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Haven't been to these forums in awhile, hope this ok to post.

I am starting OnG and wanted to know what's a good force composition? I like to use the pool system on scrollbuilder.com usually 15 to 25 points. But if you guys are not familiar with that I would like a 50 wound list please.

I love everything about black orcs and they seem great with synergy from black orc big bosses and additionally in the ironjaws formation too but what about the best way for night goblins? I know they get the close combat buff but if I make them shooty to help with range is this viable?

Thanks all!

http://bit.ly/1UjqzNl

This is what I use, except 25 Savage orcs since I use the age of balance system. Pretty devastating army. Grimgor is the general. As long as he is near Azhag he auto hits. He makes the immortals hit on 2 with his command ability while making Azhag hit more often with his venomous tails. The savage orcs are the tar pit but the two big stabbas are devastating damage. Doom diver for long range support. The River trolls are the Anvil. I send them up against units that have "On 6" effects since they have a -1 hit aura it prevents the enemies from achieving those "On 6" effects. Azhag is really just the distraction and a tough one at that while the immortals and grimgor close in. Those two are the real heavy hitters. 10 Immortals hit on 2 and wound on 3 with 1 rend and 1 damage for a total of 20 attacks. Pretty high hit rate. Grimgor auto hits with a 3 to wound and 2 rend with 2 damage. Even better hit rate. Wurrzhag is there because he can cast two spells and gets a bonus to unbinding and slaying enemy wizards. This lets you cast mystic shield on Grimgor or Azhag, prioritizing Grimgor as well as damaging someone with a second spell using arcane bolt or if there is a wizard bonus damage to him. Savage orcs have ranged attacks for some bonus damage. Decent hit rate, double save attempts, big stabba is absolutely amazing and they rend. Another option would be instead of the bully and doom diver I'll take a Thundertusk, forcing the enemy to target them letting Azhag wipe the floor with his venomous tail.

If you want a gimicky shooty army there are goblins.

http://bit.ly/1UjrxJs

This allows you to attack 120 times at ranged with a 2 to hit and 2 to wound and 1 rend. Then when they get into combat the skulkers can interrupt and prevent the enemy from piling and and surrounding them, but when its the goblins turn to attack they still get a lot of attacks with the warboss ability.

Dat Guy wrote:
I am starting OnG and wanted to know what's a good force composition?

Good? This is AOS, everything is pretty decent, so you get to take what you want!

I like to use the pool system on scrollbuilder.com usually 15 to 25 points.

Smart, +1 for pool or SDK. Let's go for 15 since that's easier to build towards (assuming you're starting from scratch).

But if you guys are not familiar with that I would like a 50 wound list please.

Using a pool system is going to get you way more than 50 wounds

I love everything about black orcs and they seem great with synergy from black orc big bosses and additionally in the ironjaws formation too

Me too! We'll start with an Ironjaws formation and add from there.

but what about the best way for night goblins?
I know they get the close combat buff but if I make them shooty to help with range is this viable?

I'd say use 'em to shoot personally, let the proper orcs get the bashing done. I'mma stick to ranged and magic for these grots ...

Here's a shot from me:

IRONJAWS BIG MOB:
Black Orc Big Boss
10 Black Orcs
10 Black Orcs
10 Black Orcs
Giant
+
Night Goblin Shaman
30 Night Goblins - bows
Doom Diver
-------------------------------------
15 POOL / 121 WOUNDS

Little bit of magic, decent bit of dakka, some serious synergy, and a truckload of orcs wanting to bash in some faces. The night gobs can also bring a weird amount of hurt in combat, as they wound on 3+ until one of them bites it

If you're less thrilled by the goblin part, the Ironjaws section alone is 9 pool points, so you've got 6 pools to work with.

- Salvage

Awesome replies both of you.

Glad to see you are both familiar with the pool system, it seems like it's the least popular even though to me it has a more even balance amongst all forces while trying to keep a quick set up for the purpose of AoS.

So regular gobbos for shooting because of bonus to hit plus spells increased wound
But
Night goblins can take both banners and the archers will have a 5+ save against other shooty things.
I do like the regular gobbo with skulker strategy makes sense.

Dat Guy wrote:
So regular gobbos for shooting because of bonus to hit plus spells increased wound
But
Night goblins can take both banners and the archers will have a 5+ save against other shooty things.

Yea, I noticed after the fact that the Goblin Shaman can buff a horde of Goblin Archers pretty nicely. I'm pretty sure I went with Night Gobs only because of the cheap, easy to build, easy to paint archer minis from the BFSP box

If you've got a source on Common Gobs, those seem to make more sense as a shooting component. The Night Gob banners are decent, though I'm pretty sure there isn't a comp out there that allows you to take both banners at once (including both of the scrollbuilder options)

- Salvage

Dat Guy wrote:
Awesome replies both of you.

Glad to see you are both familiar with the pool system, it seems like it's the least popular even though to me it has a more even balance amongst all forces while trying to keep a quick set up for the purpose of AoS.

So regular gobbos for shooting because of bonus to hit plus spells increased wound
But
Night goblins can take both banners and the archers will have a 5+ save against other shooty things.
I do like the regular gobbo with skulker strategy makes sense.

Both pool and SDK system can be exploited. I like the age of balance system the most. It doesn't change any of the core rules and promotes a very balanced system. www.ageofbalance.com

Thank you, I looked it up it seems reasonable eniugh, not sure if I agree with the more than 10 wounds counts as 2 war scrolls since those models start getting weaker after 3 or more wounds.

NitosApprentice wrote:
Both pool and SDK system can be exploited. I like the age of balance system the most. It doesn't change any of the core rules ...

Not looking to get into a huge debate here, but wanted to back up SDK and point out that I don't think it changes any core rule of any kind, unless I missed something? Is it not just a pointing system that uses a rather complex calculation derived from the warscrolls themselves? Hence its beauty. I'd actually be curious how you think SDK can be exploited specifically, since it's basically just math.

And the pool system the OP is using is not Azyr Comp, though the pool points involved are fairly similar (as are many of these pool dealies). Which is to say, I'm not sure there are core rules changes being assumed here, though no doubt some will happen when whatever O&G list here hits the field.

On my part, I've yet to be impressed by systems that use number of warscrolls to approximate balance, as that tack seems to work against those weird warscrolls of 1+ models (chariots, spawn, medusa, etc) that aren't heroes or monsters or warmachines - and any comp that limits the number of choices is bad in my book.

- Salvage

I do not have any experience outside of pool or wounds building.

I think a high points system takes away from the simplicity of bringing an army.

What I looked into for different systems one system had a high elf Prince on Dragon at 9 points as an example and another at 5.

The lore master of hoeth is odd. One system had him at 1, another at 2.5 and yet still at 4 points and they are not scaled to even proportions amongst each system.

I believe about what he meant with detracting from the rules isn't directly a rule thing but the original intention of what AoS tries to bring.

Since there isn't an official rule for point system AND there are many attempts with different methods of calculation it does not equal out amongst all systems.

It's like a black orc with a shield is 13 points like swordmasters of hoeth in 8th edition fantasy, they are by no means equal on any level even they are both a special selection.

Who knows how or why GW did it that way, but a set mathematical breakdown does not fix this system.

It has to be done on a army per army basis. For 13 points those black orcs are properly pointed when compared to the orc army itself but when compared to a swordmaster or chaos warrior, not so much. It's about the synergy of an army as a whole.

I like how you both have different opinions when helping me out with my Orc and Goblin army. All the answers benefited me and is going to help GW make a lot of monies.

Night Goblins have lots of coolness. Squigs, nets, doom divers, fanatics, etc in addition to large blocks of spears and bows.

Don't overlook the advantage of small models either ... smaller bases means you can get more models into hand to hand.

endur wrote:
Night Goblins have lots of coolness. Squigs, nets, doom divers, fanatics, etc in addition to large blocks of spears and bows.

Don't overlook the advantage of small models either ... smaller bases means you can get more models into hand to hand.

Exactly right? Thought small bases are better but rules do say by model

All versions of warhammer have had minor benefits for smaller models, whether you are measuring from the model or the base.

Example: Stormcast Eternals, 40mm base
Goblins, 20mm base

You could have two Goblin bases adjacent facing 1 Stormcast model.

If the Goblins and the Stormcast were two ranks deep and both had 1" weapons, then the Goblins can probably fight from the second rank, but the second rank of stormcast are too far away.

So you could end up with four goblins fighting for every stormcast model.

Granted, Stormcast are tough, and some of them are more than four times tougher than a goblin, but not all of them.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

NitosApprentice wrote:
Both pool and SDK system can be exploited. I like the age of balance system the most. It doesn't change any of the core rules ...

Not looking to get into a huge debate here, but wanted to back up SDK and point out that I don't think it changes any core rule of any kind, unless I missed something? Is it not just a pointing system that uses a rather complex calculation derived from the warscrolls themselves? Hence its beauty. I'd actually be curious how you think SDK can be exploited specifically, since it's basically just math.

And the pool system the OP is using is not Azyr Comp, though the pool points involved are fairly similar (as are many of these pool dealies). Which is to say, I'm not sure there are core rules changes being assumed here, though no doubt some will happen when whatever O&G list here hits the field.

On my part, I've yet to be impressed by systems that use number of warscrolls to approximate balance, as that tack seems to work against those weird warscrolls of 1+ models (chariots, spawn, medusa, etc) that aren't heroes or monsters or warmachines - and any comp that limits the number of choices is bad in my book.

- Salvage

It just doesn't look at synergy, abilities and values the points too low on models that look weak.

http://bit.ly/1T8jCjb

This right here. With the synergy every single turn you would get three volleys of 43-45 ranged attacks that hit on 2, wound on 3 and have 1 rend. That's 125 ranged attacks every turn with a good wound chance. That's not including the wolf chariots who also get ranged attacks. You also may think they are susceptible to battleshock, while true but the nasty skulkers can interrupt you from engaging the goblins and pile in, in a formation that prevents you from reaching the goblins. Then when its the goblins turn for a melee attack they hit and wound on 2/3 with 1 rend. If you choose to use the goblin warboss' command ability instead of inspiring presence then you get 2 attacks EACH. Then the skulkers are nothing to laugh at either.

This was just something I whipped together in two minutes. There are several units just not balanced well with SDK that make certain armies much more powerful than others.

I'd probably go with Fanatics over skulkers. Skulkers can't stop a charge, Fanatics stop charges.

endur wrote:
I'd probably go with Fanatics over skulkers. Skulkers can't stop a charge, Fanatics stop charges.

Fanatics have to attach to night goblins, skulkers are for goblins.

Interesting breakdown. Is it even worth bringing shooty goblins mixed with melee orcs?

I know that shooty list works but if I have one unit to be shooty is it worth it?

I ask again because 16" is not far enough away and I usually get charged because of cavalry units or a foot unit gets to run and charge.

Also where I play we don't shoot while in close combat even though rules do not say you can't.

Are these systems developed in mind that these units can still shoot while in close combat then fight in the same close combat hand to hand?

Dat Guy wrote:
Interesting breakdown. Is it even worth bringing shooty goblins mixed with melee orcs?

I know that shooty list works but if I have one unit to be shooty is it worth it?

I ask again because 16" is not far enough away and I usually get charged because of cavalry units or a foot unit gets to run and charge.

Also where I play we don't shoot while in close combat even though rules do not say you can't.

Are these systems developed in mind that these units can still shoot while in close combat then fight in the same close combat hand to hand?

If you have an orc army, take savage orcs as your shooters since they benefit from orruk things, take several units if you want since they are good at both melee and ranged. If you have a goblin army, take several units of goblins since they can be shooters and melee. Trolls also have a good ranged attack. I play RAW, so a shooting phase and a combat phase able to perform in both. Orcs and Goblins dont really have a 'ranged only' unit since AoS rules allow you to attack in both.