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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Theres no better way to get someone to vote opposite to what you want than insisting what horrible, bigoted people they are. The arrogant bullying attitude displayed by Silent Puffin helped fuel the Leave campaign.
People are sick of being abused and bullied and labelled bigots for daring to oppose the EU, and they are sick of being told what to think.
Well, the problem is that there are bigots who support leave.
It’s all about immigration. It’s not about trade or Europe or anything like that, it’s all about immigration. It’s to stop Muslims coming into this country. Simple as that.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Theres no better way to get someone to vote opposite to what you want than insisting what horrible, bigoted people they are. The arrogant bullying attitude displayed by Silent Puffin helped fuel the Leave campaign.
People are sick of being abused and bullied and labelled bigots for daring to oppose the EU, and they are sick of being told what to think.
Well, the problem is that there are bigots who support leave.
It’s all about immigration. It’s not about trade or Europe or anything like that, it’s all about immigration. It’s to stop Muslims coming into this country. Simple as that.
And people wonder why I do not like the leave decision or the remain decision.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Theres no better way to get someone to vote opposite to what you want than insisting what horrible, bigoted people they are. The arrogant bullying attitude displayed by Silent Puffin helped fuel the Leave campaign.
People are sick of being abused and bullied and labelled bigots for daring to oppose the EU, and they are sick of being told what to think.
Well, the problem is that there are bigots who support leave.
It’s all about immigration. It’s not about trade or Europe or anything like that, it’s all about immigration. It’s to stop Muslims coming into this country. Simple as that.
Right, and do you seriously think that this accounts for all 17 million people who voted Leave?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 15:17:01
Right, and do you seriously think that this accounts for all 17 million people who voted Leave?
All? No.
But do I think that some people actually thought that EU membership affected UK immigration policy for people coming in from outside the EU? Yes, I think quite a lot of people thought that. The thought that there are people who are so uninformed about the very issues they are voting for is quite scary for everyone, I think.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 15:23:01
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Knockagh wrote: As a out voter who vacillated between in and out for weeks, the reaction from some within the remain camp has confirmed all my fears. A bunch of middle class elite snobs who can't stand the fact that poorer people have stood up to them and now they are embarking on a bullying campaign that shows clearly how undemocratic they are. Where is your national spirit?? Come on guys lets move forward, this country has come through much worse and survived. Not getting your own way isn't cause to behave like a child.
Basically my position too. The level of moon-howling drama has been quite unedifying. I can understand being annoyed that your side lost, but I have heard some spectacularly stupid things in the last 24 hours. Some guy saying "I'm glad I got to see Vienna and Paris when I had the chance". FFS, you'd have thought we suddently turned into North Korea overnight.
There is a misconception going around that by leaving the EU we will be:
-Blocked from leaving the UK -Are guaranteed to lose Scotland, London and NI
-Will not be able to trade with anyone for the next decade
-Blocked from leaving the UK
Do you mean blocked from leaving the EU?
If so that is possible. There could be a stich up in the House of Commons when MP's vote against the bill to petition Article 50.
-Are guaranteed to lose Scotland, London and NI
None of those are guaranteed.
Scotland is very likely if the SNP get a deal with Brussels next week. Doing so is possible as a means of punishing England but is not strictly legal under EU law. There is an equal possibility that Scotland is told that the referendumm is bionding and they are able to apply as a new nation joining, after a few years delay. Brussels can do that out of spite by keeping Scotland poor and on the outside as a further attempt at punishment.
All this depends on whether Juncker gets his way, who really really wants to stick the knife in, or Merkel.
Scotland might attempt to indyref anyway even if EU exit is guaranteed, it might be stoppable under those circumstances, if Westminster refuses to allow the existing mandate to be overruled. If Scotland is invited in by a special arrangement there will be a cat in hells chance of stopping it. I would go as far as to say that Scotland would be very foolish not to jump at the chance, and I don't like the idea of a break up one bit.
The big problem there is that the EU knows Scotland will be a passenger economy. This will not matter if the whole exercise is to stick the knife into London.
London wont happen, any petition for Lexit will be laughed out by the UK. It is very normal for a capital city to have a disproportionate economy to the surrounding territories. Most nations have primacy of a single city.
As for Northern Ireland, the Troubles might kick off again, but that isnt too likely, but is possible. Sinn Fein is calling for a border poll but the mandate to leave the Uk isnt there by all indications, and the Good Friday agreement does stipulate one unless this is the case.
-Will not be able to trade with anyone for the next decade
Boris Johnson got one bit right, the idea that the UK wont be able to fashion trade agreements, or lacks expertise in doing so is ludicrous. Even Juncker admits this is one skill at which the Uk has proven itself well versed and the EU itself has relied in UK expertise in trade negotiations.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Of course not. But when voters openly state that they voted leave to stop immigration of citizens from Syria, Iraq, Africa (?!)? One has to stop and think for a moment whether some voters were well informed of what they were voting for.
There is a misconception going around that by leaving the EU we will be:
-Blocked from leaving the UK -Are guaranteed to lose Scotland, London and NI
-Will not be able to trade with anyone for the next decade
No we will not be blocked from the EU. In fact many European countries although will not want to us to leave will take a hard line on it because they won't want to see copy cat referendum calls and a harsh punishment might put a few people off (although given how well that worked with Remain camp that might be risky thinking)
Almost certainly Scotland will leave. The benefits of being in the UK will be vastly reduced (especially with an even more south east focussed government). If the UK is in a recession by that point the economic argument will not stand up and we have to remember that it will only take a 5% swing in the vote in Scotland for them to leave.
NI is more interesting - the initial leave suggestion came from Sinn Feinn (sp?) and they have always been pro-Ireland. A referendum there could risk opening up wounds that only have just started to heal because the argument won't solely be about the EU or not.
London is more interesting, it could leave the UK but that probably won't happen with anything less than a civil war (lets hope not!). In reality many other people through England and Wales also voted to remain in (yes there was a concentration in London) but there were other areas too (e.g. Leicester my home town, Bristol, Manchester etc). There would be the argument that rather than just London that maybe the country was split in two and allow the 50% that wish to remain in the EU go there and the 50% in the other half.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 15:23:29
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Whirlwind wrote: A referendum there could risk opening up wounds that only have just started to heal because the argument won't solely be about the EU or not.
There is almost certainly going to be a hard border in Ireland, it will be an EU frontier after all, and if that happens it will be a significant set back.
I don't think that much will happen in NI until Scotland becomes independent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 15:29:17
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Theres no better way to get someone to vote opposite to what you want than insisting what horrible, bigoted people they are. The arrogant bullying attitude displayed by Silent Puffin helped fuel the Leave campaign.
People are sick of being abused and bullied and labelled bigots for daring to oppose the EU, and they are sick of being told what to think.
Agreed. Blind accusations of racism only make us blind. I voted for Brexit because I do not like how the EU works. I don't really care where people come from.
Whirlwind wrote: A referendum there could risk opening up wounds that only have just started to heal because the argument won't solely be about the EU or not.
There is almost certainly going to be a hard border in Ireland, it will be an EU frontier after all, and if that will be a significant set back.
And if not between RoI and N. Ireland, then there will need to be one at every port with connections to Northern Ireland. Otherwise EU people can fly to Ireland, cross freely into Northern Ireland and then just get a ferry into England/Wales.
But that's all silly anyway as there is no way that the UK will get a trade deal that doesn't include free movement of EU citizens and the right to work in the UK.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Knockagh wrote: As a out voter who vacillated between in and out for weeks, the reaction from some within the remain camp has confirmed all my fears. A bunch of middle class elite snobs who can't stand the fact that poorer people have stood up to them and now they are embarking on a bullying campaign that shows clearly how undemocratic they are. Where is your national spirit?? Come on guys lets move forward, this country has come through much worse and survived. Not getting your own way isn't cause to behave like a child.
Basically my position too. The level of moon-howling drama has been quite unedifying. I can understand being annoyed that your side lost, but I have heard some spectacularly stupid things in the last 24 hours. Some guy saying "I'm glad I got to see Vienna and Paris when I had the chance". FFS, you'd have thought we suddently turned into North Korea overnight.
There is a misconception going around that by leaving the EU we will be:
-Blocked from leaving the UK -Are guaranteed to lose Scotland, London and NI -Will not be able to trade with anyone for the next decade
-Blocked from leaving the UK
Do you mean blocked from leaving the EU?
If so that is possible. There could be a stich up in the House of Commons when MP's vote against the bill to petition Article 50.
-Are guaranteed to lose Scotland, London and NI
None of those are guaranteed. Scotland is very likely if the SNP get a deal with Brussels next week. Doing so is possible as a means of punishing England but is not strictly legal under EU law. There is an equal possibility that Scotland is told that the referendumm is bionding and they are able to apply as a new nation joining, after a few years delay. Brussels can do that out of spite by keeping Scotland poor and on the outside as a further attempt at punishment. All this depends on whether Juncker gets his way, who really really wants to stick the knife in, or Merkel. Scotland might attempt to indyref anyway even if EU exit is guaranteed, it might be stoppable under those circumstances, if Westminster refuses to allow the existing mandate to be overruled. If Scotland is invited in by a special arrangement there will be a cat in hells chance of stopping it. I would go as far as to say that Scotland would be very foolish not to jump at the chance, and I don't like the idea of a break up one bit. The big problem there is that the EU knows Scotland will be a passenger economy. This will not matter if the whole exercise is to stick the knife into London.
London wont happen, any petition for Lexit will be laughed out by the UK. It is very normal for a capital city to have a disproportionate economy to the surrounding territories. Most nations have primacy of a single city.
As for Northern Ireland, the Troubles might kick off again, but that isnt too likely, but is possible. Sinn Fein is calling for a border poll but the mandate to leave the Uk isnt there by all indications, and the Good Friday agreement does stipulate one unless this is the case.
-Will not be able to trade with anyone for the next decade
Boris Johnson got one bit right, the idea that the UK wont be able to fashion trade agreements, or lacks expertise in doing so is ludicrous. Even Juncker admits this is one skill at which the Uk has proven itself well versed and the EU itself has relied in UK expertise in trade negotiations.
Hence why I called them misconceptions. Read the context, not just the bullets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 15:32:28
But do I think that some people actually thought that EU membership affected UK immigration policy for people coming in from outside the EU? Yes, I think quite a lot of people thought that. The thought that there are people who are so uninformed about the very issues they are voting for is quite scary for everyone, I think.
The EU severely mishandled the immigrant crisis in the wake of the de-stabilisation of Syria, and at one point was insisting on nations accepting quotas of EU refugees before the EU itself started closing borders.
Yes most non European migrants will not come through with existing EU passports or via a Brussels dictated policy. However some did and the mishandling was remembered at the ballot box.
Also it was noted that when Merkel wanted the doors shut she got her wish very quickly. When Cameron said same earlier Brussels wanted the Uk to put up and shut up and take more refugees.
The crisis showed the disparirty of power at the heart of Europe, the UK was a major player but had very little influence for its size because it was never part of the club.
The next problem was people like Abu Hamza who the UK tried to deport and the EU overruled and allowed to stay. While this was but one man, admittedly a particularly sordid one, people remembered that too, and those that forgot were reminded in the Sun and Daily Mail and Express.
You are entirely right that some people believed that Leave would be a stepping stone to expulsion, but only a handful of idiots will believe that getting out of the EU means no more immigrants, other might have voted Leave to protest the lack of action.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Whirlwind wrote: A referendum there could risk opening up wounds that only have just started to heal because the argument won't solely be about the EU or not.
There is almost certainly going to be a hard border in Ireland, it will be an EU frontier after all, and if that will be a significant set back.
And if not between RoI and N. Ireland, then there will need to be one at every port with connections to Northern Ireland. Otherwise EU people can fly to Ireland, cross freely into Northern Ireland and then just get a ferry into England/Wales.
But that's all silly anyway as there is no way that the UK will get a trade deal that doesn't include free movement of EU citizens and the right to work in the UK.
An EU country campaigning for EU reform, or looking for an EU exit could be capable of trying to independently sign a deal with the UK that does not include free movement. but this will cause them some serious EU backlash.
OTOH, the EU states aren't the only trading states in the world, with China expressing a trade interest, and Russia stating it would like to look into closer ties with the UK.
Knockagh wrote: As a out voter who vacillated between in and out for weeks, the reaction from some within the remain camp has confirmed all my fears. A bunch of middle class elite snobs who can't stand the fact that poorer people have stood up to them and now they are embarking on a bullying campaign that shows clearly how undemocratic they are. Where is your national spirit?? Come on guys lets move forward, this country has come through much worse and survived. Not getting your own way isn't cause to behave like a child.
Basically my position too. The level of moon-howling drama has been quite unedifying. I can understand being annoyed that your side lost, but I have heard some spectacularly stupid things in the last 24 hours. Some guy saying "I'm glad I got to see Vienna and Paris when I had the chance". FFS, you'd have thought we suddently turned into North Korea overnight.
There is a misconception going around that by leaving the EU we will be:
-Blocked from leaving the UK -Are guaranteed to lose Scotland, London and NI
-Will not be able to trade with anyone for the next decade
-Blocked from leaving the UK
Do you mean blocked from leaving the EU?
If so that is possible. There could be a stich up in the House of Commons when MP's vote against the bill to petition Article 50.
-Are guaranteed to lose Scotland, London and NI
None of those are guaranteed.
Scotland is very likely if the SNP get a deal with Brussels next week. Doing so is possible as a means of punishing England but is not strictly legal under EU law. There is an equal possibility that Scotland is told that the referendumm is bionding and they are able to apply as a new nation joining, after a few years delay. Brussels can do that out of spite by keeping Scotland poor and on the outside as a further attempt at punishment.
All this depends on whether Juncker gets his way, who really really wants to stick the knife in, or Merkel.
Scotland might attempt to indyref anyway even if EU exit is guaranteed, it might be stoppable under those circumstances, if Westminster refuses to allow the existing mandate to be overruled. If Scotland is invited in by a special arrangement there will be a cat in hells chance of stopping it. I would go as far as to say that Scotland would be very foolish not to jump at the chance, and I don't like the idea of a break up one bit.
The big problem there is that the EU knows Scotland will be a passenger economy. This will not matter if the whole exercise is to stick the knife into London.
London wont happen, any petition for Lexit will be laughed out by the UK. It is very normal for a capital city to have a disproportionate economy to the surrounding territories. Most nations have primacy of a single city.
As for Northern Ireland, the Troubles might kick off again, but that isnt too likely, but is possible. Sinn Fein is calling for a border poll but the mandate to leave the Uk isnt there by all indications, and the Good Friday agreement does stipulate one unless this is the case.
-Will not be able to trade with anyone for the next decade
Boris Johnson got one bit right, the idea that the UK wont be able to fashion trade agreements, or lacks expertise in doing so is ludicrous. Even Juncker admits this is one skill at which the Uk has proven itself well versed and the EU itself has relied in UK expertise in trade negotiations.
Hence why I called them misconceptions. Read the context, not just the bullets.
I read the context, they are not necessarily all misconceptions.
The UKcan be blocked from leaving the EU by Westminster.
Scotland can attempt to leave the UK.
NI can either kick off or attempt a border poll.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
IMO Scotland can ask questions but can only apply for membership of the EU or have any separate deal with the EU if they decide to leave the UK (via a referendum) and only after the UK triggers Article 50 and has negotiated an exit.
The EU wanted curbs to the financial hub that is the City of London. if London got independence I doubt the EU would want any part of it other than an enclave containing the building sand interests of the financial sector.
Whirlwind wrote: A referendum there could risk opening up wounds that only have just started to heal because the argument won't solely be about the EU or not.
There is almost certainly going to be a hard border in Ireland, it will be an EU frontier after all, and if that will be a significant set back.
And if not between RoI and N. Ireland, then there will need to be one at every port with connections to Northern Ireland. Otherwise EU people can fly to Ireland, cross freely into Northern Ireland and then just get a ferry into England/Wales.
But that's all silly anyway as there is no way that the UK will get a trade deal that doesn't include free movement of EU citizens and the right to work in the UK.
Quite possibility, a lot of people that voted Leave might get a shock when that is agreed though. They might start wondering what they voted for - of course the risk is that might push people to more extreme populists.
@Selym I'm always confused when people say they don't like how the EU 'works' because I don't really know what you are objecting to?
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Le sigh. I named the misconception "Unable to leave the UK". As in, UK citizens would not be allowed to enter places like France or Germany for a holiday. Given that it is possible for a Brit to move to the US of A, it is unlikely that all movement of peoples would be blocked.
@Selym I'm always confused when people say they don't like how the EU 'works' because I don't really know what you are objecting to?
>Lack of accountability. Decisions are made behind closed doors, and we are unable to asccertain who did what. Meaning that when the time comes to vote for MEP's, we have no idea what we are going to get.
>Disproportionate representation. The UK has a larger population than many EU members, and its economic and military powers pre-Brexit were topping EU charts. And yet we got the same weight of representation as everyone else.
>This video:
>And this one:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/25 15:43:54
Selym wrote: An EU country campaigning for EU reform, or looking for an EU exit could be capable of trying to independently sign a deal with the UK that does not include free movement. but this will cause them some serious EU backlash.
OTOH, the EU states aren't the only trading states in the world, with China expressing a trade interest, and Russia stating it would like to look into closer ties with the UK.
But why would those countries negotiate on their own rather than as part of the EU? The EU is a huge power and will be able to get better deals than the individual countries. That was the whole point of it.
As for closer ties to Russia and China. I really don't think that those are two countries we really want to be getting into bed with. I mean, if you think EU red tape is bad wait until you see Russian bureaucracy. They recently banned Durex, the biggest condom manufacturer in the Russian market, due to unspecified "incorrect paperwork". Not to mention their anti-gay laws, Crimean annexation and supporting the Ukrainian rebels.
As for China, you think the UK is going to get very favourable deals with them? Their GDP is over 3 times higher than ours, their steel manufacturing has destroyed ours (one of the few non-tech manufacturing areas we still have) etc. Not to mention their human rights stuff and their treatment of Hong Kong which has caused some serious friction between the UK and China.
The EU is the second largest economy in the world, even without the UK. The UK is the fifth.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 16:09:20
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Does anybody know where George Osborne is? I'm worried about him.
Has he been kidnapped, has he gone to ground in some isolated cottage in the Lake District, surrounded by empty vodka bottles?
Nobody's seen him since Thursday!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Is there any reason why we can't just circumvent the EU and sign individual trade deals directly with individual member states?
I mean, if the governments of both the UK and Germany, or Spain, or France, or Denmark etc, want to come up with private arrangements between those two countries only, how is the EU going to stop them? Blockade their ports? Send in the (currently) non-existant EU army that people here insist will never happen? Sanction said government to punish them for exercising their right to act as a sovereign nation state?
The main reason people voted out, was because of immigration, and lets spend the 350 million on the NHS.
Well so far, we've been told that the 350 mil for the NHS was not a commitment, and that the promise was to control immigration. Not reduce it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629300
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
loki old fart wrote: The main reason people voted out, was because of [snip] and lets spend the 350 million on the NHS. Well so far, we've been told that the 350 mil for the NHS was not a commitment, [snip]
We've been told no such thing.
Nigel Farage disagreeing with the promise made by a separate Leave campaign that he had no influence and authority over does not in any way mean that it was a false promise. To my knowledge, the people who actually made that promise (i.e. Johnson's lot, the people who are going to form the next government and actually be in a position to keep or break that promise unlike Farage) have not retracted it (yet). There were two independent campaigns, making different promises.
It astounds me that people here are still persisting with this outright lie.
I may as well just keep copy and pasting this comment, I've repeated myself so often.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/06/25 16:38:01
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: He may not have said it, but he's allowed it to continue, just like how the official brexit campaign allowed him to continue he's freelance campaign.
Strange how they've both profited off of each other, but when there's issues, the other can back off and say it was the other guy.
Because, you know, it was the other guy.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
