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Bharring wrote:
Epr,
You make good points.

I'd argue that, in a more relaxed meta, even Genestealers and Wyches (and everything else there) have a place. Beer and pretzels (figuratively) and a fun meta can make almost anything work.

Is it the consensus that Scouts are better than Tacs? For some roles, certainly, but with everything Tacs can do, and with all their options, what do people think?

Outside of GSF I think there is very little debate. Scouts do everything better than tacs except tank ap4 firepower.

I'd also separate out Cultists in a Chaos Space Marine (or Black Legion, or Crimson Slaughter) army from cultists in a Khorne Daemonkin army.

In the latter, they're (a) a good source of blood tithe and (b) surprisingly nasty in a fight when augmented - Furious Charge, Rage and +1 attack makes them hit damn hard for cheap infantry.

I think the concensus that scouts are better than tacs was formed back when thy first got the WS4/BS4 upgrade.

Tacs may have better armor, and argueably better upgrade options-but scouts are just so much cheaper for the "bolter boys" (and most marines ARE bolter boys), and got all them nifty USRs that tacs just cant compete.

You always take scouts over tacs in a CAD. the only place you take tacs is in formations that do a lot (like gladius)



even if you ignore everything I've written in my last post, and take only one thing-scouts are all the way above fire warriors even. they do near equal shooting damage (price compared. per model they are identical against all but AV10/11, where the FW are a tiny bit ahead), far superior CC damage, got superior grenades (krak grenades mean they can take down up to AV12 in cc), superior upgrades, and a slew of USRs in their disposal.


The only troops better than scouts these days, are bs troops-as in, the things you look at and ask "how on earth is that a troop"



Also-you seem to not include crisis suits in your list, they are troops for FSE armies. should be pretty darn high too, at least equal to plague marines. (brute force listing, they are probably #1, but they cost a fortune compared to most troops out there.)

I'd rate scouts above Tactical Marines. The only thing that gives Tacs an edge is the special weapon. Scouts are cheaper, able to specialize better, and get a better DT in the Land Speeder Storm.

Plus scouts get a ton of USRs that let them deploy in variety of ways.

It is also worth noting that the current game doesn't favor infantry at all. It is very easy to generate a lot of firepower to take out pretty much anything. In most cases, you want cheaper mid-tiered infantry and specialist types with a lot of killing power.

The advantages tactical squads bring is their enhanced save and special weapon. If you are looking for a special weapon it is much better to grab devs or sternguard who can max the slots and create a deadly unit. The enhanced save means very little in today's game. The durability of space marines is hardly a benefit so you are kind of paying money for nothing.

Overall not a bad list but still think CSM and CSM Chosen are to high on the list lol.

Would rather do a chaos havoc squad with special weapons over an overpriced chosen squad.

Also Kalabite warriors for point cost are probably better than CSM. Esp since they all come base with BS4 and a poison weapon plus can get splinter racks on the transport they deep strike in on.

Wyches ya...at the bottom one of the period worst units in the game. Have some but not even worth putting on the table ever over other choices, its a CC unit that 90% of other even non-CC units in the game would mop the floor with in CC. Dumbest unit in the game period IMO.

Scouts can't go in Drop Pods.

That's basically all you need to prove that Tacs are better than Scouts.

the above isn't true. You can buy scouts pods if your willing to burn FA spots. Idk why you would giving that they get a skimmer transport as a DT but if you wanted to pod scouts you can do so.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scouts can't go in Drop Pods.

That's basically all you need to prove that Tacs are better than Scouts.

You're assuming dropping tacs is a worthwhile exercise.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scouts can't go in Drop Pods.

That's basically all you need to prove that Tacs are better than Scouts.

Drop pods are good. LSS is amazing.

The favoured disciples are amazing. At 7.08 ppm you get a WS4 S4 I4 3-4 attacks with rending AP5, grenades, infiltrate and stealth. Oh and fearless that can assault T1 from infiltrate.

However we are forgetting about the best troop choice in the game.

The mucolid spore.

Personaly I still feel Tacs are better than Scouts generally, but when you consider the GSF, its not even a question anymore. And really, if you're not building a Bike CAD list, why would you not go the GSF route?

Because that's not the tactical been good, that's the Gladius. The tactical are the entry price.

In a world of CADs, scouts are far superior to tactical.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Because that's not the tactical been good, that's the Gladius. The tactical are the entry price.

That doesn't matter one lick in practice. Fact remains, Gladius Tacticals are still better than Scouts.

 BoomWolf wrote:
In a world of CADs, scouts are far superior to tactical.

I disagree completely, but to each his own.

 reaverX wrote:
The favoured disciples are amazing. At 7.08 ppm you get a WS4 S4 I4 3-4 attacks with rending AP5, grenades, infiltrate and stealth. Oh and fearless that can assault T1 from infiltrate.

However we are forgetting about the best troop choice in the game.

The mucolid spore.

It is a great Troop and #1 on Nids list, its a Non scoring unit tho, it cant claim Object or Line Breaker.

But its the Cheapest Multi Wounded Troop with Skyfire, Fearless, and Shrouded with +1 S for each Mucolid spore added to the Unit.

Wow, those sound crazy. Not crazy OP, just "wtf is going on" crazy.

I really have a hard time seeing Scouts as outright better than Tacs. The BS change really helped them. They are good. Massed BS4 Boltguns aren't bad. But they aren't Tacs.

Tacs survive 50% more non-APing firepower. And my opponents are always shocked when I remove my 4+ models without save, because they always forget the AP4 on so many weapons.

Tacs can be kitted for anything but MC hunting, and can do a little there too (decently, with Grav).

Tacs can take a charge better than almost any other Troop, even better than some CC units.

Tacs can be podded anywhere. If my opponent puts something medium on an objective, the Tacs will trade fire with them for a turn, then charge the next if necessary. For most Troops, that's enough for similar-ish amounts. If I need to put something in rear armor, or threaten a long range unit, a pod of Tacs can do that. They are likely to die the next turn, but placed right, the opponent has to use resources he needs to use elsewhere (either long range, or diverting a CC unit looking to take one of my points).

If I want to put a Captain or CM on foot (I usually do), Tacs are good at being "his squad". Something more expensive might do more, but they will cost a lot more too. Same goes for Libbies. A decent Tac squad with an IC can break lines and/or eat a lot of firepower. Scouts don't really do that.

Scouts have other uses. They can get where they want to go faster on foot, can take a LSS, pay less per Boltgun, etc.

I think its close. I'm surprised people put Scouts above Tacs. But I'll move them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Scouts can't go in Drop Pods.

That's basically all you need to prove that Tacs are better than Scouts.

Drop pods are good. LSS is amazing.

This.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
And really, if you're not building a Bike CAD list, why would you not go the GSF route?

There is a big investment to go GSF in real world dollars. That might be a big reason.

Bharring wrote:
Wow, those sound crazy. Not crazy OP, just "wtf is going on" crazy.

I really have a hard time seeing Scouts as outright better than Tacs. The BS change really helped them. They are good. Massed BS4 Boltguns aren't bad. But they aren't Tacs.

Tacs survive 50% more non-APing firepower. And my opponents are always shocked when I remove my 4+ models without save, because they always forget the AP4 on so many weapons.

Tacs can be kitted for anything but MC hunting, and can do a little there too (decently, with Grav).

Tacs can take a charge better than almost any other Troop, even better than some CC units.

Tacs can be podded anywhere. If my opponent puts something medium on an objective, the Tacs will trade fire with them for a turn, then charge the next if necessary. For most Troops, that's enough for similar-ish amounts. If I need to put something in rear armor, or threaten a long range unit, a pod of Tacs can do that. They are likely to die the next turn, but placed right, the opponent has to use resources he needs to use elsewhere (either long range, or diverting a CC unit looking to take one of my points).

If I want to put a Captain or CM on foot (I usually do), Tacs are good at being "his squad". Something more expensive might do more, but they will cost a lot more too. Same goes for Libbies. A decent Tac squad with an IC can break lines and/or eat a lot of firepower. Scouts don't really do that.

Scouts have other uses. They can get where they want to go faster on foot, can take a LSS, pay less per Boltgun, etc.

I think its close. I'm surprised people put Scouts above Tacs. But I'll move them.

In practice thats not how things typically go.

Troops ability to remain on the table is a factor to do with wounds more than anything else. Because wounds are about the only stat that can't be completely ignored with shooting at something. Paying more points for a body that is removed just as easily as a cheaper one makes aprox 0 sense. Scouts are a solid 3 points cheaper than a tac marine. For this the only "meaningful thing" they lose is a 3+ save and they gain a host of abilities and options. The only options the scouts lose are options you weren't going to take anyways because they cost too much.

You must play in a meta where every squad in the enemy army isn't putting out torrents of fire or has 3+plasma or melta per squad. With 4+ cover all over the place. That is all I face. Even gladius get wrecked in my meta. Whats gladius gonna do against 9 canoptec wraiths? Or a wolf star with invis and endurance? It's gonna get wrecked is what it's going to do. At least a scout squad in LSS can do something here when it's outmatched...maybe blind the wolf star - maybe keep it's distance and kite the wraiths. If it fails at it's job - who cares? it's 95 points and your aren't relying on it to do anything but be a nuisance.

Bharring wrote:
Wow, those sound crazy. Not crazy OP, just "wtf is going on" crazy.

I really have a hard time seeing Scouts as outright better than Tacs. The BS change really helped them. They are good. Massed BS4 Boltguns aren't bad. But they aren't Tacs.

Tacs survive 50% more non-APing firepower. And my opponents are always shocked when I remove my 4+ models without save, because they always forget the AP4 on so many weapons.

Tacs can be kitted for anything but MC hunting, and can do a little there too (decently, with Grav).

Tacs can take a charge better than almost any other Troop, even better than some CC units.

Tacs can be podded anywhere. If my opponent puts something medium on an objective, the Tacs will trade fire with them for a turn, then charge the next if necessary. For most Troops, that's enough for similar-ish amounts. If I need to put something in rear armor, or threaten a long range unit, a pod of Tacs can do that. They are likely to die the next turn, but placed right, the opponent has to use resources he needs to use elsewhere (either long range, or diverting a CC unit looking to take one of my points).

If I want to put a Captain or CM on foot (I usually do), Tacs are good at being "his squad". Something more expensive might do more, but they will cost a lot more too. Same goes for Libbies. A decent Tac squad with an IC can break lines and/or eat a lot of firepower. Scouts don't really do that.

Scouts have other uses. They can get where they want to go faster on foot, can take a LSS, pay less per Boltgun, etc.

I think its close. I'm surprised people put Scouts above Tacs. But I'll move them.

Lots of marine players' experiences are contradicting yours. By the time you kit tacs to do something, the cheaper scouts are just so much more efficient. I'm even using BA scouts more and more because I just want the bodies. Kitting tacs to do a job is a pretty big gamble in a way. You are putting middling firepower on a unit that greatly increases the ppm. I'd say kitting tacs is an overall negative in the way my games unfold. Giving them a drop pod is only good for one objective, maybe. The fact that you plan to assault anything with tacs speaks volumes as to the meta you operate in.

When that Tau IA lands, would you rather lose scouts or kitted tacs? That's the real question here. Because neither squad can really hurt the Eldar.

Put your models in cover and then the AP 4 becomes crap. Which is why so many Imperium players hate it.

Bharring wrote:
Wow, those sound crazy. Not crazy OP, just "wtf is going on" crazy.

I really have a hard time seeing Scouts as outright better than Tacs. The BS change really helped them. They are good. Massed BS4 Boltguns aren't bad. But they aren't Tacs.

Tacs survive 50% more non-APing firepower. And my opponents are always shocked when I remove my 4+ models without save, because they always forget the AP4 on so many weapons.

Tacs can be kitted for anything but MC hunting, and can do a little there too (decently, with Grav).

Tacs can take a charge better than almost any other Troop, even better than some CC units.

Tacs can be podded anywhere. If my opponent puts something medium on an objective, the Tacs will trade fire with them for a turn, then charge the next if necessary. For most Troops, that's enough for similar-ish amounts. If I need to put something in rear armor, or threaten a long range unit, a pod of Tacs can do that. They are likely to die the next turn, but placed right, the opponent has to use resources he needs to use elsewhere (either long range, or diverting a CC unit looking to take one of my points).

If I want to put a Captain or CM on foot (I usually do), Tacs are good at being "his squad". Something more expensive might do more, but they will cost a lot more too. Same goes for Libbies. A decent Tac squad with an IC can break lines and/or eat a lot of firepower. Scouts don't really do that.

Scouts have other uses. They can get where they want to go faster on foot, can take a LSS, pay less per Boltgun, etc.

I think its close. I'm surprised people put Scouts above Tacs. But I'll move them.

In Practice none of the above happens often unless I'm bothering with a double battle company and effectively paying three points for the Tactical Marine. First if I want to put scouts in pods I can since I can buy them via fast attack slots/ Flesh Tearer detachment. Second grav on a non relentless platform is not very efficiant and even in rhino Tactical Marines are slower than scouts who get a skimmer and the ability to ignore terrain when moving.

to your point about eating fire power, that is probably meta specific. These days I find it rare that an opponent can't erase an MEQ squad with little trouble. Also why would I ever bother with a captain or chaplain on foot outside a GSF. He's either on a bike or on the shelf. As for the Lib, I'd rather put him with a Sternguard unit who actually have some fire power.

"Why would I bother..." would put a lot of the list on the shelf.

I did move Scouts above Tacs.

Most troop models do belong on the shelf. Because they are bad. Tacs included.

It doesn't take elite list building skills for the elite codices to make non-Gladius tacs completely meaningless. DA be like, "Tac who?" as they run them over with mass plasma bikers. And that's the crappy elite codex.

Pre-GSF, what did most Marine lists that did well use?

Obviously, the ObSec spam and UM Marneus lists both used a lot of Tacs instead of Scouts.

What do GravCent Super Best Friends use?

There was one Scout spam list that was SoT and BA, who kicked a lot of ass with those scouts. But that's the only Scout-heavy list I remember.

Martel732 wrote:
Most troop models do belong on the shelf. Because they are bad. Tacs included.

It doesn't take elite list building skills for the elite codices to make non-Gladius tacs completely meaningless. DA be like, "Tac who?" as they run them over with mass plasma bikers. And that's the crappy elite codex.

What's that? My troops are not the most elite choice in my codex? Oh wait, that's right. Because they're troops.

It's GW's fault for allowing Unbound, or for allowing things like bikes to become troops all of a sudden. This game should require you to take your basic infantry. It just makes sense.

Troops can be a lot of fun. Even if you can't win tournies with them, they are more fun on the table than on the shelf.

As I've said, I've seen both Wyches and Genestealers do well.

Bharring wrote:
"Why would I bother..." would put a lot of the list on the shelf.

I did move Scouts above Tacs.

I agree that troops are fun and I often bring units that aren't considered great because I like the minis or the because it fits the background. That said when talking about what is and is not good the only thing that is relevant is how it performs in a competitive environment.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Most troop models do belong on the shelf. Because they are bad. Tacs included.

It doesn't take elite list building skills for the elite codices to make non-Gladius tacs completely meaningless. DA be like, "Tac who?" as they run them over with mass plasma bikers. And that's the crappy elite codex.

What's that? My troops are not the most elite choice in my codex? Oh wait, that's right. Because they're troops.

It's GW's fault for allowing Unbound, or for allowing things like bikes to become troops all of a sudden. This game should require you to take your basic infantry. It just makes sense.

But Ravenguard Ravenwing and White scars had a reason for biker troops...

Bharring wrote:
I really have a hard time seeing Scouts as outright better than Tacs. The BS change really helped them. They are good. Massed BS4 Boltguns aren't bad. But they aren't Tacs.

(snip)

I think its close. I'm surprised people put Scouts above Tacs. But I'll move them.

I don't know. I play in a pretty competitive meta and I'm drawing completely different conclusions from these guys. A 3+ does matter most of the time - a lot of the top shelf stuff allows you to take your save (most of the units in a Decurion, most units in an Eldar scatbike list, a good chunk (though obviously not all) of the firepower in a Tau list).

Its true that the good upgrades are costly, but its worth it. 5 Tacs with a Gravcannon may cost almost as much as 10 Scouts, but they are actually able to threathen stuff, whereas the Scouts are doing sweet f-all besides sitting on an objective.

The Storm is a pretty good vehicle for its points, but ultimately, it's still a 10/10/10 2 HP vehicle that will die to a stiff breeze. A pod doesn't pack anywhere near the firepower for the same amount of points, but it does allows for null deployment lists (when its appropriate to use them) and is annoying for opponents because it often lands on objectives and has to be removed due to its ObSec-ness.

Troupe placed that low still? common guys didnt you read what they do? they're great!

Will you be doing other FOC switches? Because Orks can take Warbikers and Deff Dreads as troops in some situations.

Deff Dreads are Meh Dreads, but Warbikers are good for what you get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also put Rippers (unless I can't find them) somewhere between Upper and Middle. DS Fearless Objective Secured units onto objectives is great, but IB means that 50% of the time, they run towards the nearest foe and off the Objective.