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Abyssal Dwarfs

Supreme Iron-caster on Great Winged Halfbreed - Ensorcelled Armor, Surge (245)
Iron-caster - Inspiring Talisman, Surge (140)

Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Abyssal Berserkers Troop (125)
Abyssal Berserkers Troop (125)

Abyssal Grotesques Horde (250)

Greater Obsidian Golem (160)

Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)

Total - 1505

This leaves me 495 points for allies - the modules for which are shown below!

Goblins

Varangur

All of them fit except the 500 point Varangur, which puts me 5 points over 2000, so I'd have to change a troop of Berserkers to Decimators. Besides the Decimators, I will also have other warmachines, characters, and Lesser Obsidian Golems available for the Abyssal Dwarfs.

I'd love to know which allies you like with them (particularly from the Goblins to start with, since the Varangur won't be done until later). I feel like with some of the goblin variants I might actually have Too much chaff and not enough substance

For the dwarfs, I have a rock hard center with the Immortal Guard (I.G.) backed up by Berserkers to counter charge. I could save a ton of points by going with Black Souls instead of the I.G., and a Slavedriver instead of the Iron-caster, but I like the idea of double-surging the large golem on the first turn, then healing the I.G. / warmachines the whole game with the foot caster. I'm just not sure if I have enough of a ranged threat to force my opponent to come to me... which I feel like with SPD 4 dwarfs is pretty important (although the allies may help with that).

For the Abyssal Grotesques, my bull centaurs are a little too big to fit on the base footprint of Abyssal Halfbreeds, and I really like the fact that the Grotesques count as a Horde, as well as having 5+ Def. So, I plan to mount them on the base size for Grotesques even though there will be 10 in the unit. I know I'll have to point this out every game, but it just opens up way more possibilities as a horde (and looks better). It also gives me the option of swapping in a horde of Lesser Obsidian Golems without changing the rest of the list too much (but making my army way slower in the process).

Thoughts appreciated!

One question I have which I alluded to above is whether or not I have enough regiments. I could turn the two Berserker Troops into a single regiment plus either a Slavedriver with Diadem of Dragonkind, or another warmachine to further incentivize the enemy coming to me

Here's also a non-allied version using all the dwarfs:


Supreme Iron-caster on Great Winged Halfbreed - Ensorcelled Armor, Surge (245)
Iron-caster - Inspiring Talisman, Surge (140)
Slavedriver - Diadem of Dragonkind (80)

Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Abyssal Decimators Regiment (160)
Abyssal Berserkers Regiment (180)

Slave Orcs Troop (65)
Slave Orc Gore-riders Troop (85)
Slave Orc Gore-riders Troop (85)

Abyssal Grotesques Horde (250)

Greater Obsidian Golem (160)

Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)

Total - 1995


Decimators regiment is expensive, but unlocks a crucial slot for a warmachine / hero, unlike running them as a troop.

Really appreciate any input, just want to make sure I'm not crazy

Ignoring how I feel about allies, I think I prefer the non-allied list you posted, as it just feels better supported, in regards to Inspiring, guns (diadem + rocket #3) and such. Slave Orcs as chaff seem like they're enough? I do however prefer 2x Berserker troops to the single regiment, while at the same time wanting the Decimator regiment to stay - Decis because they're so iconically CD (and I like breath weapons), regiment because troop size seems a waste of time with that low nerve / few shots.

What about this list with Goblin allies?

Supreme Iron-caster on Great Winged Halfbreed - Ensorcelled Armor, Surge (245)
Iron-caster - Inspiring Talisman, Surge (140)

Abyssal Decimators Regiment (160)
Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Abyssal Berserkers Troop (125)
Abyssal Berserkers Troop (125)

Abyssal Grotesques Horde (250)

Greater Obsidian Golem (160)

Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)

+

Spitters Horde (140)
Fleabag Riders Troop (95)
Fleabag Riders Troop (95)

Total - 1995

Got the CD troops I wanted, plus the extreme speed of Fleabags and a bit more shooting to apply pressure. I think the Spitters are dying for a magic item myself, but the points weren't in it. I also agree with the Mantic forum comments about the flag waver on fleabag, but you know, I value splitting the Berserkers up more

- Salvage

I like it, but feel like I would want to use the hero/warmachine slot that's available in the main list (and maybe the allied list, too). The simple thing to do would be to run no allies, turning the 335 points then available into:

Slavedriver - Diadem of Dragonkind (80)
Slave Orcs Troop (65)
Slave Orc Gore-riders Troop (85)
Slave Orc Gore-riders Troop (85)

With 20 points left for a magic item, likely for the Grotesques Horde. It gets me a third Inspiring, but I'm not sure if just 2 warmachines is going to be enough persuasion to get my enemy to hoof it across the field to me, as I would really like them to do!

Spd 4... the struggle is real.

 RiTides wrote:
Slavedriver - Diadem of Dragonkind (80)
Slave Orcs Troop (65)
Slave Orc Gore-riders Troop (85)
Slave Orc Gore-riders Troop (85)

With 20 points left for a magic item, likely for the Grotesques Horde.

Slave Orc troop + 20 points = Rocket #3? But then I run up against the specialist cap without the Berserker regiment in there ...

Anyway, I prefer this unallied list, and as much as I like the triple rocket, I also like the double 'serkers? Seems like it's one or the other In the end ... I might go with your triple rocket list above? Even though I dislike war engines (immobile + triple attaks + rarely hitting = sadness), I also feel like tripling down means the ability to protect some real force at range against units of all sizes. And with Spd 4 those wee Berserker units may be mostly counter-charging, unless they find opportunities to jump in? So higher Nerve, etc may be the thing.

(If you take the quoted stuff above, I'm guessing Caterpillar is the go to for the Grots. And if your original list, something dumb with the 5 points - is Fire Oil the jam?)

- Salvage

I'm not sure how much is using the models you have, but AD have some of the best chaff in the game with Gargoyles. They're a tempting unit high speed, and ideally for a chaff unit, they have low nerve plus high regen. This means if they don't break, they'll likely be back to near full health. there's nothing worse that chaff holding when you want it to rout.

three warmachines at 2000 points is about the minimum for getting the enemy to engage. Rockets are unusual in that they have three attacks but only blast d3 and piercing 1, so rather than unreliable but huge damage, they should be chipping away at enemy units every turn.

If you go goblins as your allies (and you should, as they are secretly awesome) I like having mawbeasts to screen your battle line, but I strongly support Gargoyles over fleabag riders, and I'm very bullish on fleabags. The lack of yellow bellied and flying make them more versatile, and while they hit softer, they are cheaper. IMO, the difference between Def 4+ and Def 3+ is pretty minor.

Most armies will want to engage, you need to build a list that can survive shooting and take the first charge, and I think you've done that. I'm a bit puzzled on Grotesques over elementals, especially since you have two models with surge, but either way you have two can openers.

Lack of Gargoyles is just because I don't want to run them, no secret plan . They do look amazing (3+ regen, flying and not yellow-bellied!) and cost effective, but I built this as a chaos dwarf list and they never had them. I just love the visual of chaos dwarfs and goblins, so that's what I'm going for

Really helpful thoughts guys, thanks! And yeah Salvage, it does seem to be a choice between third warmachine (or third hero) and configuring the Berserkers as a regiment versus two troops. Will play around with it, hopefully against Polonius . Will also definitely try out the golems at some point!

The regen on Gargoyles is almost a falsehood though... Gargoyles are chaff which must be addressed due to their speed, but outside of edge cases they will never survive long enough to see that first regen roll. They're just soooo fragile.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
The regen on Gargoyles is almost a falsehood though... Gargoyles are chaff which must be addressed due to their speed, but outside of edge cases they will never survive long enough to see that first regen roll. They're just soooo fragile.

I totally agree, but I've seen times where a unit of gargoyles hands around because of regen. I think that it's nice when you face armies with spot removal shooting, such as light cav or lightning bolt. One or two points adds up fast on Ne 9, and the odds of rolling a 7 or less are still pretty good.

Still, as an Ogre player, I love my Scouts. Even with Yellow bellied, I think that wolfboys are great. Don't forget that yellow bellied only applies to frontal charges, and does not apply at all when charging individuals or war machines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Lack of Gargoyles is just because I don't want to run them, no secret plan . They do look amazing (3+ regen, flying and not yellow-bellied!) and cost effective, but I built this as a chaos dwarf list and they never had them. I just love the visual of chaos dwarfs and goblins, so that's what I'm going for

Really helpful thoughts guys, thanks! And yeah Salvage, it does seem to be a choice between third warmachine (or third hero) and configuring the Berserkers as a regiment versus two troops. Will play around with it, hopefully against Polonius . Will also definitely try out the golems at some point

And not to sound like a shill, but especially at the casual and semicompetitive levels, KoW is pretty good about fielding what you like, and making it work.

If you have a vision for an army, it's probably workable, as long as you have a few basic tools in the kit. You have mawbeasts as charge blockers, wolfboyz as guided missles/flankers, berzerkers for follow up charging, and some hard hitters. It's an interesting list.

I'm really glad I asked for input here because I think I had slotted in way too many Mawbeast units (4 units of 10) and not enough Gargoyles (none!). While I really don't like the idea of normal Gargoyles, I suddenly remembered these things:



Jawbats from Titan Forge . I'm going to have the painter do just 2 units of Mawbeast packs, and 2 units of these to use as Gargoyles. That allows me to do something like this:


Supreme Iron-caster on Great Winged Halfbreed - Ensorcelled Armor (225)
Iron-caster - Inspiring Talisman, Surge (140)
Slavedriver - Diadem of Dragonkind (80)

Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Abyssal Decimators Regiment (160)
Abyssal Berserkers Regiment - Brew of Haste (195)

Slave Orc Gore Riders Troop (85)
Gargoyles Troop (80)
Gargoyles Troop (80)

Abyssal Grotesques Horde (250)

Greater Obsidian Golem (160)

Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)

Total - 2000


Those plucky Berskers are now SPD 6, baby! (They start naturally at SPD 5). As one of my "hammer" units, having them be fast enough to get the right charge seems really useful. I thought about giving it to the Grotesques, but they'll just have to stay at SPD 7. If I had another 5 points I might have given them the Potion of the Caterpillar to get Pathfinder, but can't afford it in this incarnation.

To do this I had to drop Surge from the Supreme Iron-Caster, but you guys seemed to think that was a bit extraneous, anyway. I liked the idea of double-surging the golem on the first turn - as right now he's only going to move forward an average of 9". If I decide to run the Golem horde instead of my Grotesques horde, I'll take the 40 points saved to get the second Surge back in the list, along with another magic item (a shooting item on the gore riders seems like a fun idea ).

Overall I'm not sure that my non-allied version has enough shooting - just the 3 rockets for long range. Allying in a goblin spitter horde is cheap (just 140 points) and allows me to take another warmachine plus the awesome sounding Mincer . So, I'll play around with it and see. Going in the mail on Tuesday, so if you have any last feedback please let me know

Jawbats for great justice

New list continues to look good. Triple fast chaff will be nice to have for sure.

- Salvage

I like that list a lot. It feels like an old school Chaos Dwarf list with some new toys, and I think it'll be a pretty solid list. You have some ranged, some chaff, some hard hitters, and a solid battle line.

Thanks guys, the feedback has been extremely helpful! Going in the mail tomorrow and I'll post pics when I have it back (and likely lose to Polonius' ogres to inaugurate it ).

 RiTides wrote:
I'm really glad I asked for input here because I think I had slotted in way too many Mawbeast units (4 units of 10) and not enough Gargoyles (none!). While I really don't like the idea of normal Gargoyles, I suddenly remembered these things:



Jawbats from Titan Forge .

Those Jawbats just made me go 'Eeheehee' out loud....

Embarrassing, because I am on my laptop at a restaurant at the moment....

The Auld Grump

Mission accomplished

I'll post up pics of the painted results as soon as they're available!

The army is now painted, by Scarsminimadness of Dakka! Check it out below and I'm sure he'd appreciate comments on his P&M blog here





I love the diverse look of the overall army (it's what made me want to start chaos dwarfs back in the day!) although the more uniform dwarf contingent is sweet, too

The only model not on a correct base size is the Maw Krusha (Slasher / Giant), it's on an 80mmx100mm. Are Slashers worth the cost savings over Giants, by the way - the extra nerve seems worth the 25 points to me!

Can't wait to try out this army against Polonius' ogres! I think I'm going to try the all dwarf list for simplicity first, then start mixing in the gobbos . I'll be using the Iron Daemon (which has a gobbo crew!) as a Mincer or King on Chariot. Is the latter a viable option / has anyone tried it in a list?

That's awesome! Did you scratch the big elemental?

The big golem is a Cronus Golem from Rothand Studios. It's huge, I was very happy that it still fits on the 75mm base! I actually have a spare if anyone is looking for one, too . I think it's a great match for the Mantic golems.

At some point I'll get pictures of the goblin half of the army like with the dwarfs above since I think they're hard to make out in the final pics. For the jawbats (technically part of the dwarf half but still!) scars had the idea to use rod instead of the bases they come with. Definitely the right call, they barely fit anyway and to do so he had to vary / alternate the height of each on the base!

SWEET!

Awesome to see the army painted up, and I have to say it's much larger and more diverse than I thought it was going to be Much love for the big lads in particular - excellent big golem, blue (!) lammusu, and I continue to be a huuuuge fan of the maw-krusha and always thrilled when I see him rampaging KOW armies

But really though: that lil' goblin on a bear

- Salvage

Thanks Salvage, he's one of my favorites too and was originally a big part of the reason I wanted to include goblin allies!

The Maw Krusha came out after I'd already sent these (had planned to use a Blood Maw from Mierce) but I was able to swap it and am really impressed with that model

On that note, I've been thinking about what list I can run the Maw Krusha in. In my list in the OP, I had 1500 points of dwarfs but had all the chaff in my allies. If I want the Maw Krusha in, I think the Lamassu is out, so I can fit the chaff in my main list:


Iron-caster - Inspiring Talisman, Surge (140)
Slavedriver - Diadem of Dragonkind (80)

Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Abyssal Berserkers Troop (125)
Abyssal Decimators Troop (120)

Slave Orc Gore Riders (85)
Gargoyles (80)

Abyssal Grotesques Horde (250)

Greater Obsidian Golem (160)

Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)

Total - 1500


Basically a straight swap from the list in the OP of hero points for chaff, saving 165 on heroes and adding two chaff units. However that list also had double berserkers and was 5 points over, if I want that I'll need to swap the gore riders to a second gargoyle unit. But I'm going to try the more varied list first!

So, how to fit in the Maw Krusha? Two options:


Spitters Horde (140)
Slasher (165)
King on Chariot (130)
War Trombone (65)
Total - 500

Spitters Horde - Heart-seeking Chant (170)
Giant (190)
Biggit on Fleabag (75)
War Trombone (65)
Total - 500


The second definitely seems better! I have to choose between finding points for the Giant or running it as a Slasher, but the Giant just seems so much stronger. I can also always not put in the magic item Heart-seeking chant, and save 5 points from the main list to fit in Brew of Haste and the Caterpillar magic items, likely on the Berserkers and Grotesques.

I'm wondering how often people have their chaff in range of inspiring? Without the Lamassu, the dwarf chaff seems like it won't be in range of it... unless I swap the Iron-caster for a Halfbreed Champion (very tempting!). I could do this with the points saved from turning the Biggit into a Flaggit on Fleabag (making it truly chaff!) or from dropping the Heart-seeking Chant like above, and maybe save 5 points somewhere to fit in Brew of Haste, too.

Going with the Halfbreed Champion would also free up the Inspiring Talisman, so I'd have the option of swapping the Biggit for a Wiz + Inspiring Talisman + Banechant. This seems like an expensive way to get Piercing when compared to the Heart-seeking Chant, though!

Thoughts appreciated!

This stuff looks so good! I'm starting to paint my abyssal dwarfs, though waiting for the bulk of the figures to be dug out of the storage locker many states away. Good inspiration here!

Thanks VN!! Scars did a fantastic job and I'll have more pics when I put the army into action against Polonius and Wehrkind!

Got to try out the army and it was a smashing success! Granted, it was a bit of a test game, but I loved how it played. My favorite part surprised me - a Decimator regiment backed up by a Berserker regiment, it seemed made for it!

Quick pic and then my list:



Supreme Iron-caster on Great Winged Halfbreed - Ensorcelled Armor, Surge (245)
Slavedriver - Diadem of Dragonkind (80)

Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Immortal Guard Regiment (145)
Abyssal Berserkers Troop (125)
Abyssal Decimators Troop (120)

Gargoyles (80)

Abyssal Grotesques Horde (250)

Greater Obsidian Golem (160)

Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)
Katsuchan Rocket Launcher (85)

Total - 1520

Spitters Horde - Heart-seeking Chant (170)
Giant (190)
Flaggit on Fleabag (55)
War Trombone (65)

Total - 480

I was happy with everything in the list except the Surge upgrade, which I never used. The Golem is so slow anyway, I used it as an anchor part of my line. So I could use those 20 points to turn the Flaggit back into a Biggit, getting 3 ranged attacks. Or use it to give the Grotesques a magic item.

The Gargoyles absolutely shined as well, participating in killing two units with rear charges. Would love to have another unit of them in the list, perhaps at the cost of the War Trombone.

Looking forward to trying things out again soon!

OMF the Wehr Crew hit the table again! What'd he use the big gal for? I remember being a little saddened by his prospective lists, as they didn't really include her ...

Anyway, good stuff

- Salvage

He was trying out Orc rules so that was his war drum . One of the units that got rear charged by the gargoyles, as you can see above it had turned around to face the Lammassu!

We felt afterwards that the 3 hordes he took was at least one too many for maneuvering. We did a few things wrong there, though, as it seems in KoW it's much easier to get a charge off than it was in fantasy!

Only question I still had on that was "closing the door", and I don't see it in the FAQ or the main rules. If you can make contact with an enemy unit, but can't "close the door", can you charge it?

Generally, the answer to "can I charge" is "Yes." KoW really is pretty forgiving for allowing charges.

If you have LOS to the target, they are in your charge arc, and you can move into position, than you will slide into position.

the only time you really can't charge is if something is in the way, if there isn't room to place the unit against the target unit (meaning most units can only be charged by two units at a time, aside from hordes), or if the only valid charge is a corner to corner charge.

There is no maximum move for a charging unit. If they are in charge range, they will move as far as they need to.

Yes that makes sense - still just curious about the one case though. If there is a larger unit charging a smaller unit surrounded by other units, so it can touch the unit but can't align to it, can it charge?

Seemingly, it only could if the other unit "closes the door". I'm kind of shocked that isn't in the FAQ... it has to be addressed somewhere right, seems like it would come up a lot?

Or maybe this is all just obvious/assumed to veteran players, and it falls under the "can't charge if there isn't room to place the unit against the target unit" logic you posted above?

Here's a thread over at Mantic you may or may not have read, RT: http://vb.manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-rules-discussion/240853-charging-but-cannot-close-door

- Salvage

That is so helpful! I'm still reading it, but it looks like when a big unit has other legitimate charge targets and can't fit against one after aligning, it has to pick another target. But if it's boxed in and can't charge any (but should be able to) fudging is required - and they suggest the defender aligning. But it's only in the most corner case when they have no options.

I.e. this from Daedle on the final page:

That's the line we draw. Forcing an enemy to charge a unit of your choice by blocking a charge to your other units is fine. Completely stopping an enemy from doing anything is where you need to fudge it.