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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I am trying to think of the most competitive way to run wulfen. Right now I am thinking of running them in 5 man units 2 with ss/th, 2 with claws and 1 with axe and grenade launcher. My question is should they be in a rhino, maybe landraider or just footslogging. They only are toughness 4 with a 4+ armor and fnp. So not super survivable on their own. Rhinos are cheaper then LRs, but they are also not assault vehicles, so the turn they get out they kinda just sit there. LR are assault vehicles but then this puts the unit at 500 pts or higher, for an assault unit that is not as good as TWC.

How have other people thought of running them?
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

Not a wolf player, but I think you'd be crazy to not give them TH/SS. BOTH for 20 points on a str5 base model is an amazingly good deal, and even if they do somehow die before their initiative step in CC, they still get to attack.

Footslogging may not be a bad option, as they get run and charge, I believe.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




My biggest issue with running and giving ss/th is they will most likely be immediately shot off the field and that is an expensive unit to just get immediately shot off. Their ability to attack even if killed before initiative step is not useful if they are killed before getting in close combat.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I just played a game against two orc players (they each had a 2000 point list and I had 4000 of wolves for a league we're in and there was an uneven number that week) and they had a ton of rokkit shots. . I was running the murderpack formation and I had 2 squads with the loadout you suggested but with a pack leader for the bonus LD which did make a difference in game. As i said they had a ton of S8 ap3 between the 3 battlewagons and tankbustas. but being bs2 helped me not get shot off but the SS were invaluable. My issue with them was I never really got to use the table because i was footslogging them and my landraiders moving 12 and then going flat out and my skyclaws and TWC moving 12 then running put most of my army out of range of the wulfen even if i had run 6 inches. But they were able to mop up any unit that they came up against after the rest of my army punched though the front.

With your concern of SS/TH getting shot off immediately, with out them they are easier to get shot off once your run isn't enough to get you into cover and they shoot some missiles at you or even some AP4 weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/22 17:10:57


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




These guys are really good when you give them a TH/SS. Really good.

With that load-out you have to compare them to Necron Wraiths. 50 ppm vs 40 ppm or probably more like 50 ppm vs 50 ppm if you consider the Canoptek Harvest and the scarabs and spyder a tax on the Wraith's RP.

Wraiths are more mobile but a lot less killy than the Wulfen.

The Wulfen are super-killy in fact with counter-attack, rage, and death frenzy plus they boost the mobility and killiness of proximate units with Curse of the Wulfen.

These guys also have true s10 hammer attacks as opposed to TWC who have s9 hammer attacks since their +1 str comes from wargear.

The Wulfen are more survivable overall since they have a FNP which cannot be taken away when the Canoptek Spyder is killed.

TH/SS on these guys is super good!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/22 20:26:25


 
   
Made in ie
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Wulfen are NOT easy to shoot down. They are insanely tough, mathematically you are paying 25 points per wound, with a 2++ against anything not S8+ , that's just the 2 hammer guys in front, which is 4 2++ wounds to get through.

For small arms fire, it's like killing 4 terminators, each worth 25pts.
For S8+ its like killing 2 TH/SS termies, (intant death, and negaating FNP)
But very few people bring S8+ in droves.

I suggest running them in a Stormwolf, worst case scenario, you get shot down, and lose half the squad, and the following half will make their points back next turn.
Best case scenario, you murder everything.

Claws are just stupid good. 6 AP2 attacks at S6 with Shred on the charge is insane. If you charge anything that's not AV13+ you will ruin it, if it is AV13, well, that's what the S10 hammers are for.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I'm pretty sure TWC also have S10 attacks. They have S5 in their statline base therefore they get S10 with things like Thunder Hammers.

I wouldn't give all of them TH/SS as that seems pretty expensive.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ie
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




TWC are technically S9 , (multiple modifiers)
People (mostly wolf players) consider this stupid.

Technically in combat they are S4 (x2) TH (+1) wolf.
As it goes, multiply -> add/subtract -> set number.

There is technically no precedent for straight up altering their S4. They are just S4 (+1)
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




How are they S9. You look at their statline which is S5 and double it. 2 x 5 = 10.

With characters who purchase the mount I can accept your argument. With standard TWC I do not because their profile says S5.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ie
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Not my argument, I'm just repeating what I've heard local wolf players complaining about, could very well be tourney rulings.

I mean someone could still make the argument that although they are S5 on their statline, it says its a +1, so theyd still follow the multiple modifiers rules.

But , it's pretty hard to argue with 5 x 2 = 10
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:
How are they S9. You look at their statline which is S5 and double it. 2 x 5 = 10.

With characters who purchase the mount I can accept your argument. With standard TWC I do not because their profile says S5.


The Thunderwolf mount is wargear and that means the multiple modifiers rule is in effect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/22 21:43:08


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




harkequin wrote:
Wulfen are NOT easy to shoot down. They are insanely tough, mathematically you are paying 25 points per wound, with a 2++ against anything not S8+ , that's just the 2 hammer guys in front, which is 4 2++ wounds to get through.

For small arms fire, it's like killing 4 terminators, each worth 25pts.
For S8+ its like killing 2 TH/SS termies, (intant death, and negaating FNP)
But very few people bring S8+ in droves.

I suggest running them in a Stormwolf, worst case scenario, you get shot down, and lose half the squad, and the following half will make their points back next turn.
Best case scenario, you murder everything.

Claws are just stupid good. 6 AP2 attacks at S6 with Shred on the charge is insane. If you charge anything that's not AV13+ you will ruin it, if it is AV13, well, that's what the S10 hammers are for.


I guess my biggest issues with them is I play people who like to bring stormsurges or leman russes, which just annihilate the wulfen before they can do anything. Every time I have used them my opponents just dropped a pie plate or massed str. 8 shots that just annihilated them. But I think that is more a meta thing.

Though other than FnP TWC accomplish the job better, also a little more survivable since toughness 5.
   
Made in ie
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




oz of the north wrote:
harkequin wrote:
Wulfen are NOT easy to shoot down. They are insanely tough, mathematically you are paying 25 points per wound, with a 2++ against anything not S8+ , that's just the 2 hammer guys in front, which is 4 2++ wounds to get through.

For small arms fire, it's like killing 4 terminators, each worth 25pts.
For S8+ its like killing 2 TH/SS termies, (intant death, and negaating FNP)
But very few people bring S8+ in droves.

I suggest running them in a Stormwolf, worst case scenario, you get shot down, and lose half the squad, and the following half will make their points back next turn.
Best case scenario, you murder everything.

Claws are just stupid good. 6 AP2 attacks at S6 with Shred on the charge is insane. If you charge anything that's not AV13+ you will ruin it, if it is AV13, well, that's what the S10 hammers are for.


I guess my biggest issues with them is I play people who like to bring stormsurges or leman russes, which just annihilate the wulfen before they can do anything. Every time I have used them my opponents just dropped a pie plate or massed str. 8 shots that just annihilated them. But I think that is more a meta thing.

Though other than FnP TWC accomplish the job better, also a little more survivable since toughness 5.


Yeah, locally it tends to favor more S6/7 or just a gak-load of bolters from gladius.
One thing that makes them significantly better than TWC is their killing power, I5 AP2 shred.

I played against them with a ravenguard list, and my vanguard vets couldn't touch them, at all. To charge the wulfen squad , I'd lose 5 Vets at I5 before they even get to swing, the 5 power axe vets (because against Wulfen I4 may as well be I1) do 20 attacks (let's give them zealot from a chaplain) 15 hits, 10 AP2 wounds at I1 , 3 after SS, 2 after FNP. Including HoW, if my dice were hot, and i get 10 wounds, I kill 2 wulfen total. Then Vets are wiped.

270 points of vanguard vets kill 100 points of Wulfen , when I charge them. Other way around and i lose 270 points, and might get one kill if im lucky.

TWC are infinitely less frustrating, If i charge them with Vanguard Vets, Everyone dies at I1.
6 HoW wounds, 2 after SS/ armor.
40 attacks (again zealot) 30 hits, 15 wounds , 5 after SS. I kill 3.5 TWC, probably 4 with chappy swinging. At I 1 3 TWC will kill 5 Vets, much better results than Vs Wulfen.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




col_impact wrote:
pm713 wrote:
How are they S9. You look at their statline which is S5 and double it. 2 x 5 = 10.

With characters who purchase the mount I can accept your argument. With standard TWC I do not because their profile says S5.


The Thunderwolf mount is wargear and that means the multiple modifiers rule is in effect.


What number do you use when calculating the modified S?

Question: What are people's thoughts on the grenade launchers? Are people going to take the minimum amount or put them on all the Wulfen?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I would put the grenade launchers on at least on to start and then as I have to start putting up points on little upgrades at the end I would start putting them on other models as well. I wouldn't put them on any TH/SS models because they go at I1 regardless and will most likely die first as you will probably tanking saves off them from shooting.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
pm713 wrote:
How are they S9. You look at their statline which is S5 and double it. 2 x 5 = 10.

With characters who purchase the mount I can accept your argument. With standard TWC I do not because their profile says S5.


The Thunderwolf mount is wargear and that means the multiple modifiers rule is in effect.


What number do you use when calculating the modified S?


The S value has been modified by wargear to be a value of 5.

So (4 x 2) + 1 = 9 per the Multiple Modifiers rule.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




col_impact wrote:
pm713 wrote:
col_impact wrote:
pm713 wrote:
How are they S9. You look at their statline which is S5 and double it. 2 x 5 = 10.

With characters who purchase the mount I can accept your argument. With standard TWC I do not because their profile says S5.


The Thunderwolf mount is wargear and that means the multiple modifiers rule is in effect.


What number do you use when calculating the modified S?


The S value has been modified by wargear to be a value of 5.

So (4 x 2) + 1 = 9 per the Multiple Modifiers rule.

The statline shows a 5. You use the number in the statline as the start point for the modifiers.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon





Kalamazoo

Assault transports are golden for Wolfen. I think a mix of TH/SS and claws are better then all one or the other.

If you can take an Ironwolf formation and swap them into the wolf guard's crusader, you can move 12, disembark 6, run d6 and then assault 2d6.

Too bad you can only get one land raider this way.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:

The statline shows a 5. You use the number in the statline as the start point for the modifiers.


You got a rules quote that backs that up?

I got a rules quote that backs me up.

Spoiler:
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/22 22:36:40


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Durandal wrote:

If you can take an Ironwolf formation and swap them into the wolf guard's crusader, you can move 12, disembark 6, run d6 and then assault 2d6.

They can't start in someone else's Dedicated Transport. So it's still a turn 2 charge.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




col_impact wrote:
pm713 wrote:

The statline shows a 5. You use the number in the statline as the start point for the modifiers.


You got a rules quote that backs that up?

I got a rules quote that backs me up.

Spoiler:
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

You have a quote backing up how it works with the characters who buy the mount you mean. Sadly I don't have my rulebook with me. But hey I may have been getting this part of the game wrong for years because the stat profile means nothing.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






col_impact wrote:
pm713 wrote:

The statline shows a 5. You use the number in the statline as the start point for the modifiers.


You got a rules quote that backs that up?

I got a rules quote that backs me up.

Spoiler:
Multiple Modifiers
If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.


The actual rules help here.
In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).


Bolded for emphasis. This bonus is a modifier to a characteristic, they're just making it str5 on the profile for convenience. The multiple modifiers rule is very clear here. TWC w/ PF are str9. The only way they get s10 is with furious charge (or another modifier).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




pm713 wrote:

You have a quote backing up how it works with the characters who buy the mount you mean. Sadly I don't have my rulebook with me. But hey I may have been getting this part of the game wrong for years because the stat profile means nothing.


The Thunderwolf mount is standard wargear for TWC so the Multiple Modifiers rule is applied.

If the mount was somehow not wargear then they would get s10 hammer attacks, but alas the mount is wargear.

The S5 that the Wulfen have does not come from wargear so they get s10 with hammer attacks.
   
Made in bn
Regular Dakkanaut





Personally I'd take 2 units of 5. 1 pack leader with claws for so!e high initiative nastiness and 4 with the SS for durability and str 10. I would then take a cad or formation of wolves and take 2 drop pods and drop them turn 1 (take 1 pod with blood claws or whatever so you have 3 total).

I'd then ally in dark angel ravenwing...and scput up and attach 2 characters such as Libby's or Samuel and attach them turn 1 to tank with a re rollable cover save or anything which ignores cover,ass omto the wulfen. Good luck assaulting or stopping that.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Best way ive seen them run is to keep them cheap, minimum sized units all kitted out with Frost Axes and put into a Landraider, throw them at your opponents big scay unit (Wraithknight, Riptide, ect). and watch it get smashed apart in a single turn of combat.

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