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Hey Guys,

I've put together what I think is a bit of a "Go Hard or Go Home" sort of army that requires a lot of going in thick and fast. Here it is:

Chapter Master (200 Points)
Teeth of Terra
Storm Bolter
Artificer Armour
Digital Weapons

Crusader Squad (255 Points)
9x Initiates + 1x Sword Brother
5x Initiates
2x Power Fist
Melta-gun

Assault Squad (120 Points)
4x Space Marines + 1x Veteran Sargent
2x Flamers
Power Maul/Sword
5x Jump Packs

Assault Squad (120 Points)
4x Space Marines + 1x Veteran Sargent
2x Flamers
Power Maul/Sword
5x Jump Packs

Land Raider Crusader (Dedicated Transport) (260 Points)
Multi-Melta

Linebreaker Squadron (390 Points)
3x Siege Shields

Dreadnoughts (Run Individually) (360 Points)
3x Assault Cannons
3x Heavy Flamers

Predator (140 Points)
Twin-Linked Lascannon
2x Lascannons (one per side)

Razorback (Dedicated Transport) (75 Points)
Twin-Linked Lascannon

Crusader Squad (70 Points)
5x Initiates w/ Boltguns
No Sword Brother

-- The 2,000 Point List is designed to be run with the Chapter Master and the 15-man Squad in Land Raider Crusader which, because of the "Teeth of Terra", may seem a bit counter-intuitive. But the idea behind that is at any given stage, they either have the advantage of numbers of the advantage of the extra attacks from the Teeth of Terra.

-- I also have to figure out exactly how I might run the Assault Squads because deep striking them has turned out really poorly. I thought maybe I could run them behind the Linebreaker Squadron or the Dreadnoughts because they're going to have to go in to close/melee range.

-- I also thought that whether or not I run the Linebreaker Squadron or run the Vindicators as three individual squads will depend on if I get first turn.

-- And finally I thought I'd add in the Predator and the Razorback because I felt the need for some dedicated anti-armour in there even though much of the weaponry that's already there can - on some level or another - deal with tanks. The Razorback will also (initially) double up as a transport for the 5-man Crusader Squad which will serve to capture objectives or to help deny objectives being taken by infantry.

I feel that this list is orientated better for trying to completely destroy the enemy army than anything else, and definitely hoping to kick some a** with it (especially against my mate with their Dark Angels and their 2+ Re-Rollable Jink Saves )

Interesting list and a fun concept.

In general I’d avoid stormbolters. They are only marginally better then the regular bolter. If you want something to shoot, take a combi. If you are going to stick the CM in with the crusader squad, a c-melta would help the one in the squad do something.

The lone melta gun is not going to do much by itself. You get one chance to blow up a tank, and that commits the squad to charge it (or if you blew up a transport, it’s contents) You should also take the LRC as a dedicated transport so it gets ObSec.

I like 5 man assault squads over 10 man ones. It’s easier to keep them out of LOS and maneuver around the battlefield. DSing them is generally a bad idea, just advance them behind the tanks/other cover and hop out to charge something.

I think the linebreaker squadron is a little much. As a vehicle squad, they all have to shoot the same target. That’s generally going to be overkill. It could also be an issue getting all three tanks to bear on the same thing. While the squadron advantage looks nice on paper, you need everyone alive and shooting to get it. Not worth the investment IMHO. Also, swapping from squadrons to lone tanks is not like combat squadding. If you are playing in a format with fixed lists, you need to choose one when you write it up, and stick with it. You can’t change it once you start the game (including pre-game stuff like seeing who gets first turn)

I’d recommend against having three dreads in a squadron. I did that once (with assault cannons as well) and they had all sorts of issues. Getting them all in firing range, having one guy stuck in difficult terrain slowing everyone down, etc. I’d suggest keeping them as a pair, rather then a trio. Should be more manageable on the table.

I just noticed you only have one troop pick.

Black Templars are a tough chapter to use effectively because of chapter tactics.

I don't actually have the new marine book but from what I see at tournaments you might look at two different kinds of lists. 1 would be a gladius strike force using drop pods. The other would be something using the land raider formation and possibly a thunderfire/whirlwind formation for fire support or some storm talons.

In my personal opinion black Templar are unfortunately one of the worst chapters as far as competitive play is concerned. Fluff wise they are by far may favorites.

Try three land raiders full of crusader squads with melta bombs. And then pick a support formation. This way you force the assualt.

So you have a good structure, here but you over kill in some area and lack in others. Judging by your title, "GO HARD OR GO HOME" it looks like the over kill was intended. I have some questions,first is, are the models you've chosen the only models you have or are you free to make different choices? Next is which aspect of the templars do you want to portray, like the veteran fighter, the honor machines,the anti psyker.... etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:


So I made this for you to look at, it still has that GO BIG THEME, with some of the combat prowess of veterans/ unofficial sword brethren. I also has just enough to touch about everything for even dmg, and finally the detachments just give some more of a boost with some fluff inspiration.

CAD
HIGH MARSHAL HELBRECHT.........180

Crusader Squad....................................115
>Melta Gun
>Drop pod

Crusader Squad....................................115
>Melta Gun
>Drop pod

Crusader Squad....................................115
>Melta Gun
>Drop Pod

Storm Talon.............................................110
>Sky Hammer Missiles


First Company Task Force
Vangaurd................................................165
>Relic Blade
>Storm Shields (3)
>Lightning Claws (4)
>Melta Bomb

Vangaurd................................................165
>Relic Blade
>Storm Shields (3)
>Lightning Claws (4)
>Melta Bomb

Vangaurd................................................110
>Dual Lightning Claws
>Melta Bombs

Landraider Spearhead
Landraider..............................................250

Landraider Crusader............................260
>Multi Melta

Landraider Crusader........................... 260
>Multi Melta

PTS=1850

I believe you only have one troop choice. Unless you are using some kind of formation I didn't see.

Nevelon wrote:Interesting list and a fun concept.

In general I’d avoid stormbolters. They are only marginally better then the regular bolter. If you want something to shoot, take a combi. If you are going to stick the CM in with the crusader squad, a c-melta would help the one in the squad do something.

The lone melta gun is not going to do much by itself. You get one chance to blow up a tank, and that commits the squad to charge it (or if you blew up a transport, it’s contents) You should also take the LRC as a dedicated transport so it gets ObSec.

I like 5 man assault squads over 10 man ones. It’s easier to keep them out of LOS and maneuver around the battlefield. DSing them is generally a bad idea, just advance them behind the tanks/other cover and hop out to charge something.

I think the linebreaker squadron is a little much. As a vehicle squad, they all have to shoot the same target. That’s generally going to be overkill. It could also be an issue getting all three tanks to bear on the same thing. While the squadron advantage looks nice on paper, you need everyone alive and shooting to get it. Not worth the investment IMHO. Also, swapping from squadrons to lone tanks is not like combat squadding. If you are playing in a format with fixed lists, you need to choose one when you write it up, and stick with it. You can’t change it once you start the game (including pre-game stuff like seeing who gets first turn)

I’d recommend against having three dreads in a squadron. I did that once (with assault cannons as well) and they had all sorts of issues. Getting them all in firing range, having one guy stuck in difficult terrain slowing everyone down, etc. I’d suggest keeping them as a pair, rather then a trio. Should be more manageable on the table.

I just noticed you only have one troop pick.

Well the Storm Bolter was added in because I needed a reliable anti-infantry weapon that wasn't a Rapid Fire weapon, and considering he's almost always going to be attacking infantry (because the ToT only bring his melee attacks up to S6), it seemed like a good choice.

The lone Melta-gun is an issue. It's also compiled by the lone Power Fist on the Sword Brother (which I've since figured out by playing that it's a bad investment) and the lone Power Sword. I was going to trying to figure out a better trio of weapons to use and then jump on Bitz Galaxy or something to fix that. The original thinking behind the Melta-gun was "I have a Special Weapons slot and it can't be a rapid fire weapon... hmmmmm...".

With the Assault Squad, it hasn't been fully assembled yet (I have 6 assembled, 2 with Flamers and 4 with Bolt Pistol + CCW combos), so I could turn them into two very versatile 5-man squads quite easily. Was thinking maybe a pair of Lightning Claws, 2x Bolt Pistol + CCW Combos, a Flamer and an Eviscerator in each squad. Maybe give them both Melta Bombs as well just to as to the Armourbane on the Eviscerator for the sake of versatility?

As for the one troop pick, I didn't realise this until after reading the comments haha. Could easily be fixed if I bumped up the list to 2,000 Points. Have a Troops choice on foot/in a Rhino/in a Razorback to run around and secure objectives.

If I were to run both of the squadrons as individuals, then what might be prudent is running them all individually and then escorting each Vindicator with a Dreadnought, keeping the dreadnought between the enemy and the Vindicator. I feel that's prudent because the Dreadnoughts are likely to be targeted heavily anyway because of their weaponry as well as their ultimate goal of melee combat as well as helping to avoid vehicle damage on the Vindicators which would prevent them from firing.

And finally, whether or not Black Templars are good depends on two things: (1) What sort of list your opponent(s) took; and (2) Whether or not you're sticking to the fluff (e.g. lots of zealous crusading infantry).

Epartalis wrote:Black Templars are a tough chapter to use effectively because of chapter tactics.

I don't actually have the new marine book but from what I see at tournaments you might look at two different kinds of lists. 1 would be a gladius strike force using drop pods. The other would be something using the land raider formation and possibly a thunderfire/whirlwind formation for fire support or some storm talons.

In my personal opinion black Templar are unfortunately one of the worst chapters as far as competitive play is concerned. Fluff wise they are by far may favorites.

Try three land raiders full of crusader squads with melta bombs. And then pick a support formation. This way you force the assualt.

Once I get the money, the hope is to run a Land Raider Crusader Spearhead with High Marshal Helbrecht attached to a 15-man Crusader Squad and 2x 16-man Crusader Squads all being transported in the Spearhead and then - when I win the Lotto - Get an Armoured Task Force with the mandatory Techmarine, 2x Linebreaker Squadrons and a Squadron of Predators for dedicated anti-tank. I could put some Whirlwinds in there as well, but given there'd be two Linebreakers, that may be a bit of overkill.

btgrimaldus wrote:So you have a good structure, here but you over kill in some area and lack in others. Judging by your title, "GO HARD OR GO HOME" it looks like the over kill was intended. I have some questions,first is, are the models you've chosen the only models you have or are you free to make different choices? Next is which aspect of the templars do you want to portray, like the veteran fighter, the honor machines,the anti psyker.... etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:


So I made this for you to look at, it still has that GO BIG THEME, with some of the combat prowess of veterans/ unofficial sword brethren. I also has just enough to touch about everything for even dmg, and finally the detachments just give some more of a boost with some fluff inspiration.

CAD
HIGH MARSHAL HELBRECHT.........180

Crusader Squad....................................115
>Melta Gun
>Drop pod

Crusader Squad....................................115
>Melta Gun
>Drop pod

Crusader Squad....................................115
>Melta Gun
>Drop Pod

Storm Talon.............................................110
>Sky Hammer Missiles


First Company Task Force
Vangaurd................................................165
>Relic Blade
>Storm Shields (3)
>Lightning Claws (4)
>Melta Bomb

Vangaurd................................................165
>Relic Blade
>Storm Shields (3)
>Lightning Claws (4)
>Melta Bomb

Vangaurd................................................110
>Dual Lightning Claws
>Melta Bombs

Landraider Spearhead
Landraider..............................................250

Landraider Crusader............................260
>Multi Melta

Landraider Crusader........................... 260
>Multi Melta

PTS=1850

These are all models I own. I picked this list because I figured it was one of the most competitive lists I could conjure up with the models I have. The only things that haven't been assembled is, as aforementioned, a couple of Assault Marine models, and also one of the Vindicators and the Predator. And with this list, the "Armour Division" seems most apt, but with the list you've given (which looks very good btw ) or the Sprearhead/ATF combo I mentioned above, I could focus more on the zealous melee combat BT's are known for.

Thanks for the list

 IllumiNini wrote:

Nevelon wrote:Interesting list and a fun concept.

In general I’d avoid stormbolters. They are only marginally better then the regular bolter. If you want something to shoot, take a combi. If you are going to stick the CM in with the crusader squad, a c-melta would help the one in the squad do something.

The lone melta gun is not going to do much by itself. You get one chance to blow up a tank, and that commits the squad to charge it (or if you blew up a transport, it’s contents) You should also take the LRC as a dedicated transport so it gets ObSec.

I like 5 man assault squads over 10 man ones. It’s easier to keep them out of LOS and maneuver around the battlefield. DSing them is generally a bad idea, just advance them behind the tanks/other cover and hop out to charge something.

I think the linebreaker squadron is a little much. As a vehicle squad, they all have to shoot the same target. That’s generally going to be overkill. It could also be an issue getting all three tanks to bear on the same thing. While the squadron advantage looks nice on paper, you need everyone alive and shooting to get it. Not worth the investment IMHO. Also, swapping from squadrons to lone tanks is not like combat squadding. If you are playing in a format with fixed lists, you need to choose one when you write it up, and stick with it. You can’t change it once you start the game (including pre-game stuff like seeing who gets first turn)

I’d recommend against having three dreads in a squadron. I did that once (with assault cannons as well) and they had all sorts of issues. Getting them all in firing range, having one guy stuck in difficult terrain slowing everyone down, etc. I’d suggest keeping them as a pair, rather then a trio. Should be more manageable on the table.

I just noticed you only have one troop pick.

Well the Storm Bolter was added in because I needed a reliable anti-infantry weapon that wasn't a Rapid Fire weapon, and considering he's almost always going to be attacking infantry (because the ToT only bring his melee attacks up to S6), it seemed like a good choice.

The lone Melta-gun is an issue. It's also compiled by the lone Power Fist on the Sword Brother (which I've since figured out by playing that it's a bad investment) and the lone Power Sword. I was going to trying to figure out a better trio of weapons to use and then jump on Bitz Galaxy or something to fix that. The original thinking behind the Melta-gun was "I have a Special Weapons slot and it can't be a rapid fire weapon... hmmmmm...".

With the Assault Squad, it hasn't been fully assembled yet (I have 6 assembled, 2 with Flamers and 4 with Bolt Pistol + CCW combos), so I could turn them into two very versatile 5-man squads quite easily. Was thinking maybe a pair of Lightning Claws, 2x Bolt Pistol + CCW Combos, a Flamer and an Eviscerator in each squad. Maybe give them both Melta Bombs as well just to as to the Armourbane on the Eviscerator for the sake of versatility?

As for the one troop pick, I didn't realise this until after reading the comments haha. Could easily be fixed if I bumped up the list to 2,000 Points. Have a Troops choice on foot/in a Rhino/in a Razorback to run around and secure objectives.

If I were to run both of the squadrons as individuals, then what might be prudent is running them all individually and then escorting each Vindicator with a Dreadnought, keeping the dreadnought between the enemy and the Vindicator. I feel that's prudent because the Dreadnoughts are likely to be targeted heavily anyway because of their weaponry as well as their ultimate goal of melee combat as well as helping to avoid vehicle damage on the Vindicators which would prevent them from firing.

And finally, whether or not Black Templars are good depends on two things: (1) What sort of list your opponent(s) took; and (2) Whether or not you're sticking to the fluff (e.g. lots of zealous crusading infantry).

If you want an anti-infantry weapon, flamers and c-flamers work.

The concept of the hidden powerfist has a lot of merit, and one you can take advantage of. It’s not on a character, so can’t be singled out in a challenge. You do need to be careful where you put him in the squad, so he can’t be killed by stray shots. It is a lot of points on a 1W model, but reasonably safe.

I try to keep points on sergeants down. I’d personally no go 2xLC, but stick with something simple like a powersword/bolt pistol, or an axe if there is a character in the squad to take the challenges. I do like the paired flamers. Not sure about the Evic, it’s a lot of points, but does cut things open nicely.

In general you want to run things as singles unless you need the FOC slots. The light tanks (WWs, AA tanks) might get some milage out of having 3 together, but not the big ones. screening the vindis wth dreads might work, depends a lot on the table and your foes.

The Power Fist is on the Sword Brother in the 15 -man squad, which is part of why I need to change that. Maybe switch it for the Power Sword so that the character has the Power Sword and an Initiate has the Power Fist. As for the melta-gun, it may be worth keeping if I attack a Rhino or something with low armour, but at this point it only serves as a single insta-gib shot per round, which may not be worth the 15 points.

With the Assault Marines, I could run two flamers in each squad for a total cost of 10 points per squad and leave out the evisceraters, but considering the evisceraters won't be on characters, they might be worth keeping. Im undecided on that. As far as the Sargent goes, if I got the 2x LCs, it may be worth the extra 5 points for a Combat Shield just to add to the survivability and justify the 30 points on 2x LCs. Otherwise Power Sword + Bolt Pistol would work best because I'm fairly sure the Power Axe is unweildy, which in my experience is not good in challenges.

 IllumiNini wrote:
The Power Fist is on the Sword Brother in the 15 -man squad, which is part of why I need to change that. Maybe switch it for the Power Sword so that the character has the Power Sword and an Initiate has the Power Fist. As for the melta-gun, it may be worth keeping if I attack a Rhino or something with low armour, but at this point it only serves as a single insta-gib shot per round, which may not be worth the 15 points.

With the Assault Marines, I could run two flamers in each squad for a total cost of 10 points per squad and leave out the evisceraters, but considering the evisceraters won't be on characters, they might be worth keeping. Im undecided on that. As far as the Sargent goes, if I got the 2x LCs, it may be worth the extra 5 points for a Combat Shield just to add to the survivability and justify the 30 points on 2x LCs. Otherwise Power Sword + Bolt Pistol would work best because I'm fairly sure the Power Axe is unweildy, which in my experience is not good in challenges.

The unwieldy thing is the reason I only give it to the sarge if I have a character in the unit. My normal assault squad is 5 men, 2 flamers, vet sarge with a power weapon. Sword if they are flying solo, or if I have a chaplain with the unit, an axe. Because the chaplain is going to accept any challenge tossed at the squad, giving the sarge time to light into things with the axe.

I know they are dead killy, but I just can’t get over the price tag on the evisorators. Soooo many points. YMMV. Personally, I used the bit as a Teeth of Terra on my captain YMMV.

6++ saves are great when free, but nothing to rely on, or spend the point for IMHO. 2xLC might look cool, but save it for the vanguard vets, who get them at a discount. It’s not worth the 30 points for a sarge.

 Nevelon wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
The Power Fist is on the Sword Brother in the 15 -man squad, which is part of why I need to change that. Maybe switch it for the Power Sword so that the character has the Power Sword and an Initiate has the Power Fist. As for the melta-gun, it may be worth keeping if I attack a Rhino or something with low armour, but at this point it only serves as a single insta-gib shot per round, which may not be worth the 15 points.

With the Assault Marines, I could run two flamers in each squad for a total cost of 10 points per squad and leave out the evisceraters, but considering the evisceraters won't be on characters, they might be worth keeping. Im undecided on that. As far as the Sargent goes, if I got the 2x LCs, it may be worth the extra 5 points for a Combat Shield just to add to the survivability and justify the 30 points on 2x LCs. Otherwise Power Sword + Bolt Pistol would work best because I'm fairly sure the Power Axe is unweildy, which in my experience is not good in challenges.

The unwieldy thing is the reason I only give it to the sarge if I have a character in the unit. My normal assault squad is 5 men, 2 flamers, vet sarge with a power weapon. Sword if they are flying solo, or if I have a chaplain with the unit, an axe. Because the chaplain is going to accept any challenge tossed at the squad, giving the sarge time to light into things with the axe.

I know they are dead killy, but I just can’t get over the price tag on the evisorators. Soooo many points. YMMV. Personally, I used the bit as a Teeth of Terra on my captain YMMV.

6++ saves are great when free, but nothing to rely on, or spend the point for IMHO. 2xLC might look cool, but save it for the vanguard vets, who get them at a discount. It’s not worth the 30 points for a sarge.

Fair call., though I was wandering whether a Power Maul might be a better choice. I know it's only AP4 (as opposed to AP3 for Power Swords and Axes), but it's +2 to Strength. Worth the trade off?

And if I was going to give my Sargents Power Weapons, they'd be Mauls or Swords since I'd almost never run my commander with a Jump Pack in a squad like this, meaning taking an unwieldy melee weapon ais a bad idea.

Swords are good vs. MEQ, worse against everything else. They are a niche weapon, but MEQ is a pretty wide one.
Axes are for TEQ.
Mauls are good vs. everything else. The S helps get the wounds in, and if you are swinging vs 4+ or things with a decent invuln, the AP is not as relevent. Not a bad jack of all trades choice, particularly vs. most xenos.

Well my usual opponents are Spaces Wolves, Thousand Sons. Orks, Dark Angels and Blood Ravens (yes, my friends and I like our filthy filthy Space Marines haha), so the sword would be a good choice, but I feel like a maul is better simply because I'd be wounding on 2+ and 3+ most of the time instead of 4+ and 5+, despite the fact that most of my regular opponents would still get their armour saves.

Also, I feel the Linwbreaker Squadron may be useful and more flexible that you might think since there is a rule on Page 79 of the rule book which says that if one or more of the squadron gets immobilized, then the remaining mobile vehicles can abandon them as long as the vehicles which are moving away remain in coherency with each other. This will allow my to at least try to take advantage of the squadron's special rule, not go over the 'Heavy Support' limit of a CAD, and still keep them moving if one gets bogged down. I'd still run the Dreadnoughts individually and ahead of the Vindicators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just updated the list which takes into account all the suggestions made as well as making an addition in order to make it a legal CAD and 2,000 Points.

 IllumiNini wrote:
Well my usual opponents are Spaces Wolves, Thousand Sons. Orks, Dark Angels and Blood Ravens (yes, my friends and I like our filthy filthy Space Marines haha), so the sword would be a good choice, but I feel like a maul is better simply because I'd be wounding on 2+ and 3+ most of the time instead of 4+ and 5+, despite the fact that most of my regular opponents would still get their armour saves.

I loved the maul with there old CT when the had the roll of 6 is rending. Now though i take the relic blade where i can or a LC or two for the ap3 shred, with a meltabomb for tank killing.