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Chaos Space Marines.
Too expensive points wise
Poor synergy between units
Absolutely unpickable units (in truth other armies have these too)
3 out of the 4 marks are poor choices
Poor mobility
Counter effective special rules

So what you all are saying is that if I finally do my Stormtrooper army and I roll into a tournament where everyone has Chaos Marines and Orks, I have a chance to win it all?????

 Grimmor wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Then surely Eldar and Tau should be crying for a century after this

Im gonna give Tau a pass, as they still have lousy internal Balance. Eldar however get to cry until at least 10th ed.

They're space elves. They never stop crying. In the Eldar language the glyph signifying "to live" is the same as "to weep".

As someone with 12k+ Nids and up to 10k DE now and I have 100's of hours of play time with both.

If we are talking Just pure Codex, Nids is terrible, DE are far better.

If we can had supplements and formations, Nids are better, but Coven is even better than DE (not better than Nids).

Coven can do something most other armies cant do, 40+ DS'ing 3W T5 FnP Dudes with 6+ MC's and still having Raiders/Venoms spread out for gun support It only lacks AA and that is what kills it, 0 AA.


I have a highly competitive friend that plays BA, they are by far bettre than Nids/DE/Harli/CSm/Orcs.


CSM or GK are both very bad (Pure Codex and no Allies).

So TL;DR: No Allies and pure codex, Nids > CSM > GK's

BA are not substantially better if better at all than those armies you listed.

Agreed with Martel. Having owned Nids, CSM and BA, 7th BA are the only army I've ever owned that hasn't even seen tournament play. Sure Nids and CSM are more or less monobuilds with perhaps some slight variations, but between two players of equal skill, the poor sap running BA has an up hill fight against both.

General Hobbs wrote:



So what you all are saying is that if I finally do my Stormtrooper army and I roll into a tournament where everyone has Chaos Marines and Orks, I have a chance to win it all?????

Scions aren't half bad, it's just that they were designed to be allies, not an independent Codex (which is why I hate all of these mini-dexes). Really, going off of the fluff in the Codex, there are a number of interesting units that could have been added in (there are numerous accounts of Scions infiltrating enemy strongholds, for example, and even Scions kicking ass in CC, in the Codex) to make the Codex able to stand on it's own, but GW evidently didn't want to spend the money making all of those models, I guess (the hypocrisy is real). However, even as they stand, Scions can do an excellent job in niche roles (Meltacide Scions comes to mind; significantly cheaper than the SM equivalent, and will probably live just as long), such as dealing with Meqs. In my SM/Scions army that I'm currently building, for example, the Marines are going to be responsible for dealing with light infantry and blobs, while my Scions are responsible for Meqs, while both will share the role of destroying enemy vehicles (lascannons on combat squadded tacs and Meltacide Scions). Will it be super competitive? I highly doubt it, but it also isn't going to be total garbage, not even close to the level that CSM are on. I've also never seen batreps where Scions were just utter garbage (tbf, though, I have very little interest in mono-scions batreps)

militarium tempestus and sistser of battle are the bottom of the food chain, orks, dark eldar (assuming only their codex here by itself) occupy the next block up of not total garbadge but might as well be

 ionusx wrote:
militarium tempestus and sistser of battle are the bottom of the food chain, orks, dark eldar (assuming only their codex here by itself) occupy the next block up of not total garbadge but might as well be

Sisters may have a boring & half-arsed excuse of a "codex", but they are in no way a bottom dweller army.

Nothing is as bad as pure CSM's. Helturkies & Plaguemarines can't carry an entire codex anymore, and any half-decent dedicated assault unit can beat the living snot out of the AoBF Jugger Lord and his Spawn/Biker buddies.

 dusara217 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:



So what you all are saying is that if I finally do my Stormtrooper army and I roll into a tournament where everyone has Chaos Marines and Orks, I have a chance to win it all?????

Scions aren't half bad, it's just that they were designed to be allies, not an independent Codex (which is why I hate all of these mini-dexes). Really, going off of the fluff in the Codex, there are a number of interesting units that could have been added in (there are numerous accounts of Scions infiltrating enemy strongholds, for example, and even Scions kicking ass in CC, in the Codex) to make the Codex able to stand on it's own, but GW evidently didn't want to spend the money making all of those models, I guess (the hypocrisy is real). However, even as they stand, Scions can do an excellent job in niche roles (Meltacide Scions comes to mind; significantly cheaper than the SM equivalent, and will probably live just as long), such as dealing with Meqs. In my SM/Scions army that I'm currently building, for example, the Marines are going to be responsible for dealing with light infantry and blobs, while my Scions are responsible for Meqs, while both will share the role of destroying enemy vehicles (lascannons on combat squadded tacs and Meltacide Scions). Will it be super competitive? I highly doubt it, but it also isn't going to be total garbage, not even close to the level that CSM are on. I've also never seen batreps where Scions were just utter garbage (tbf, though, I have very little interest in mono-scions batreps)

the problrm is that the Scions arent actually particularly good at killing MEQ's (if they MEQ's are getting even just a 5+ cover save, then your wound output drops to almost the same level as bolters), and the short range means they have to be so close that even a couple survivors can counterassault very easily and the scions are just guardsmen in CC. Theyre kinda sorta ok at the suicide melta role, but thats about it

They really should have been much more like the Skitarii Vanguard (who got everything ive been wanting for Stormtroopers since 4E...but better).

 Amishprn86 wrote:
As someone with 12k+ Nids and up to 10k DE now and I have 100's of hours of play time with both.

If we are talking Just pure Codex, Nids is terrible, DE are far better.

If we can had supplements and formations, Nids are better, but Coven is even better than DE (not better than Nids).

Coven can do something most other armies cant do, 40+ DS'ing 3W T5 FnP Dudes with 6+ MC's and still having Raiders/Venoms spread out for gun support It only lacks AA and that is what kills it, 0 AA.


I have a highly competitive friend that plays BA, they are by far bettre than Nids/DE/Harli/CSm/Orcs.


CSM or GK are both very bad (Pure Codex and no Allies).

So TL;DR: No Allies and pure codex, Nids > CSM > GK's

I only have nids left - my favourite (I sold off my Tau and SM armies). I don't know which is worse but I'm only using the nid codex (no dataslates, FW or supplements) and it is pretty terrible. A lousy product the day it was released in 6th ed and is still lousy in 7th.

 Ventus wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
As someone with 12k+ Nids and up to 10k DE now and I have 100's of hours of play time with both.

If we are talking Just pure Codex, Nids is terrible, DE are far better.

If we can had supplements and formations, Nids are better, but Coven is even better than DE (not better than Nids).

Coven can do something most other armies cant do, 40+ DS'ing 3W T5 FnP Dudes with 6+ MC's and still having Raiders/Venoms spread out for gun support It only lacks AA and that is what kills it, 0 AA.


I have a highly competitive friend that plays BA, they are by far bettre than Nids/DE/Harli/CSm/Orcs.


CSM or GK are both very bad (Pure Codex and no Allies).

So TL;DR: No Allies and pure codex, Nids > CSM > GK's

I only have nids left - my favourite (I sold off my Tau and SM armies). I don't know which is worse but I'm only using the nid codex (no dataslates, FW or supplements) and it is pretty terrible. A lousy product the day it was released in 6th ed and is still lousy in 7th.

CSM's are actually worse... At least even basic codex 'Nids get Flyrant spam. Pure Codex CSM's have no way to answer that many FMC's, especially that many FMC's with that level of firepower.

Still going with BA here. We don't even have a slot as point efficient as the single mutilator. If I could field my ASM as tens squads of one guy, maybe then.

Martel732 wrote:
Still going with BA here. We don't even have a slot as point efficient as the single mutilator. If I could field my ASM as tens squads of one guy, maybe then.

3 Bikers w/2x grav + combi-grav is hugely pts efficient.

5 Tacs w/Heavy flamer OR Melta + combi-melta & Drop Pod is solid.

5 ASM's w/2x Flamer OR 2x melta & Drop Pod/Jump Packs is solid.

Fragioso w/Drop Pod is stupid-good.

Death Co. make Every. Single. CSM CC unit. WEEP WITH TEARS OF JEALOUSY!!


Literally, the ONLY things CSM's have that's arguably 'better' than it's BA equivalent are Plagemarines beating out Tacticals, and helturkies. That's pretty much it.
Oh, and Mutilators are garbage... please, let's just leave that can of worms to burn in car fire!

Death co aren't substantially better compared to twc or wulfen or wraiths.

I don't think drop pods are that great for ba. Certainly all the other chapters do it better.

I don't mutilators can be discounted if you are trying to target overload an opponent.

Martel732 wrote:
Death co aren't substantially better compared to twc or wulfen or wraiths.

And yet, shockingly, none of those units are CSM units!

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think drop pods are that great for ba. Certainly all the other chapters do it better.

The one and only 'leg-up' other Chapters have is they can get their Pods for 'free' under certain conditions.

You know who has 0 Deep Strike mitigation, let alone army-wide access the game's single best delivery system? Chaos Marines, that's who.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't mutilators can be discounted if you are trying to target overload an opponent.

Obliterators are 10x better, while Termiecide can actually achieve something of almost relevance.

Mutilators literally have exactly 0 reason to exist - EVERYTHING in our book can do their job better than they can!

Drop pods turn off ba chapter tactics.

Drop pods frequently backfire against good players. I would say a gladius razorback is the best transport.

Plague marines and helldrakes might be enough to put csm ahead as they are better than anything you listed for ba.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods turn off ba chapter tactics.

Drop pods frequently backfire against good players. I would say a gladius razorback is the best transport.

Plague marines and helldrakes might be enough to put csm ahead as they are better than anything you listed for ba.

Y'know what we need, a round-robin tournament of 'Nids, CSM, and BA in a fight to not be the absolute worst army in 40k. I'm talking making the best list you can from each codex (no FW, dataslates, supplements, blah blah blah) and fighting it out. My money's still on CSM, although I think I'm beginning to be swayed toward BA........Let's all just agree that we've all been completely let down and left behind by GW's "designers"

 Battlesong wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop pods turn off ba chapter tactics.

Drop pods frequently backfire against good players. I would say a gladius razorback is the best transport.

Plague marines and helldrakes might be enough to put csm ahead as they are better than anything you listed for ba.

Y'know what we need, a round-robin tournament of 'Nids, CSM, and BA in a fight to not be the absolute worst army in 40k. I'm talking making the best list you can from each codex (no FW, dataslates, supplements, blah blah blah) and fighting it out. My money's still on CSM, although I think I'm beginning to be swayed toward BA........Let's all just agree that we've all been completely let down and left behind by GW's "designers"

BA's can get pretty mean against the other bottom feeders by going extreme MSU:
HQ: Sang Priest for cheap FnP
Elites: 1x 5 Sterns w/Combi of choice in a Drop Pod or Razorback + 2x Fragiosos in Pods
Troops: 2x 5 Scouts for table control + 1-2x 5 Tacticals w/Heavy flamer OR Melta + Combi-Melta in Pods
Fast: 2x 3 Bikers w/paired Grav + Combi-Grav + 1x 5 ASM w/paired Meltaguns

Rinse, repeat 'like' CAD's until pts run out. (minus the extra Troops obviously!)

Chaos Marines can't compete against that... the Alpha Strike ability alone is capable of nuking enough transports T1 that the Grav Bikers can clean up the biggest threat(s). Only thing that worries the list are Baledrakes, but again, since everything is 5 man squads or fewer, it already really limits the damage they can do.

Maybe if the CSM player went with nothing but multiple CAD's that were all Flying Princes + 2x10 Cultists?! Just stay airborn and annoy the living hell out of the BA player?!
Still, for their cost you're only looking at likely 2 tooled-up + 2-3 semi-tooled DP's in 1500pts, since they're so badly overcosted to begin with...

Except that 3X melta doesn't reliably take out anything. Welcome to 7th. Fragnoughts are useless against units that are meched up. Everything that BA drop will die to shooting or get assault immediately.

It's literally piecemealing my force for you. BA suck at alpha strike. I think CSM can wipe up your BA suggestion by just deploying everything and having no reserves that aren't mandatory.

Martel732 wrote:
Except that 3X melta doesn't reliably take out anything. Welcome to 7th. Fragnoughts are useless against units that are meched up. Everything that BA drop will die to shooting or get assault immediately.

It's literally piecemealing my force for you. BA suck at alpha strike. I think CSM can wipe up your BA suggestion by just deploying everything and having no reserves that aren't mandatory.

Except that the scariest 'gunline' CSM's can produce are a bunch of Noise Marines w/Blastmasters, Autocanon Havocs & Oblits, the latter two are both Heavy Support choices...

The only 'armour' of relevance CSM's can bring are Rhinos, Maulerfiends (which Dreadnough will demolish because daemon engines are low attack WS3), and Vindicators, the latter two of which are yet again, both Heavy Support choices...


Chaos Marines 'effective units' pretty much boil down to;
HQ: Sorcerers.
- occasionally an AoBF Jugger Lord (extremely expensive, poor invuln, no 2+ save option, own weapon will kill him, 'Champion of Chaos' nerf)
- occasionally a winged Nurgle Prince w/Black Mace (ultra expensive, only T5/W4/3+/5++, is forced to sink 1 power into the awful God specific lores)

Elites: uh, Termicides w/Come-Plasmas... maybe?!
- 5 Noise Marines w/Blastmaster. (expensive, blast marker is a let down)

Troops: 10 Cultists
- 5 Plaguemarines w/paired special weapons (requires MoN Lord, who is a bad pts-sink overall)

Fast: Chaos Spawn
- 3 Bikes w/paired Special weapon + matching combi (best they get is Plasma or Melta - nothing comes close to Grav!)
- Helturkey

Heavy: Oblits (can't Overwatch due to Slow & Purposeful rule, must change their weapon every single turn, because... "feth Chaos!")
- Autocannon Havocs (still the game's worst dedicated fire support unit due to extreme lack of decent rate of fire/low AP.)
- Maulerfiend (WS3, low number of attacks really hurts, no 'Daemon of X' rule.)
- Vindicator (can't squadron, no 'Fast' variant)



Everything else in our codex is pure overcosted gak, and only ever sees play because of personal tastes.

I'm honestly completely jealous of the breadth of options that Blood Angels get! Sure you're nowhere near 7.5ed levels of awesomesauce, but you can still actively build & play various styles, not to mention field something scarier than a damned Autocannon or Plasma gun.

" not to mention field something scarier than a damned Autocannon or Plasma gun. "

Not really. We are stuck with crappy Imperial heavy weapons on crappy Imperial platforms. The only unit you need to kill the alpha strike you listed are plague marines with plasma guns. They are safe from the alpha in their rhinos, get out and then kill the alpha strike.

"Chaos Marines 'effective units' pretty much boil down to; "

If you use them cohesively, you will trash the BA list you listed up above. Even hellbrutes are an issue for BA, because we can't kill them at range.

" nothing comes close to Grav!

Regular grav guns have their issues. Plasma guns will hull point light transports much faster, since grav guns lack grav amps. Grav guns do not generate enough wounds to take down MCs in cover. They don't generate enough wounds to take down GMCs at all. Grav guns fail totally against demons. The jump from grav gun to grav cannon is enormous.

You can't kill a helbrute at range?

I think you're exaggerating a bit there.

Even if there was truth to that, you can easily smashfeth them in cc.

what about deathwing

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
You can't kill a helbrute at range?

I think you're exaggerating a bit there.

Go look at some BA lists. If you go alpha strike, you are relying on podded units that by default move themselves into assault range. Assault lists load up on melta, and also have to get close. To engage it at range, you'd have almost list tailor and take miserable Imperial weapons on predator hulls or something. I've flushed all heavy weapons out of most of my lists because they just don't cause enough damage.

"Even if there was truth to that, you can easily smashfeth them in cc."

I don't see any TWC in my list. Or chapter masters. Do you? The sad truth is that BA aren't even that good at assault once they get to assault.

I've looked at BA lists, played with my buddies BA a few times. Almost bought a collection of them, but decided not to because of their rules. I recognize they aren't in a good place. I like them and want to collect them but just can't justify it.

That said, I still think you can kill a helbrute at range. I think you're exaggerating.

Death company will destroy one in assault, mephiston could, vanguard. But you'll just come back and say all those units would have been killed by the rest of the csm

I don't disagree with you, BA needs massive help. I'm just stuck on you saying you can't kill a helbrute at range.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I've looked at BA lists, played with my buddies BA a few times. Almost bought a collection of them, but decided not to because of their rules. I recognize they aren't in a good place. I like them and want to collect them but just can't justify it.

That said, I still think you can kill a helbrute at range. I think you're exaggerating.

I could with an even worse BA list than the ones I'm using. Tri-las preds and auto las preds are functionally helpless against MCs (they can't deal enough wounds), so there's no reason to bring them, even if they would fix the helbrute problem. Basically, I don't use the BA heavy support section because it's all awful. That pretty much precludes taking out helbrutes at range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

eosgreen wrote:
what about deathwing

They're bad too. But they are a subset of a great codex.

Martel, I'm probably the your strongest advocate in that BA are the worst of the worst rule wise (which
is a crying ass shame cause their lore and models are awesome), but I would definitely let the "can't kill a hellbrute argument die. Definitely winning anybody over with that one.

I play both armies and in a pure codex vs codex death match for shittiest book in the game, I could see BA tabled by turn 4. The only area that BA top out CSM is in the Psychic phase, but being confined to 2 psykers even that won't make much difference.

BA can kill the helbrute, but it will be costly. That's all I'm saying.

Martel732 wrote:
BA can kill the helbrute, but it will be costly. That's all I'm saying.

You hit it with grav once now its immobolized and useless

Was that so hard?