Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For all rhe Chaos players out there.

I been trying both spawns out and had so many mixed thoughts from the same models.

Originally people would take 5 Spawns with Mark of Nurgle for 180flashlights and escort a biker lord/sorc. Or they just take 5 without marks and escort a jugger lord for 150flash lights.

Renegades and Heretics has a detachment formation called The Purge which required 1 hq of command squad and 2 elites slots but allowed for up to 8 troops, no fast attack, 4 heavy support, and most importantly 6 elite slots which where the Spawns were re classified as from fast attack. Not only that they only cost 55 flash lights for squads of 3. No upgrades or reinforcements to 5 spawns strong.

Fielding one squad of 5 from the csm ment you could have nearly 3 squads of 3 from the Renegades and Heretics for a difference of 15 flash lights more. 9 is better than 5 right? But is having 3 small squads better than 1 squad of 5?

Now CSM has the mark of nurgle and that really changes how well spawns performed as most enemies had to wound on 6s. So Would you rather have 3 squads of 3 spawns at Tuff5 or 5 spawns at tuff6 for 15 more flash lights?

Taking two squads of 5 Nurgle Spawns would Cost 360 flash lights. So it gives you 10 models with 30 wounds at Tuff6.

However the Purge detachment with the req command squad and 6 squads of trio spawn would only cost 375 flash lights. And this gives you 18 models with 54 wounds at a lower Tuff5.

You're allowed to list points costs on Dakka.

I often run 12 Vraks spawn with the Purge. They are totally worth the points.

 Virules wrote:
I often run 12 Vraks spawn with the Purge. They are totally worth the points.

That's not possible outside of unbound. And unbound precludes use of The Purge.

In order to use Renegade Chaos Spawn at all in a detachment, you need a Renegade Command Squad which has the Arch-Demagogue as the Warlord. Then you can include up to 3 units of Renegade Chaos Spawn, which come in units of three. So it's 9 possible Renegade Chaos Spawn in any army, as an army only has 1 Warlord.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I often run 12 Vraks spawn with the Purge. They are totally worth the points.

That's not possible outside of unbound. And unbound precludes use of The Purge.

In order to use Renegade Chaos Spawn at all in a detachment, you need a Renegade Command Squad which has the Arch-Demagogue as the Warlord. Then you can include up to 3 units of Renegade Chaos Spawn, which come in units of three. So it's 9 possible Renegade Chaos Spawn in any army, as an army only has 1 Warlord.

This is the case for normal IA;13 R&H, not for Vraksian R&H. Vraksian R&H the chaos spawn are just a normal elites entry, not restricted in quantity.

I'm looking Imperial Armor 5: Second Edition right now. Those restrictions are there.

The latest rules for Renegades and Heretics standard are in IA: 13. The latest rules for the Vraksian version of Renegades and Heretics is in IA: Vraks Second Edition.

Imperial Armor 5 is Vraks. I said Second Edition, as well.

There's no way to have more than 9 Vraks Spawn in any army including a The Purge detachment.

There are no more separate IAs for Vraks, they are all combined in one book now called IA: Vraks (Second Edition). New book is missing the missions and some other old stuff.

As far as the Spawn go - like a lot of things, there was sloppy copy-pasting with the Vraks entries from IA:13 (which itself had a ton of typos and omissions). The Spawn entry in the Vraks version shouldn't have a reference to a Tzeentch covenant (after all, you can't take a Tzeentch covenant in a Vraks army!). Someone messaged FW and confirmed that this was a mistake and that spawn are normal elites in a Vraks army. You can find a copy of the FW reply at the R&H FAQ thread on the B&C:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjnkp2wrozLAhVnkIMKHd7IBTEQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bolterandchainsword.com%2Ftopic%2F304162-ia13-vraks-2nd-faqerrata-from-forgeworld%2F&usg=AFQjCNGyWqN5UCSSSkH0SY79a9t9X3pfcg&sig2=eVPSk4j3pdA5yW7h5u5REg&bvm=bv.114733917,d.amc

 Virules wrote:
There are no more separate IAs for Vraks, they are all combined in one book now called IA: Vraks (Second Edition).

Yes, which is exactly what I said. Also, it contains no reference to Tzeentch. You may want to look at your book before commenting further.

Also, Dakka doesn't support emails from customer service as actual rules.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I often run 12 Vraks spawn with the Purge. They are totally worth the points.

That's not possible outside of unbound. And unbound precludes use of The Purge.

In order to use Renegade Chaos Spawn at all in a detachment, you need a Renegade Command Squad which has the Arch-Demagogue as the Warlord. Then you can include up to 3 units of Renegade Chaos Spawn, which come in units of three. So it's 9 possible Renegade Chaos Spawn in any army, as an army only has 1 Warlord.

Page #? I don't see the stipulation that you may only take 3 units of spawn.

Ok, if you want to be that specific, you can't take Spawn at all, ever from the Renegades list in Vraks 2.

They are unlocked via Arch-Demagogue ability only, but none of the Arch-Demagogue abilities do that. The undivided ability unlocks a unit that doesn't exist.

Spawn are not allowed to ever be taken in that list.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Ok, if you want to be that specific, you can't take Spawn at all, ever from the Renegades list in Vraks 2.

They are unlocked via Arch-Demagogue ability only, but none of the Arch-Demagogue abilities do that. The undivided ability unlocks a unit that doesn't exist.

Spawn are not allowed to ever be taken in that list.

I'll leave that for the TOs to decide.

OP, to answer your question, it depends on what you wanna run with the spawn. If you are looking for protective wounds for something (say, a Juggie-lord) then I think CSM spawn are better as they have a higher T and can be taken in larger groups.

The small groups of 3 are more points efficient but make poor cannon fodder otherwise, and are thus best taken in multiples.

It appears that my analysis is biased and made people choose Renegades and Heretics based on the 1 sided arguement.

Although Renegades and Heretics Spawns are cheaper and allow for more wounds and hits overall, they critically fail when they need to succeed most. What i nean to say is that they allow enemies to win combat and not get sweeped due to tuff5. They also give first blood to any templates with have str10. They also can give vp to objectives where you have to shoot a unit dead.

do please reconsider that.

also I ment to ask, which load out do you use and prefer to use not which one is mathematicly better.

 Filch wrote:
It appears that my analysis is biased and made people choose Renegades and Heretics based on the 1 sided arguement.

Although Renegades and Heretics Spawns are cheaper and allow for more wounds and hits overall, they critically fail when they need to succeed most. What i nean to say is that they allow enemies to win combat and not get sweeped due to tuff5. They also give first blood to any templates with have str10. They also can give vp to objectives where you have to shoot a unit dead.

do please reconsider that.

also I ment to ask, which load out do you use and prefer to use not which one is mathematicly better.

If you have your own opinion, then why come and ask for other's on the forums? I'm confused.

I unintentionally presented my analysis break down in a biased one sided way. I made this pool to get what people are actually using but wrote prefer...

I don't think you're going to get a different result if you ask what people are using. Renegade Spawn are better, the end. T6 isn't worth one blob with 4 less total models for an extra 15 points. Even if we concern ourselves with the fact that Renegade Spawn are subject to ID, three units of three force the enemy to split their fire, increasing the odds that some of them survive.

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Virules wrote:
There are no more separate IAs for Vraks, they are all combined in one book now called IA: Vraks (Second Edition).

Yes, which is exactly what I said. Also, it contains no reference to Tzeentch. You may want to look at your book before commenting further.

Also, Dakka doesn't support emails from customer service as actual rules.

DarknessEternal wrote:Ok, if you want to be that specific, you can't take Spawn at all, ever from the Renegades list in Vraks 2.

They are unlocked via Arch-Demagogue ability only, but none of the Arch-Demagogue abilities do that. The undivided ability unlocks a unit that doesn't exist.

Spawn are not allowed to ever be taken in that list.

1) No, you referred to "IA:5 Second Edition", which doesn't exist. Unlike with most IA lines of books, FW didn't keep updating new volumes in the same number series, but instead consolidated them all into the second edition of a new book. You're going to just confuse people if you don't use the right names for the newest versions of the books and rules.

2) It looks from your second post like you already realized that you stuck your foot in your mouth and didn't read very carefully, which is especially entertaining considering the condescending "You may want to look at your book before commenting further" remark. Pie on face much? But yes, there is indeed an obvious clear copy-paste typo in Vraks, as the Spawn entry still contains the IA:13 requirement for covenant of tzeentch, which is impossible to take in a Vraks list.

As noted in the link I provided, Forgeworld has confirmed that this that is a clear error since otherwise you wouldn't be able to take the unit that they intentionally included as an option for a Vraks list (unlike several IA:13 R&H units that they intentionally left out of the Vraks list). Also just FYI, contacting FW for questions about stuff like this is a lot different than calling a GW drone who makes up the answer on the spot - the FW people can actually get in touch with the original rules writers directly and can even look at the design team's working documents (the basis for an eventual FAQ). As you'll see in the thread I linked, that's exactly what they did the first time I emailed them to ask about IA:13 typos. (Hence why sometimes they take a 1-2 weeks to get back to you with a full response after initially writing back).

Now, nothing is stopping you from stubbornly insisting that the impossibility of taking Vraks spawn is intentional despite all evidence of the contrary, but I and probably the vast majority of R&H players will continue to happily take as many spawn units as we want to tournaments in our Vraks lists! They've been serving me well at lots of different competitions and I'm sure they'll keep doing so.

Except the Spawn entry is suppose to be the Maurader entry (because you actually have permission to take Mauraders through the Master of Renegades rule but don't have the unit entry)

No, the marauder entry was just missing from IA: Vraks. Yet another screw-up.

The fact that the spawn entry has the master of renegades rule has nothing to do with marauders. It's because they copy-pasted the spawn rules. In the IA:13 book, the spawn entry IS supposed to have the master of renegades rule.

This thread has really put me off buying IA books. I am so confused :S.

As a side bar, if you play RH, which book do you use?

I like to think of IA:13 as the main codex, and Vraks as a supplement/expansion book.

I find myself using Vraks a lot more often recently. I like the purge with ordnance tyrant a lot. Not having Tzeentch marked infantry is a bummer, but not moving 100 models each phase is really nice! I am lucky enough to own both books (bought one, gifted another) but if I had to choose a single book, it would be IA:13. It is just a better overall book, as it not only has RH, it also has plenty of war machines and whatnot. You can build a better well rounded army.


@nareik, just email FW if you have questions. They are going to give you a better response than some chum on a forum. I have never played against someone who had issue with me using more than one spawn unit in my vraks list.


The hands down biggest issue with BOTH books, is how over half the equipment from them is not present in the appendix. Many weapons do not have their profiles listed. The renegade helhound is not listed in IA:13, so you would believe it is the same as the AM helhound, however in Vraks, it is listed as having an 18" torrent range. So it really helps to have both books.

Lastly, carrying both books around is a massive pain in the butt, those books weigh a gakload.