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Naturally, CSM suck absent allies, so I'm looking to ally them with either Codex: Daemons or Khorne Daemonkin. I'm aware of the main differences between codices such as the mono-god nature of KDK, the removal of Daemonic Instability, and the inclusion of the Blood Tithe system. However, I like the idea of using the Daemons codex as, should I want to, I have access to a wider variety of daemonic units.

I've heard good things about allying CSM with KDK as the limitations for putting ICs from one codex with a squad from another (which are still applicable for Codex: Daemons) are not applicable.

I'm largely curious as to how large an impact these differences make in competitive matches. Should I pick Daemons or KDK?

N.B I'm not so interesting in allying with Orcs, Necrons, or Dark Eldar (for fluff reasons) though I'm interested to hear why you'd recommend them over Codex: Daemons and Khorne Daemonkin if you would.

Considered LatD?

I play Chaos Space marines and am also relatively new to the game (at least this edition) and I am also now going down the route of allies to shore up the many deficiencies in our codex.
I haven't yet picked my troops but I believe picking the best units from Codex Daemons would be better than sticking to Khorne.
I am also looking at Imperial guard as allies, this would fit fluff wise, traitor guards etc.

@ChazSexington I haven't seen a current edition of this. Is there one? From what I've seen previously it doesn't really appeal. It's not different enough for me.

@Huron black heart I like the traitor guard idea and it does fit fluff-wise, but I find that when I take something like guards or SM as traitors the locals lose their minds.

'SM are SM, IG are IG, and CSM don't get to ally with them because CSM should stay sucky so everyone can beat them' is the name of the game. This is why I'm looking for an army to ally with that can be either battle-brothers or allies of convenience in the rules and therefore cannot be whined about.

Could you not use Renegades from IA13 ?

To the best of my knowledge there's no FW used locally. I don't think it much of a stretch to assume that I would get grief over using any vehicle/unit from IA13, be it CSM or R&H.

Am I to take it from the suggestions of allies other than Daemons and KDK that neither are good allies?

I'm in the same boat as you.

I think if you want to go KDK, then you probably want to take that as your primary faction and then just a small allied force of whatever you want from CSMs, so that you maximise your blood tithe earnings. I'd love to be able to, for instance, run my Juggerlord with an attached unit of flesh hounds - but then for some reason the KDK codex has no Axe Of Blind Fury...

Otherwise I'm sure daemons are good, certainly better than CSMs at any rate...

I would say deamons are the more competitive choice...and if you decided KDK you are basically playing CSM with some new rules and access to only one faction of deamons. Deamons gives you access to all the deamons and you can still CAD or Ally in your CSM if needed.

One of my main opponents plays all 3... and I have the most trouble with the deamons. KDK are nice for Khorne actually summoning, and for armywide FnP which can really make a difference, but Deamons have so many tricks and so many more options its hard to prepare for.

@Crispy78 I know what you mean about the juggerlord and the Axe of Blind Fury. I was thinking of that too Also bothers me that bloodcrushers took such a nerf as if I allied with KDK that's what I would have wanted a juggerlord to be accompanied by.
@Tenzilla Thanks. It's good to know that you have experience battling the chaos triumvirate. If you reckon that Daemons are the most tricksy of the lot then I think that's where I'm leaning.

Whilst I occasionally enjoy playing assault heavy armies, I'm really not sure about buying into KDK and being stuck with Khorne. At some point I'm going to want to try out Pink Horrors and Blue Scribes.

Grey knights, Just make sure you paint them bloody and to base with sisters of battle remains

Best allies are probably daemons or IA13. It's a shame that your group dislikes forgeworld, but they are basically battle brother guardsmens, and you can play them like poor man's guard.

 R4PTUR3 wrote:
@Crispy78 I know what you mean about the juggerlord and the Axe of Blind Fury. I was thinking of that too Also bothers me that bloodcrushers took such a nerf as if I allied with KDK that's what I would have wanted a juggerlord to be accompanied by.
@Tenzilla Thanks. It's good to know that you have experience battling the chaos triumvirate. If you reckon that Daemons are the most tricksy of the lot then I think that's where I'm leaning.

Whilst I occasionally enjoy playing assault heavy armies, I'm really not sure about buying into KDK and being stuck with Khorne. At some point I'm going to want to try out Pink Horrors and Blue Scribes.

When it comes to Daemons, Tzeentch is the top dog due to his massive psychic shenanigans potential, super beatstick Lord of Change, the sheer brokenness of a re-rolled 2++ save, 'Clown Car' levels of Summoning, etc... Plus all the new relics & spells from the CotW supplement, such as the Paradox (allows of an automatic successful casting per turn!), and the new Str.D Psychic power.
Tzeentch's new formation are a total mixed bag however... The 'Core' formation looks to have some serious competitive potential when kept extremely MSU. A handful (2-3) squad of 11 Horrors, backed up by Exalted Flamers effectively acting as lone gun turrets, and min sized Flamers - and everything gets +1S to any Warpflame based attack! (which is like, you know, just about every freaking attack they make!) Give the formation's Herald the Exalted Locus, and now he and his unit are throwing out S7!! Flickering Fire + adding +2S to any other Tzeentchian powers!
The auxiliary formation however is complete crap, unless you really want to bring 9 Burning Chariots!

Slaanesh comes in a solid second, as mass army-wide Rending will feth up almost anything in the game. Plus Slaanesh is freaking fast! Like, your infantry can nearly charge down enemy Skimmers fast!
Not as good at the psychic phase as Tzeentch obviously, but access to mass Telepathy (Psy Shriek + Invis brokenness!) and some of those new Slaanesh powers can make for a nasty time for opponents.
Slaanesh also gets probably the single best Formation from the CotW rules, in its auxiliary - 1 mounted Herald + 6 choices from Seekers/Hellflayers/Chariots. It's downright mean, as you can run a decent 'Seekerstar', and then take a bunch of solo chariots for better target + threat saturation than a CAD will give you.

Nurgle has gained decently if you can access the CotW rules. His new relics are incredible, and can synergise really well with Slaaneshii Ld shenanigans. (ie: take the -1Ld relic, then have fun throwing Psy Shrieks & Phantasmagoria everywhere!)
His new spell lore also got a really nice boost, and the Tallyband formation is one of, if not the best, basic 'Core' formation.

Khorne drags up the rear, but he's not exactly weak by any means. Just that, without access to any psychic shenanigans, he's never going to play to the Daemon army's single greatest strength! Massed Flesh Hounds led by Jugger Heralds and Karanak scouted Bloodcrushers are still quite capable. Khannons have enough range to keep them out of trouble. Opponent's can never afford to ignore a freaking Str.D Bloodthirster - who can also now take a new relic that gives Adamantium Will & -1S to all attacks targeting him!
Khorne's formations are overall 'meh', as the 'tax' is too great. Likewise, his pool of new relics is probably the 'worst' of the 4 Gods, due to the limitations of the models who can take them, and needing to mix in other Gods to add psychic synergies to really make them shine.
That said, there is one relic weapon that makes any 'To-Hit' roll of a 6 suddenly count as a Str.D attack, so, it's not like Khorne's exactly hurting by any means - just extremely predictable in his game play.


Overall, Daemons are where you'll find the true power behind the Chaos faction... The only real decision to be made, is whether or not your CSM detachment is your Primary, depending on how lucky/terrified you feel about the whole Warpstorm table.

I thought the KDK formation with the bikes and the flesh hounds was meant to be pretty good...

I have played Daemons since they came out as their own codex in 5th ed. They are the best ally for CSM due to the sheer variety of units they can bring. A few pros in their corner include:

--The cheapest troop tax in the form of 1 Nurgling unit (which can infiltrate and has ob sec), or if you have psykers, go with Pink Horrors to boost WC and have a good summoning battery.
--In an ally detachment, you don't have to roll the Warp storm. I personally love the Warp storm, but most players consider it a drawback.
--Amazing beatstick HQ's. All the good HQ's that you can get in KDK, you get in codex: Daemons, except with way better options, like a D-thirster with Armour of Scorn and 2x Greater Rewards. KDK may have a Fearless D-thirster, but can't take the options above, which may result in a Thirster with 4+FNP, re-roll Invuls and effective +1T.

KDK are good and have some good formations, but due to the way the Blood tithe works, they are much better off as a Primary force. 3-4 units as a ally won't get you enough Blood tithe points to mean anything. The GorePack is, however, quite good on its own. For the mere tax of 2 Bike units, you can get 2-4 units of Fearless Flesh Hounds.

--

@Experiment 626 This is great. Thanks for the detailed response. That all sounds tastey hehe.

@Galef I appreciate the pro/con feedback. The cheap troop tax should make a nice change from CSM, and I didn't know about the nullification of Warp Storm when taken as allies. As I haven't played with Daemons I'm not sure yet if that's a boon, but it's still good to know.

I'm going to go for Daemons.

Be'lakor can still be used in an CSM army right ?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Be'lakor can still be used in an CSM army right ?

I would say only if his Dataslate is still available. His rules printed in the CotW do not say he can be taken as an HQ for CSM. IF those rules are meant to replace the old Dataslate, then No Belakor for CSM (unless you also field a 45pt Nurgling tax).

Edit: I just checked, the Dataslate is still available to order on GW website (and it's even in the CSM section too). So I would say YES, for now Belakor is available as an HQ to CSM, but you must bring the Dataslate, not the CotW rules

 Galef wrote:
Edit: I just checked, the Dataslate is still available to order on GW website (and it's even in the CSM section too). So I would say YES, for now Belakor is available as an HQ to CSM, but you must bring the Dataslate, not the CotW rules

Gotta love how GW makes it so easy to keep track of their rules and how they change things without even knowing they change things

 Battlesong wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Edit: I just checked, the Dataslate is still available to order on GW website (and it's even in the CSM section too). So I would say YES, for now Belakor is available as an HQ to CSM, but you must bring the Dataslate, not the CotW rules

Gotta love how GW makes it so easy to keep track of their rules and how they change things without even knowing they change things

Could be worse...
Between the three ways to get the CotW Daemon updated rules/new stuff, there's three subtly different versions of those exact same rules!

My guess is they let Tzeentch phone it in, and didn't notice the fine kept changing between scans vs. printing...

 R4PTUR3 wrote:
@ChazSexington I haven't seen a current edition of this. Is there one? From what I've seen previously it doesn't really appeal. It's not different enough for me.

They're rather good, doing well in tournaments. How is it not different? It's closer to IG than CSM.

Lost and The Damnned is the traitor book if you play casually.

Siege of Vraks book is the book you will want for competitive play.

Lost and the dammed can fill in roles that your primary CSM have holes in.

Seige of Vraks has returanable blobs that come on exactly the same with upgrades and all, once destroyed and arrive from reserve on a roll of a 2+.

 happygolucky wrote:
Lost and The Damnned is the traitor book if you play casually.

Siege of Vraks book is the book you will want for competitive play.

Lost and the dammed can fill in roles that your primary CSM have holes in.

Seige of Vraks has returanable blobs that come on exactly the same with upgrades and all, once destroyed and arrive from reserve on a roll of a 2+.

Access to limitless zombies and Ordnance Tyrant is far better than the unending host detachment imo, but yeah, the newest Siege of Vraks book is more competitive than the IA:13 Renegades. Ideally you want both books for access to the CSM vehicles in IA:13 though.

As for allies, Daemons are the most fluffy option, and provide good support. Necrons are another often overlooked ally for CSM. They're Allies of Convenience if I am not mistaken, and provide a lot of durable units that do well in both shooting and CC.

Daemons and Daemonkin are both great allies choices for CSM; I wouldn't even look anywhere else to be honest due to the battle brothers synergies that are possible. Once you start allying in these factions, and depending on how competitive your games are you will probably find over time that you switch to Daemons or Daemonkin primary and CSM allies, and then maybe dropping CSM altogether.

This is kind of the route I went down; CSM were my first army and simple enough for learning the game with, but the lure of the ruinous powers was great and I progressively increased my Daemon contingent. NB I'm glad I did this as I would certainly not consider Daemons to be a beginner army. Over time I found that to really utilise the synergies within the Daemon codex it was better to just go pure Daemons.

As I improved as a general though I found it fun to go back to CSM on occasion and play on "hard mode". After I did this I don't consider the CSM codex to be a total lost cause unless you play a top tier tournament type list, and I even surprised myself about how we they can perform

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Daemons and Daemonkin are both great allies choices for CSM; I wouldn't even look anywhere else to be honest due to the battle brothers synergies that are possible. Once you start allying in these factions, and depending on how competitive your games are you will probably find over time that you switch to Daemons or Daemonkin primary and CSM allies, and then maybe dropping CSM altogether.

This is kind of the route I went down; CSM were my first army and simple enough for learning the game with, but the lure of the ruinous powers was great and I progressively increased my Daemon contingent. NB I'm glad I did this as I would certainly not consider Daemons to be a beginner army. Over time I found that to really utilise the synergies within the Daemon codex it was better to just go pure Daemons.

As I improved as a general though I found it fun to go back to CSM on occasion and play on "hard mode". After I did this I don't consider the CSM codex to be a total lost cause unless you play a top tier tournament type list, and I even surprised myself about how we they can perform

Khornekin are terrible as allies as you simply can't get enough out of the Blood Tithe system, which is where their true strength lies...

If you ever want Khornekin, then make them the 'main' component of your army, since the more pts you sink into MSU'd Daemonkin units, the more powerful overall the whole becomes due to how the Tithe system functions.

Well this is more or less what I was saying. Once you try allying in daemonkin or daemons it quickly becomes apparent that it's better to take these factions as your primary. It all depends upon how competitive the OP wants to play though.

As for daemonkin the blood tithe isn't as critical as to make them "terrible" in this situation. Remember the primary faction here is CSM. If you're building a CSM list and have the option of taking an allied Gorepack or more CSM, the Daemonkin are far from a terrible choice.

Basically, all csm allies have something to offer. Daemons, KDK, Renegades. Even orks. Tough, CSM are better as allies for orks themselves, something like bullyboyz works nice with either spawn spam or msu deepstrike.