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I frequently mess around with the IG codex, and I just wanted to put forward this suggestion to see what you guys think. It's a change to Commissars stats and how they're taken in a standard CAD

First of all, this will only work if you scrap Lord Commissars. Although nobody seems to use them anyway, so I don't think anyone will care.

With Lord Commissars gone, ordinary Commissars now look something like this:

Cost: 30pts
Stats: WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:10
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Wargear: Flak Armor, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades.
Options: May replace Bolt Pistol with either a boltgun or a plasma pistol. May take items from the melee and special issue wargear lists.
Special Rules: Independent Character, Summary Execution, Stubborn, Aura Of Discipline, Chain Of Command.

You may have 1 Commissar for every Company Command Squad, Platoon Command Squad and Scion Command Squad in your army, all taken together as a single HQ choice.

So they now have a stat line somewhere in between a normal Commissar and a Lord Commissar. With regards to the Initiative, I strongly believe that all hero level Schola Progenium trained characters (Commissars, Inquisitors, Arbiter Judges etc) should be I:4, to represent them being the very best of humanity (space marines not included). Although there is the potential to take lots of them in only a single FOC slot, it's dependent upon you taking platoons, so it balances out.

More importantly though, if I've done this right, it should still be possible to build a CAD around a single Infantry Platoon. 1 Commissar as your HQ, 1 Platoon to take the Commissar in the first place, and finally one Vet squad to complete the CAD. Very useful for small, fluffy games.

What do you guys think?

I think they should be WS and BS 5 if they are supposed to be the best of humanity, as 4 is pretty common

I was thinking about Inquisitors when I created their stats, but if you thinking that they can have WS and BS 5 then sure!

Inquisitors could probably buy a Lord Inquisitor upgrade for that, I guess

Looking at Space Marine characters like Chaplains and Librarians, I suppose a compromise of WS:5 BS:4 might be the best option.

I'd look at a Canoness for an idea of what a dedicated combat Schola graduate looks like. That said, I feel that WS/BS 5 is a bit much. Comissars are very good at what they do, but WS5 on what is basically a human hall monitor with a saber feels a bit much. Would you say the average comissar should be able to go blow for blow with a canoness who is the most accomplished combatant a sororitas order has to offer? In other words, out of, let's say, several hundred sisters, most of whom are WS 3, you have a single lady who can punch you at WS5. Does it seem like every single commissar should be her equal in combat prowess? I can see an argument either way, but personally, that doesn't feel quite right.

Now letting a commissar upgrade to a "lord commissar" or something with WS5 seems fine to me. I just don't think it should be the norm.

@ Wyldhunt

That's a very good point. I guess WS and BS 4 is the right number then.

What about the Initiative? I was using a Tempestor Prime, Inquisitor and Canoness as the inspiration. This just means that they'll be fighting a marine at the same time, so they might actually kill one once in a while, as happens in the fluff.

Also if I said that my other name is Tangi would that mean anything?

 Bobthehero wrote:
I think they should be WS and BS 5 if they are supposed to be the best of humanity, as 4 is pretty common

I'm not sold on every single commissar being a better shot and swordsman than a space marine.

I would make them WS4 and BS5. Makes a good pairing for a shooting army.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I think they should be WS and BS 5 if they are supposed to be the best of humanity, as 4 is pretty common

I'm not sold on every single commissar being a better shot and swordsman than a space marine.

Well if every Kriegsman can match one...

And if you're gonna call them ''the very best humanity has to offer'' it better come with a matching statsline.

I don't know what this is fixing to be honest. I like Lord Commissars, the model is absolutely bitchin'.

As for his utility, yeah, its sub par mostly, but the fix should be to buff him. The fluff is pretty clear that there are ranks within the Commissariat and having a Lord Commissar (or Colonel Commissar, or whatever badass variant) makes sense and allows you to represent that they truly are badass with their BS/WS 5. It also makes it easier to have the gradient of them being the finest humanity has to offer; WS/BS4 is the level of amazing, life dedication levels of skill while WS/BS5 is almost literally verging on the superhuman. Which makes Lord Commissars dope as feth.

I'd find a way to buff the Lords and tweak the normal Commissars so they have a bit more utility, or just make them a touch cheaper.

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't know what this is fixing to be honest. I like Lord Commissars, the model is absolutely bitchin'.

As for his utility, yeah, its sub par mostly, but the fix should be to buff him. The fluff is pretty clear that there are ranks within the Commissariat and having a Lord Commissar (or Colonel Commissar, or whatever badass variant) makes sense and allows you to represent that they truly are badass with their BS/WS 5. It also makes it easier to have the gradient of them being the finest humanity has to offer; WS/BS4 is the level of amazing, life dedication levels of skill while WS/BS5 is almost literally verging on the superhuman. Which makes Lord Commissars dope as feth.

I'd find a way to buff the Lords and tweak the normal Commissars so they have a bit more utility, or just make them a touch cheaper.

Indeed. Right now the main issue is that Priests do a Commissars job better in terms of making units hold the line or do more damage with their battle hymns. Not to mention more survivable being IC and having Rosarius base. Commissars only really help in terms of making it easier to pass orders on normal squads with their Ld9. I feel that they port over the Lord Commissar's ability from DoW2, where they can execute a member of the squad they're in to "motivate" them further and increase their damage output, maybe allowing them to re-roll 1's to hit? Or should it be a selection of options like an ethereals elemental ability?

I don't know, but I like where your head is at.

Something about shooting people to make them shoot better makes me happy.

That's from DOW 1 and it can make Kasrkins with an attached priest do amongst the highest dps in the game. Since you know, everyone around the Commissar freaks out. Even if you execute a standard guardsman.

 Bobthehero wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I think they should be WS and BS 5 if they are supposed to be the best of humanity, as 4 is pretty common

I'm not sold on every single commissar being a better shot and swordsman than a space marine.

Well if every Kriegsman can match one...

And if you're gonna call them ''the very best humanity has to offer'' it better come with a matching statsline.

That's fair. I really wise GW would makes Marines more elite and up their cost a little. This game has to many units to close in stats.

And I wish GW didn't crap out so much gakky Marine fluff that gives the idea that they should have crazy stats and whatnot, guess life's not perfect.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
@ Wyldhunt

That's a very good point. I guess WS and BS 4 is the right number then.

What about the Initiative? I was using a Tempestor Prime, Inquisitor and Canoness as the inspiration. This just means that they'll be fighting a marine at the same time, so they might actually kill one once in a while, as happens in the fluff.

Also if I said that my other name is Tangi would that mean anything?

Tangi! Why yes it would!

As for initiative, I would probably say to keep it at 3 with Lord Commissars going up to 4. Again, a canoness is the only initaitive 4 sister, and a lord commissar feels like he should be roughly her peer while regular commissars should probably be closer to storm troopers, vet guard, etc.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And I wish GW didn't crap out so much gakky Marine fluff that gives the idea that they should have crazy stats and whatnot, guess life's not perfect.

Gakky Fluff aside, Marines are a heavy investment for the IOM, and that should be represented accurately. They are the Grand children of the Emperor, the children of Demi Gods, and the force that lead the galaxy it's closest to the order of men.

Can their fluff get simplified to something silly, yes. So can every other faction (see C.S. Gato butchering all three Eldar factions). I'd like to have a bit more of difference between Astartes and IG on the table and I'm willing to take a price increase for that.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And I wish GW didn't crap out so much gakky Marine fluff that gives the idea that they should have crazy stats and whatnot, guess life's not perfect.

Gakky Fluff aside, Marines are a heavy investment for the IOM, and that should be represented accurately. They are the Grand children of the Emperor, the children of Demi Gods, and the force that lead the galaxy it's closest to the order of men.

Can their fluff get simplified to something silly, yes. So can every other faction (see C.S. Gato butchering all three Eldar factions). I'd like to have a bit more of difference between Astartes and IG on the table and I'm willing to take a price increase for that.

Totally agree. Personally, I'd really like to see marines be a very low model count army with each model being significantly more powerful than the average bear.

Hear, hear.

@ Wyldhunt

Yes it's me, Tangi! In hindsight I probably should have just called myself that to begin with.

Anyway, with everything that's been said, I think I have a better solution. Keep Lord commissars and instead just tweak the both of them:

Give normal commissars +1 wound, so that their stats now look like this:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:9

Special rules: independent character, stubborn, summary execution.

You still get 1 for every command squad (including tank commanders) in your army, and they're classed as independent characters, but ones who can't leave the unit they join until it's been destroyed (this way, they gain the other benefits of indie characters like look out sir! and heroic resolve, and become a little bit more flexible). And they get an extra wound, so they feel like an actual character now. Oh, and extra initiative to bring them into line with their old school mates tempestor primes and to make them more competitive when compared to priests.

Then we have Lord Commissars. I don't know what to do with their WS and BS stats, but their Initative should definitely be bumped up to 4. Also, I think that they should have voice of command as standard. That would instantly make them more useful in the grand scheme of things. Plus, they are Lord Commissars after all. I'm sure they can carry some authority.

Finally, both commissar types could use a points decrease. Especially the lord commissars, who cost as much as a Company Command Squad despite being nowhere near as useful. I think LCs should be around 30pts, and normal commissars even cheaper.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

You still get 1 for every command squad (including tank commanders) in your army, and they're classed as independent characters, but ones who can't leave the unit they join until it's been destroyed (this way, they gain the other benefits of indie characters like look out sir! and heroic resolve, and become a little bit more flexible).

Isn't this just a more complicated and restrictive version of what's already in the book? I don't see what this adding or improving upon.

And they get an extra wound, so they feel like an actual character now. Oh, and extra initiative to bring them into line with their old school mates tempestor primes and to make them more competitive when compared to priests.

Sure, extra wounds are nice.

Then we have Lord Commissars. I don't know what to do with their WS and BS stats, but their I should definitely be bumped up to 4. Also, I think that they should have voice of command as standard. That would instantly make them more useful in the grand scheme of things. Plus, they are Lord Commissars after all. I'm sure they can carry some authority.

Leave their WS/BS as is; 5/5 is perfectly reasonable. I4 or I3 doesn't make much of a difference anyways, so I'm leaning towards just leaving it as is for simplicity sake.

The whole Guard chain of command thing right now is kind of borked. Not sure how I'd fix it off the top of my head.

Finally, both commissar types could use a points decrease. Especially the lord commissars, who cost as much a Company Command Squad. I think LCs should be around 30pts.

Yeah, LCs could be cheaper. I think 30pts is too cheap, but a ~10pts decrease wouldn't unwelcome. Good budget HQ choice. If the standard commissars get an extra wound, they can keep their current cost.

 Blacksails wrote:

Isn't this just a more complicated and restrictive version of what's already in the book? I don't see what this adding or improving upon.

I should have explained better. Right now, ordinary commissars are just characters. Making them independent characters would increase their look out sir! roll to 2+, and would give the unit heroic resolve. Minor boosts I know but boosts none the less.

Actually, forget the bit about the destroyed units. Let's just make ordinary commissars straight up independent characters.

Sure, easy fix. Keep the current system of how they're bought, but just change them to IC instead of character.

Done and done.

I'm not sure if these changes help to make commissars more competitive when compared to priests though. Priests do it better.