor speaking the same language, has more or less guaranteed the primacy of English as the global language for the forseeable next few hundred years.

We might well find that if Britain do end up integrating, Europe ends end up more anglicised than they might like, instead of us being continentalised. Da Boss has lamented the lack of British participation in the project, but if we started throwing our weight around in the manner he would like, Germany's dominance might well find itself eroded. We're currently projected to end up the largest of everyone in terms of population in about twenty years time, and GDP tends to correlate reasonably well. Throw it forward half a century, and it is extremely likely we may well be the biggest and economically/militarily strongest power in the EU by a decent margin.

In that scenario, we may well end up in the driving seat of the integrationist train. We could have a Conservative Prime Minister of Europe in sixty years! And so the British Empire rises again.....

Ketara, I've also seen those population projections for the UK in 50 years time, and we're projected to have a population of 100 million plus or something.

I do wonder how our small island is going to cope...

.

The country actually has plenty of room. Everyone just happens to be concentrated in the South East. If Germany/China declines in line with predictions, I would expect manufacturing to gradually begin to revive in Britain. In that scenario, the 'Workshop of the world' may well make a comeback if the population is there, and the rents are cheap enough in the Midlands. It would require some extremely careful economic nurturing, but it's far from impossible.

On another note, I'd like to encourage as many dakka members as possible to really get involved with the referendum, regardless of how you're going to vote.

The Scottish referendum was a great experience for me, writing letters to newspapers, handing out leaflets, going to town hall meetings and debates etc etc

I know people have work/family commitments, but if you can get involved with a campaign group, you'll enjoy it and British democracy will get a welcome boost.

 Ketara wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

As for the rest, I certainly hope not. As an American, the last thing I want to see is a trusted ally, the heart and soul of the English speaking world, the ancestral homeland of our Founding Fathers, and major inspiration for our American system, pass into the mists of history.

I don't think we're vanishing anytime, even if we do end up as part of a greater whole. The British Empire's legacy, followed by its successor speaking the same language, has more or less guaranteed the primacy of English as the global language for the forseeable next few hundred years.

We might well find that if Britain do end up integrating, Europe ends end up more anglicised than they might like, instead of us being continentalised. Da Boss has lamented the lack of British participation in the project, but if we started throwing our weight around in the manner he would like, Germany's dominance might well find itself eroded. We're currently projected to end up the largest of everyone in terms of population in about twenty years time, and GDP tends to correlate reasonably well. Throw it forward half a century, and it is extremely likely we may well be the biggest and economically/militarily strongest power in the EU by a decent margin.

In that scenario, we may well end up in the driving seat of the integrationist train. We could have a Conservative Prime Minister of Europe in sixty years! And so the British Empire rises again.....

Ketara, I've also seen those population projections for the UK in 50 years time, and we're projected to have a population of 100 million plus or something.

I do wonder how our small island is going to cope...

.

The country actually has plenty of room. Everyone just happens to be concentrated in the South East. If Germany/China declines in line with predictions, I would expect manufacturing to gradually begin to revive in Britain. In that scenario, the 'Workshop of the world' may well make a comeback if the population is there, and the rents are cheap enough in the Midlands. It would require some extremely careful economic nurturing, but it's far from impossible.

I was under the impression that the tech industry was the big thing in Britain nowadays. I know that the U.S. DoD has big contracts with firms that originated, or is based, in the United Kingdom.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
On another note, I'd like to encourage as many dakka members as possible to really get involved with the referendum, regardless of how you're going to vote.

The Scottish referendum was a great experience for me, writing letters to newspapers, handing out leaflets, going to town hall meetings and debates etc etc

I know people have work/family commitments, but if you can get involved with a campaign group, you'll enjoy it and British democracy will get a welcome boost.

Agreed, everyone should vote and should be involved. This is a really big even that could change our country for hundreds of years. I'm talking Henry VIII wants a divorce kind of level.

One of the things that I've been pondering about this. The UK politics being the way it is, particularly the Conservative Party's politics being the way it is too.

It seems to me that, politically, overall, it would be in Cameron's best interests to, just, well... Be honest and up-front.

I know, I know, politicians, honesty, up-frontness... Politicians, am I mad?

Well, probably. But let me think this through. Cameron personally believes the UK should stay in the EU, ok, sure, fair enough, he's allowed to believe that. But there is a national interest and will (of some percentage), to do otherwise. There's some percentage of will in the Conservative party to do otherwise.

It seems that spinless facts, really would be in his interest. Going, "ok, yeah, I believe this and this is the reason. But there are these other arguments and these projections that say otherwise."

That way, the party can't be legitimately annoyed, because facts and he's giving their point of view too. He's stating his own opinion, therefore he's doing the whole 'leading' thing and the people are informed, which is supposed to be good thing but rarely ever happens.

Do_I_Not_Like_That: The fact is both Scotland's separation AND brexit really DO have implications for the Peace Process. Everything is connected and nothing happens in a vacuum. I think it's okay for people to bring in relevant facts to make their arguments - it makes more sense than ignoring said facts.

I'm going to try my best to behave and not be too angry in this thread, but Europe is a subject I am very passionate about so please forgive me for being a bit hotheaded the odd time here.

I took umbrage at your suggestion that the Peace Process is irrelevant to the discussion - it is relevant, as are many other things. How relevant? Well, that's definitely up for debate. But I reckon Europe had a fair role to play as a mediator and a neutral forum for the process, and that is a comfort to a lot of Nationalists who have pretty decent reasons to distrust the British government.

Anyhow. Like I said, I'm glad the referendum is happening, but I do not want Europe twisted and broken by the process. I hope it can happen, the result is respected, and both the UK and the EU can continue with a minimum of disruption. But I fear that this is not a likely outcome.

It is the one thing I give Cameron a fair bit of credit for - he didn't have to allow this, or the Scottish referendum, and he's made a rod for his own back in doing so. But he still did it. Much as I dislike the man and his politics, he's a democrat in that respect.