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Hey guys im just wondering fluff wise is it possible for a chapter whos gone renegade to turn loyal again

Mantis warriors, executioners and a couple others did it.

Cheers

Renegade is a rather loose term, which can apply to chapters that have both generally decided to give the Imperium the middle finger and those who have simply made a small error and somehow gotten on the wrong side of the Imperium.

Well in my chapters case while they worship the emporer as a god they have gave the imperium the middle finger

That doesn't make them renegades, almost no Space Marine chapter is agreeable with the Imperium.

The Dark Angels and Space Wolves are openly hostile towards their leadership, yet they are considered loyal.

Renegades might have a chance to be welcomed back into the fold. After the required penitent crusade, of course.



If a band of renegades turn to Chaos, or willfully becomes allied to it at any time, there is no chance in hell they'll be accepted back.

I think this questions is highly dependent on the definition of 'Renegade'. The way I see it (and a nod at those who have already mentioned it):

Space Wolves/Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex (Accepted Astartes doctrine), are secretive (Hence suspicious) or have questionable mutation. Their actions/modus operandi may look questionable, but their motives are 'pure'.

Lamentors/Mantis Warriors/Vorpal Swords - This type of Chapter have committed serious infractions in the eyes of the Imperium, but at heart, their actions were bourne out of doing what they percieved was the right thing to do (i.e Not toeing the party line). These types of 'Renegades' may have gone against the Imperium, but ultimately they are likely to be accepted back into the fold in time, having learnt their lesson by undergoing a penitent Crusade.

Soul Drinkers/Relictors/Knights of Blood/Flame Falcons/The Fallen - These types of Chapters are those which are either mutated beyond acceptable levels or have committed such an infraction in the eyes of the Imperium that they have almost no chance of redemption. Only through the near destruction of their Chapter, via an act of pure loyalty to the Imperium would they ever be granted absolution, and even then it is likely to be posthumous. Instead, they are true outcasts, despised by the Imperium they still profess loyalty to and refusing to succumb to the temptation of serving Chaos they wander the stars fighting in the name of the Imperium, but prevented from ever returning to them.

Astral Claws/Blood Gorgons/Iron Drakes - These are the true Renegades. These are Chapters who have been disowned by the Imperium and have therefore either carved out their own realm or have thrown in their lot with Chaos. These Chapters have thrown off their trappings of the Imperium or have become so corrupted by Chaos that there is only one activity the Imperium will now engage in with them - execution.

So I'll answer the OP with a question - where do you think the Chapter you have in mind would fit in?

There is some precedent as long as there is no contact with chaos. If your chapter merely got into a pissing contest with another IOM org that lead to fighting, they may be able to be welcome back if they stand down at some point and agree to sanctions.

If you fall to chaos, there is no welcoming back.

Soul Drinkers/Relictors/Knights of Blood/Flame Falcons/The Fallen

These are the true loyalists ; )

Soul Drinkers redeemed themselves - they are honored deep within the Imperial Fists fortress

Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both Codex Chapters.

There's nothing in the Codex that says you can't wear bathrobes and have your second company all ride bikes and land speeders and only use Terminator Armor for your 1st company. Similarly, the Death Company is not a violation of the Codex. It's simply an adaptation the Blood Angels have had to make because of the flaw in their geneseed.

Codex Adherent just means they keep their chapter structure in a 10x100 (or similar) format, and follow the guidelines on recruiting, training, marking, ranks, etc. If you look at the Dark Angels, they still have captains, and company markings, and battle companies, and reserve companies, etc. People tend to misunderstand what being a Codex Chapter actually means, and think it's some kind of "bad" thing, or that it has to do with how a Chapter fights. Really, the only truly Codex-aberrant chapters we have examples of are the Templars and Wolves, who literally do things their own way in how they recruit, and train, and organize.

The funny thing is that the Deathwing is actually a limitation for the Dark Angels, not a benefit. Sure, it sounds cool. But what happens when the 2nd Company shows up on a planet with terrain that isn't conducive to speeders and bikes, or have to fight in an urban setting, or board a ship? Why would a Space Marine Chapter, with limited manpower as it is, ever shoehorn roughly 10% of their combat strength into a single role? It's one of those things that sounds cooler in the fluff if you don't think about it, heh. Like the Black Templars training their noobs alongside regular Battle Brothers. Space Marines are heavily armored targets that will draw heavy firepower, which means their Neophytes are taking the same weapons fire as the other Marines, but they have lighter armor. Poor guys. No wonder the Black Templars recruit so much. They treat their noobs like Doritos. Crunch all you want, we'll make more.

But yeah, Renegades can come back assuming their transgressions are minor. The Badab War is a good example of how valuable a Space Marine Chapter is. It costs a lot of time and resources to create one, when you think of all their ships and equipment, and then training up 1,000 supersoldiers from scratch.

But once they are tainted by Chaos, it's pretty much done. The best you cnna hope for is a suicide mission, but more likely a task force of other chapters and Exterminatus, and if it is really bad, a visit from the Grey Knights.

Space Wolves better HOPE that redemption is possible.

P.S., somewhere in the Eye of Terror, the Thousand Sons are looking at Fenris and screaming "NOT SO FUNNY NOW, IS IT, TEAM JACOB?!?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both Codex Chapters.

There's nothing in the Codex that says you can't wear bathrobes and have your second company all ride bikes and land speeders and only use Terminator Armor for your 1st company. Similarly, the Death Company is not a violation of the Codex.

Well, there's also the fact the Dark Angel legion split up in name only to honor Guilliman's request. The legion is still operational, just not on paper. There's a reason Azrael's title is Supreme Grand Master and the other chapter masters from their successor chapters are Grand Masters.

In a bit of trivia I find funny, some nameless Dark Angel was smarter than Rogal Dorn in realizing Gulliman just wanted the appearance of breaking up the legions. After all, the Ultramarines barely broke up, and the Dark Angels followed suit. Dorn was so against it that he was nearly declared a traitor because he's dumb and stubborn.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both Codex Chapters.

There's nothing in the Codex that says you can't wear bathrobes and have your second company all ride bikes and land speeders and only use Terminator Armor for your 1st company. Similarly, the Death Company is not a violation of the Codex. It's simply an adaptation the Blood Angels have had to make because of the flaw in their geneseed.

Codex Adherent just means they keep their chapter structure in a 10x100 (or similar) format, and follow the guidelines on recruiting, training, marking, ranks, etc. If you look at the Dark Angels, they still have captains, and company markings, and battle companies, and reserve companies, etc. People tend to misunderstand what being a Codex Chapter actually means, and think it's some kind of "bad" thing, or that it has to do with how a Chapter fights. Really, the only truly Codex-aberrant chapters we have examples of are the Templars and Wolves, who literally do things their own way in how they recruit, and train, and organize.

The funny thing is that the Deathwing is actually a limitation for the Dark Angels, not a benefit. Sure, it sounds cool. But what happens when the 2nd Company shows up on a planet with terrain that isn't conducive to speeders and bikes, or have to fight in an urban setting, or board a ship? Why would a Space Marine Chapter, with limited manpower as it is, ever shoehorn roughly 10% of their combat strength into a single role? It's one of those things that sounds cooler in the fluff if you don't think about it, heh. Like the Black Templars training their noobs alongside regular Battle Brothers. Space Marines are heavily armored targets that will draw heavy firepower, which means their Neophytes are taking the same weapons fire as the other Marines, but they have lighter armor. Poor guys. No wonder the Black Templars recruit so much. They treat their noobs like Doritos. Crunch all you want, we'll make more.

But yeah, Renegades can come back assuming their transgressions are minor. The Badab War is a good example of how valuable a Space Marine Chapter is. It costs a lot of time and resources to create one, when you think of all their ships and equipment, and then training up 1,000 supersoldiers from scratch.

But once they are tainted by Chaos, it's pretty much done. The best you cnna hope for is a suicide mission, but more likely a task force of other chapters and Exterminatus, and if it is really bad, a visit from the Grey Knights.

Dark Angels kinda lose the codex chapter tag when you consider that the Legion never really broke up.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both Codex Chapters.

There's nothing in the Codex that says you can't wear bathrobes and have your second company all ride bikes and land speeders and only use Terminator Armor for your 1st company. Similarly, the Death Company is not a violation of the Codex. It's simply an adaptation the Blood Angels have had to make because of the flaw in their geneseed.

Codex Adherent just means they keep their chapter structure in a 10x100 (or similar) format, and follow the guidelines on recruiting, training, marking, ranks, etc. If you look at the Dark Angels, they still have captains, and company markings, and battle companies, and reserve companies, etc. People tend to misunderstand what being a Codex Chapter actually means, and think it's some kind of "bad" thing, or that it has to do with how a Chapter fights. Really, the only truly Codex-aberrant chapters we have examples of are the Templars and Wolves, who literally do things their own way in how they recruit, and train, and organize.

The funny thing is that the Deathwing is actually a limitation for the Dark Angels, not a benefit. Sure, it sounds cool. But what happens when the 2nd Company shows up on a planet with terrain that isn't conducive to speeders and bikes, or have to fight in an urban setting, or board a ship? Why would a Space Marine Chapter, with limited manpower as it is, ever shoehorn roughly 10% of their combat strength into a single role? It's one of those things that sounds cooler in the fluff if you don't think about it, heh. Like the Black Templars training their noobs alongside regular Battle Brothers. Space Marines are heavily armored targets that will draw heavy firepower, which means their Neophytes are taking the same weapons fire as the other Marines, but they have lighter armor. Poor guys. No wonder the Black Templars recruit so much. They treat their noobs like Doritos. Crunch all you want, we'll make more.

But yeah, Renegades can come back assuming their transgressions are minor. The Badab War is a good example of how valuable a Space Marine Chapter is. It costs a lot of time and resources to create one, when you think of all their ships and equipment, and then training up 1,000 supersoldiers from scratch.

But once they are tainted by Chaos, it's pretty much done. The best you cnna hope for is a suicide mission, but more likely a task force of other chapters and Exterminatus, and if it is really bad, a visit from the Grey Knights.

Ravenwing and Deathwing aren't used in such a manner. When needed Ravenwing can simply abandon their bikes and behave like a normal veteran company (really the Dark Angels actually have two veteran companies and three line companies) toting bolters, bolt pistols, special weapons, etc- they just don't carry around heavy weapons. However, Dark Angels also don't split up like other Chapters. Ravenwing and Deathwing detachments are almost always flying beside somebody like Third or Fifth Companies. Likewise, Ravenwing and Deathwing also tend to stick together when hunting fallen with Ravenwing punting teleport homes before speeding out and Deathwing extracting the target.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both Codex Chapters.

Codex Adherent just means they keep their chapter structure in a 10x100 (or similar) format, and follow the guidelines on recruiting, training, marking, ranks, etc.

The Salamanders do not follow 10x100 setup but nobody questions if they are renegades

Each of the Salamanders' Line Companies is slightly larger than a standard Codex Company, but the Scout Company is barely half the size of most other Chapters', due to the sparse population of Nocturne and the Salamanders’ meticulous selection process.

Salamander's Wiki

Just to clarify, when I said:

Warpig1815 wrote:Space Wolves/Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex (Accepted Astartes doctrine), are secretive (Hence suspicious) or have questionable mutation. Their actions/modus operandi may look questionable, but their motives are 'pure'.

I was kind of referring to each in turn. Space Wolves are non-codex, so are 'Renegades' in the sense of they don't follow rules. Dark Angels are secretive - so are viewed with a certain suspicion and again are 'Renegades' in the sense of that they aren't as transparent and as such are watched closely. Finally Blood Angels have a certain set of mutations which are viewed as highly dubious by certain parts of the Inquisition - hence being 'Renegades' in that they are not pure, stable humans. I'm quite aware that, except for minor deviations, the Dark Angels and Blood Angels are in the main Codex compliant.

EDIT: @JustALittleOrkish - True, but there are members of the Imperium who certainly have objections to the Obsidian black skin and flaming red eyes.

JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Dark Angels/Blood Angels - This type of chapter is 'Renegade' only in the fact that they deviate from the Codex

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both Codex Chapters.

Codex Adherent just means they keep their chapter structure in a 10x100 (or similar) format, and follow the guidelines on recruiting, training, marking, ranks, etc.

The Salamanders do not follow 10x100 setup but nobody questions if they are renegades

Each of the Salamanders' Line Companies is slightly larger than a standard Codex Company, but the Scout Company is barely half the size of most other Chapters', due to the sparse population of Nocturne and the Salamanders’ meticulous selection process.

Salamander's Wiki

Exactly why I said "or similar".

To be truly Codex deviant, a Chapter really needs to totally abandon the format. Having 120 guys in a company isn't really a significant deviation, nor is having a smaller Scout Company. Compared to the Space Wolves, for example, who just have random packs, and differentiate their Marines based on age (for some inexplicable reason, lol). Or the Templars who don't have companies at all.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Dark Angels kinda lose the codex chapter tag when you consider that the Legion never really broke up.

They're still organized almost entirely by Codex guidelines, so not really.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's a reason Azrael's title is Supreme Grand Master and the other chapter masters from their successor chapters are Grand Masters.

False.

It has been stated that Azrael has authority over the Grand Masters of other chapters, from whence many a Dark Angel player has concluded the Successor's Chapter Masters must be Grand Masters, except that it has also been stated that Successor Chapters do in fact have Supreme Grand Masters of their own.

 EnTyme wrote:
Space Wolves better HOPE that redemption is possible.

P.S., somewhere in the Eye of Terror, the Thousand Sons are looking at Fenris and screaming "NOT SO FUNNY NOW, IS IT, TEAM JACOB?!?

And to that Logan Grimnar just replies with the deployment of that most ancient and terrible of weapons the Space Wolves guard. The mighty Shop Vac!

It depends on what kinda renegades

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Blood Angels and Dark Angels are both Codex Chapters.

There's nothing in the Codex that says you can't wear bathrobes and have your second company all ride bikes and land speeders and only use Terminator Armor for your 1st company. Similarly, the Death Company is not a violation of the Codex. It's simply an adaptation the Blood Angels have had to make because of the flaw in their geneseed.
.

They 'mostly' follow the codex, but both have significant hierarchical deviations from the norm, and in the case of the blood Angels in particular, various organisational entities that have no equivelant in the 'standard' codex formation. The death company, sanguinary priests, sanguinary guard and so on are not codex standard. Similarly, for the dark Angels, it's more about them wearing dresses the 'inner circle', the various 'interrogator chaplains', along with a completely different layout to their companies than in a standard 'codex' chapter format puts paid to the idea that they are a 'codex' chapter. Don't get me wrong - in many ways, they do adhere. But not completely.

This is not necessarily an issue however, but strictly speaking, they don't follow the codex one hundred percent, hence they are not codex chapters. Remember as well, those tiny deviations (heck, even the concept of using camouflage) are enough for some chapters to talk about heresy. I remember older fluff (back in second ed) of two space marines chapters (striking scorpions was one, Iirc, but I read this a long time ago) that went to war after one borrowed some equipment from the other, spray painted it for a camo operation and returned It with a panel that they'd forgotten to wipe clean afterwards. The offended chapter retaliated by nuking the others entire armoury. Quite crazy and enjoyable really.

Generally, so long as a chapter wins battles for the imperium, and slays the enemies of the emperor, most imperial organisations won't interfere too much, and will overlook such trivial differences. Or won't care.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Codex Adherent just means they keep their chapter structure in a 10x100 (or similar) format, and follow the guidelines on recruiting, training, marking, ranks, etc. If you look at the Dark Angels, they still have captains, and company markings, and battle companies, and reserve companies, etc. People tend to misunderstand what being a Codex Chapter actually means, and think it's some kind of "bad" thing, or that it has to do with how a Chapter fights. Really, the only truly Codex-aberrant chapters we have examples of are the Templars and Wolves, who literally do things their own way in how they recruit, and train, and organize.

And when they deviate from any of those things they are no longer strictly codex, or codex compliant. The codex is very presise. Depending on who you ask as well, they are less 'guidelines' and more 'holy tomes thst cannot be deviated from'. Even things as mundane as shoulder badges and rank marks. Many chapters do deviate. Many chapters deviate in slight ways because of local circumstances, but they are deviations nonetheless. As you say, deviating from the codex isn't necessarily a 'bad' thing, although there will be some amongst the astartes who would dearly love to throttle anyone who so much as looks at the codex in a funny manner, but it is still deviating from the codex.

Deadnight wrote:
This is not necessarily an issue however, but strictly speaking, they don't follow the codex one hundred percent, hence they are not codex chapters.

Except that they are Codex Chapters, though. They have minor organisational deviancies, sure, meaning they don't follow the Codex absolutely 100% to-the-letter. But that doesn't stop them from being codex-adherent.

Deadnight wrote:

They 'mostly' follow the codex, but both have significant hierarchical deviations from the norm, and in the case of the blood Angels in particular, various organisational entities that have no equivelant in the 'standard' codex formation. The death company, sanguinary priests, sanguinary guard and so on are not codex standard. Similarly, for the dark Angels, it's more about them wearing dresses the 'inner circle', the various 'interrogator chaplains', along with a completely different layout to their companies than in a standard 'codex' chapter format puts paid to the idea that they are a 'codex' chapter. Don't get me wrong - in many ways, they do adhere. But not completely.

Except that Sanguinary Priests are just Blood Angel apothecaries, Sanguinary Guard fill the same organisational slot as Honour Guard, etc. It's only the Death Company that don't fit.

I remember reading about one chapter who were corrupted by chaos but still thought themselves loyal to the emperor, half of them eventually turned to chaos and the other half stayed (they soon died fighting chaos), they were redeemed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I remember reading about one chapter who were corrupted by chaos but still thought themselves loyal to the emperor, half of them eventually turned to chaos and the other half stayed (they soon died fighting chaos), they were redeemed

 the clone wrote:
I remember reading about one chapter who were corrupted by chaos but still thought themselves loyal to the emperor, half of them eventually turned to chaos and the other half stayed (they soon died fighting chaos), they were redeemed


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I remember reading about one chapter who were corrupted by chaos but still thought themselves loyal to the emperor, half of them eventually turned to chaos and the other half stayed (they soon died fighting chaos), they were redeemed

When Prospero was destroyed and Magnus the Red made a deal with Tzeentch, The Thousands Sons on the planet were transported to the warp, but the Sons in the fleet supposedly stayed and formed a new chapter loyal to the Emperor (possibly the Blood Ravens)