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Okay, let's turn the classic social psychology question on the Legiones Astartes of the 30th Millennium.

I was just reading the short story "Templar" (formerly an audio drama, which I find...taxing...to listen to, so new to me) about Sigismund and his first time killing other Space Marines in the form of Word Bearers. He's all angst-y about it, but then as soon as he gets into battle:

"The killing rhythm flows through Sigismund. It feels different, detached, like a tableau moving before him, painted in blurred speed and the spray of blood."

Two minutes into it and he's totally over it. The accompanying representative from Terra offers this: "You are thinking tha tyou are a blood-killer now...a slayer of your gene kin. You are, First Captain. That is exactly what you are."

So, my basic question is: Was there any real choice for the Space Marines on a Legion-wide scale? I know that Isstvaan III saw the "Traitor Legions" purge their numbers and that there were exceptions like Nathaniel Garro who refused to follow along with their Primarchs' treachery, but obviously most of the Legionnaires went along with whatever their Gene-Father decided. So, why am I surprised at this? The Space Marines were genetically bred to be obedient killers--to follow orders, and to put the needs of the Imperium before their own, or even those of Individuals. (Yes, very Right Wing in some ways) There are lots of examples of this in recent books--the Alpha Legion being a good example (See "Deliverance Lost"); going along with their Primarchs' decisions from a strategic standpoint, if not because of any real hatred of the Emperor, or love for the other Legions.

But at the same time, they literally contain the genetic material of their Primarch, and much has been written in the HH novels about the way the Legionnaires FEEL around their Primarchs, and even other Primarchs. So there seems to be something in their coding that makes them obedient, subservient, even worshipful to their Primarchs, which makes some sense.

Now, there is also the Emperor and his "Glammer"--which seems irresistible, but perhaps only in person? So why are the Space Marines not genetically coded to Him above even their Primarchs? I mean, this is basic "Order 66" stuff here, right? Why design a genetically engineered army and not program in loyalty to the Emperor above all?

So...Nature or Nurture? Why did some of the White Scars rebel against their Primarch, and even World Eaters were deemed too untrustworthy and therefore condemned to die on Isstvaan III? But not Ultramarines? No Imperial Fists rebelling? No Blood Angels? And then of course the Dark Angels...well, who knows?

You know how at every job, there's a group of people that spend most of their time together, probably working in close proximity and they all seem to act as an Echo Chamber for how much they hate this job?

That's kinda how I figure it worked. If the Primarch constantly felt like he was getting shafted, Perturabo being an GREAT example because the Iron Warriors mostly got the meat grinder jobs, then that Primarch's attitude would effect how his most Loyal High Ranking members act as well. And those high ranked members' would effect the men they oversee, so on so forth. So some part of the legion would say, "This job fething bites, as soon as Perty says the word, we're totally gonna blow the joint." and the parts led by people not in Perturabo's inner circle would stay loyal to the Emperor

Another example of what I'm talking about is Loken. Even though he was in the Mournival, he wasn't in it very long. The other three Members were Veterans in that Council, so when Horus decided he was going to open his own shop because working for Dad sucked, Loken wasn't around his primarch as long as Abbadon was, so Loken was still loyal to the Emperor instead of being in Horus' influence for so long he became another speaker in the Echo Chamber.

Yes and the personality of their primarchs had influence on their "offspring" as well as the shoddy way in which the emperor handled some of the primarchs turn faster.

For sure, and some of the Primarchs clearly had a tougher go of it than others. I mean, Mortarion and Angron both landed on horrible worlds and were subjected to real terrors, while Guilliman was raised like a Prince, trained in state-craft, etc. Curze, well...yeah not a nice environment.

However, some of them were just more resilient, or made different choices, like Corax as opposed to Curze--similar settings in a lot of ways, but different outcomes by far!

I wish I knew more about that aspect of the backgrounds of the Primarchs, and I feel like they are trying to bulk it out in HH novels.

However, this "inner circle" explanation (and it's a good one--I agree with it on a command level) still doesn't explain why some of the Legions turned so seemingly absolutely, or saw no-one turn at all. The White Scars novel definitely portrays it as a cultural thing--the Terrans rebelled, while the others (Chogorian? Sounds so like "Cthonian" which is Horus's guys right?) did not.

Mortarion I don't feel is a fair primarch to bring up in this situation because the Poor guy Never stood a chance. IIRC, He and the part of the Legion that did turn LITERALLY went through hell and left broken men that once again LITERALLY sold their souls to the Devil in hopes they'd make it out alive.

Magnus was kinda in the same Boat. IIRC he didn't really swap teams completely by choice, he just kinda Freaked out when the Emperor's new project was destroyed due to him breaking the rules to try and warn him that Horus snapped and when he Figured out that the Wolves were coming to wipe them out. And His Freaking out and Super Psyker powers kinda drew Tzeentch's attention and by the time Magnus figured out what he had done, he was too deep to really do anything about it. Followed by Arhiman making everything MUCH worse than originally planned trying to fix what Magnus kinda broke.

Angron is a great example though. He pretty much started off with a rocky relationship with the Big E. Turning Him to Chaos really didn't take any more effort than saying, "Wanna get back at Dad for letting your friends die when you guys first met?"

And Each Marine would still carry their own opinion of who they held in high esteem: Primarch or Emperor. Each Legion was led by the Emperor IIRC while they looked for the Primarchs. So it's possible that the ones that served with Big E directly might feel more loyal to him than the Primarch, even though the Primarch is the "Father" of the Legion.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Mortarion I don't feel is a fair primarch to bring up in this situation because the Poor guy Never stood a chance. IIRC, He and the part of the Legion that did turn LITERALLY went through hell and left broken men that once again LITERALLY sold their souls to the Devil in hopes they'd make it out alive.

Don't think I can agree there, its pretty clear in the HH novels that Mortarion had already gone over to Horus before the whole getting stuck in the warp and being plagued to death by Nurgle.

Magnus I think there is a case for as he was kind of trying to do the right thing but only really to try and justify his breaking of the Emperors command about not using magic.

Angron, well he was clearly a mental case from the use of the murdernails anyway so he is not a very good example to use.

For me you can see there were divisions within the Legions from the start; as far as I can tell every legion had the original Terran recruits and then had "primarch planet" recruits thrown into the mix and the whole who is better, who is closer to the emperor and/or primarch dynamic.

Being genetically superior didn't do away with all the other human frailties like envy, greed, jealousy, hatred, if anything it seems to have amplified them. Look at Horus, in his fever dream it wasn't as much the terrible future that he was shown of man downtrodden and the emperor as a god that turned him, it was that he Horus wasn't up there in lights with the rest. That's just jealousy and ego.

Now I will admit that I think sadly the HH authors have had to massively simplify the dynamic of decisions and feelings of the primarchs and that's left them seeming very child like and limited in some of their choices so it might be better to assume there was much more depth that we just have not seen.

Well, the Thousand Sons didn't side with their primarch in treachery at all, so it can't all be nature.

TS as a legion kinda got forced into it. After Magnus screwed up and then screwed them by sabotaging the planets defense it was either die or fight back.

And what about Russ & his Wolves? As the "Instrument of the Emperor's Discipline" he is on record as having been sent to punish the World Eaters and the TS...and perhaps 2 other Legions?

So his obedience is clearly to the Emperor, but would his Vika Fenrika have had any problem if he told them to invade Terra?

I immagine a part of the wolves would turn with russ and part would resist.

If he decided too attack a loyalist primarch rather thenn Terra directly almost the whole legion would follow him.

Russ wasn't send by the emperor too punish the World eaters tho, he did that on his own accord and got called out for it.

Neither was he supposed too punish the thousand sons it was horus wo changed the order.

I think in many cases it's both. Some Primarchs were likely doomed no matter what the emperor did and would have rebelled at some point no matter what the Emperor did. However most could have stayed in the fold if the Big E wasn't a dead beat dad at certain points of the Crusade and actually told his sons what he was doing/Chaos's true nature. Going Individually

Horus- Much of what Chaos used to tempt him and drive him from his father would have been neutralized if Dad hadn't vanished without telling his son anything and started to take authority away from the marines. Horus likely would not have fell if He knew about the Webway project and if Dad could be bothered to answer the phone every now and then.

Fulgrim- This one is complicated due to him getting slipped a demon blade but Horus falling was largely responsible for his fall. If Horus had stayed loyal It is likely Fulgrim would have as well.

Magnus- I feel like he was screwed from the beginning but If Dad had bothered to tell him about the webway project he would likely not wrecked the GT.

Peturabo- He had a massive guilt complex due to having to whip out much of his home world, but if the Emperor had said thank you once and a while and not given him endless bloody crap details he might have stayed loyal.

Mortarion- Another Primarch burned by Dad's lies, he took the reveal of the true nature of Chaos hard. Additionally he would have been unlikely to have been swayed that the emperor was a power mad monster if the Emperor had not been shady about the webway project.

Angron- He was doomed due to his upbringing and the butcher nail but the Emperor basically writing him off as a lost cause with one look did not help the matter. Truthfully the Emperor should have never reunited him with his legion, and should have had him quietly killed.

Curze- Another Primarch that was never going to get a happy ending. He was basically in open revolt before the Heresy even happened. I doubt any amount of intervention would have saved him due to his extreme mental illness.

Lorgar- Chaos has it's hands on him from the beginning, but again a combination of lies, neglect and outright abuse by Dad pushed him over the edge. Seriously, you were his entire world and you respond by blowing up his city, Lauding Guilliman over him and embarrassing him in front of all his sons was a dick move.

Alpharius- Who knows, not touching this one.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Peturabo- He had a massive guilt complex due to having to whip out much of his home world, but if the Emperor had said thank you once and a while and not given him endless bloody crap details he might have stayed loyal.

Actually, the Emperor had almost nothing to do with Perty's fall, since other Legions would ask the Iron Warriors for help, he would say yes, then the other Legions would receive the credit for the victory. If Perty had learned to say "no" every once in a while, he and his men would have been far better off.

Angron- He was doomed due to his upbringing and the butcher nail but the Emperor basically writing him off as a lost cause with one look did not help the matter. Truthfully the Emperor should have never reunited him with his legion, and should have had him quietly killed.

iirc, Angron murdered one of the Emperor's Custodes as soon as the Emperor met him, which pissed the Emperor off, so the Emperor just sort of went "how do you like it?" and left Angron's buddies to die.

Angron- He was doomed due to his upbringing and the butcher nail but the Emperor basically writing him off as a lost cause with one look did not help the matter. Truthfully the Emperor should have never reunited him with his legion, and should have had him quietly killed.

iirc, Angron murdered one of the Emperor's Custodes as soon as the Emperor met him, which pissed the Emperor off, so the Emperor just sort of went "how do you like it?" and left Angron's buddies to die.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the loyalists killed at Isstvan terrans while the turncoats were from the primarch's homeworlds? This would indicate are strong cultural influence rather than genetic.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the loyalists killed at Isstvan terrans while the turncoats were from the primarch's homeworlds? This would indicate are strong cultural influence rather than genetic.

^This. And don't forget that those who grew up with the traitor primarchs on their homeworlds likely had a much stronger personal connection to them, and a less strong personal connection to this new "Imperium" thing, which the Terran marines had basically been indoctrinated into their whole lives.

And what about Russ & his Wolves? As the "Instrument of the Emperor's Discipline" he is on record as having been sent to punish the World Eaters and the TS...and perhaps 2 other Legions?

He was not sent to punish the World Eaters. He decided to do that all on his own - which is what Angron realised and why he ended up having to run away, because it was either that or kill Angron.

Note that there were loyalist and traitor elements of EVERY legion.

The World Eaters, Sons Of Horus, Death Guard and Emperor's Children had a major civil war on Istvaan IV.
The Iron Warriors had a smaller one in the Damatyne citadel.


We've seen traitor white scars twice - indeed the higher ranking officers end up having a sort-of-civil-war before it becomes clear which side the Khan is on.

The alpha legion are very much on their own sides. As in "more than one".

There are no shortage of 'detached forces' which came down on the other side to their parent legion. Many of them ended up becoming 'black shields'

 dusara217 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Peturabo- He had a massive guilt complex due to having to whip out much of his home world, but if the Emperor had said thank you once and a while and not given him endless bloody crap details he might have stayed loyal.

Actually, the Emperor had almost nothing to do with Perty's fall, since other Legions would ask the Iron Warriors for help, he would say yes, then the other Legions would receive the credit for the victory. If Perty had learned to say "no" every once in a while, he and his men would have been far better off.

Perty is definitely the saddest of Primarchs. He had no friends and no one ever liked him, yet he tried so hard. He always did his utmost best to help and please others. He did all the gakky jobs others did not want to do, and brought great sacrifices in doing so, but in the end no one ever acknowledged him and his achievements, preferring instead to fawn over "cool kid" Dorn and his awesome legion who were everything Perty had wanted to be. And then, on top of all that, even his own homeworld rebelled against him. That was the last thing that finally broke the Lord of Iron. You can tell that deep down, Perty was actually a really nice guy because he felt so guilty afterwards. All he had ever wanted to do was to design and build cool fortresses and awesome monuments for the Emperor.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most of the loyalists killed at Isstvan terrans while the turncoats were from the primarch's homeworlds? This would indicate are strong cultural influence rather than genetic.

Yes, they touch on that quite a bit in Flight of the Eisenstein. Garro was a Terran, I believe Typhon was not, there was rivalry there and a fair bit of nastiness directed from Typhon especially to the Terran borns.