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 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA can kill the helbrute, but it will be costly. That's all I'm saying.

You hit it with grav once now its immobolized and useless

Was that so hard?

Grav is unlikely to work out. At any rate, grav guns are wasted on any vehicle due to the high failure rate. You are talking about grav cannons.

You only need 3-4 relentless gravguns to get a single 6. That's just two bike units

Two bike units in a pretty crowded FA slot, not to mention ~190 points to immobilize 100 point model... That would also be better suited to nuking oblits/ plague Marines etc. I hope you were being sarcastic crownaxe because you actually perfectly illustrated Martels point.

Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard have it the worst.

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard have it the worst.

Why guard? Guard can put so much on the field they enemy can't hope to kill it all.

Heafstaag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard have it the worst.

Why guard? Guard can put so much on the field they enemy can't hope to kill it all.

I'm guessing you don't play against a lot of Guard players.

Heafstaag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard have it the worst.

Why guard? Guard can put so much on the field they enemy can't hope to kill it all.

its hard to win game where 11/12 missions are objectives and the entire army moves 6" a turn

 MarsNZ wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard have it the worst.

Why guard? Guard can put so much on the field they enemy can't hope to kill it all.

I'm guessing you don't play against a lot of Guard players.

I play guard.

I don't get wiped often.

We have plenty of transports and cheap bodies to after objectives, though my group doesn't play maelstrom missions. The entire concept of maelsrom missions is boring to the extreme, for me. I don't care if you did a cool move turn 3. What matters it what's left turn 7.

Heafstaag wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard have it the worst.

Why guard? Guard can put so much on the field they enemy can't hope to kill it all.

I'm guessing you don't play against a lot of Guard players.

I play guard.

I don't get wiped often.

We have plenty of transports and cheap bodies to after objectives, though my group doesn't play maelstrom missions. The entire concept of maelsrom missions is boring to the extreme, for me. I don't care if you did a cool move turn 3. What matters it what's left turn 7.

Most events and lots of people play Maelstrom in some form, even if it is awful.

That said, IG have horrific internal balance, and, to be quite frank, they don't have the numbers or transports needed to compete anymore, and what IG do have is increasingly undergunned and vulnerable to an increasing array of weapons and abilities (such as Grav, Haywire, D, Gauss, etc) that simply ignore AV and strip HP's like candy, while the infantry are increasingly vulnerable to increasing levels of firepower and ignores cover abilities and quite simply find themselves unable to hurt many things at all. Contrary to popular opinion, massed Lasgun fire does not win games and never has. When you're dealing with something like a Necron Wraith unit that needs damn near 900 Lasgun shots to kill, there's just no way IG can muster that sort of firepower to deal with them.

For an army that's reliant entirely on shooting, it can be matched and exceeded in that arena by many other armies, even those with excellent CC abilities as well, and they usually have way better mobility to boot.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard have it the worst.

Why guard? Guard can put so much on the field they enemy can't hope to kill it all.

I'm guessing you don't play against a lot of Guard players.

I play guard.

I don't get wiped often.

We have plenty of transports and cheap bodies to after objectives, though my group doesn't play maelstrom missions. The entire concept of maelsrom missions is boring to the extreme, for me. I don't care if you did a cool move turn 3. What matters it what's left turn 7.

Most events and lots of people play Maelstrom in some form, even if it is awful.

That said, IG have horrific internal balance, and, to be quite frank, they don't have the numbers or transports needed to compete anymore, and what IG do have is increasingly undergunned and vulnerable to an increasing array of weapons and abilities (such as Grav, Haywire, D, Gauss, etc) that simply ignore AV and strip HP's like candy, while the infantry are increasingly vulnerable to increasing levels of firepower and ignores cover abilities and quite simply find themselves unable to hurt many things at all. Contrary to popular opinion, massed Lasgun fire does not win games and never has. When you're dealing with something like a Necron Wraith unit that needs damn near 900 Lasgun shots to kill, there's just no way IG can muster that sort of firepower to deal with them.

For an army that's reliant entirely on shooting, it can be matched and exceeded in that arena by many other armies, even those with excellent CC abilities as well, and they usually have way better mobility to boot.

While i agree that guard are certainly not what they once were, they definately aren't the least competitive army.

That's probably accurate, I'll grant that, I'd put them above something like CSM's for sure, but they're not far from the least competitive. The can work well as an allied force to bring a type of firepower to bear that another might not have organic access to, but as a distinct army in their own right they're definitely in the bottom few rungs.

When I see, what my pals can do with the Guard.....
Nope, they aren`t as bad as Tyranids or CSM.

 Ankhalagon wrote:
When I see, what my pals can do with the Guard.....
Nope, they aren`t as bad as Tyranids or CSM.

Tyranids; slow arse assault horde army that relies almost entirely on cover, with next to no ranged anti-tank to speak of... In an edition where shooting is king, and cover is easily ignored by half the game's armies!

Chaos Marines; MEQ army that's rooted firmly in 3rd/4th ed play styles, with 5th edition pts costing, has no identity of its own, and is badly held back by the game's worst model line (SoB not withstanding)... In an edition where everyone else has options & 'modern' toys, plus special rules & abilities coming out the wazoo, and where 'Assault-based Rhino Rush' tactics are dead & buried.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's probably accurate, I'll grant that, I'd put them above something like CSM's for sure, but they're not far from the least competitive. The can work well as an allied force to bring a type of firepower to bear that another might not have organic access to, but as a distinct army in their own right they're definitely in the bottom few rungs.

Interesting. I thought guard would be in the middle, but then they may be due to my meta's quirks.

Heafstaag wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's probably accurate, I'll grant that, I'd put them above something like CSM's for sure, but they're not far from the least competitive. The can work well as an allied force to bring a type of firepower to bear that another might not have organic access to, but as a distinct army in their own right they're definitely in the bottom few rungs.

Interesting. I thought guard would be in the middle, but then they may be due to my meta's quirks.

Anywhere that plays predominantly Maelstrom only based missions is a death sentence for IG. They simply can't get about the table quickly enough to compete in any way.
Kill Points or just going basic static objective scoring/table quarters, Guard definitely move up to lower middle of the road.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's probably accurate, I'll grant that, I'd put them above something like CSM's for sure, but they're not far from the least competitive. The can work well as an allied force to bring a type of firepower to bear that another might not have organic access to, but as a distinct army in their own right they're definitely in the bottom few rungs.

Interesting. I thought guard would be in the middle, but then they may be due to my meta's quirks.

Anywhere that plays predominantly Maelstrom only based missions is a death sentence for IG. They simply can't get about the table quickly enough to compete in any way.
Kill Points or just going basic static objective scoring/table quarters, Guard definitely move up to lower middle of the road.

That's kinda what I was thinking based on what others have said.

Missions for 40k have always been kinda 'meh', in my opinion. I always liked 7th edition fantasy victory points, personally. I think something along the lines of a few static objectives and mix of kill points would make for the best missions. You would get more points for objectives, that maybe be able to offset your oppenents points if they inflict heavy casualties on your army. Rewards killing the enemy (the main fun of 40k), and taking and holding objectives. I think that change in and of itself would help the 'uncompetive' armies.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's probably accurate, I'll grant that, I'd put them above something like CSM's for sure, but they're not far from the least competitive. The can work well as an allied force to bring a type of firepower to bear that another might not have organic access to, but as a distinct army in their own right they're definitely in the bottom few rungs.

Interesting. I thought guard would be in the middle, but then they may be due to my meta's quirks.

Anywhere that plays predominantly Maelstrom only based missions is a death sentence for IG. They simply can't get about the table quickly enough to compete in any way.
Kill Points or just going basic static objective scoring/table quarters, Guard definitely move up to lower middle of the road.

Where are you Chimera's, your allies, your anything? As a new Guard player, attaching them to my SW army, their perfect.

However, this page is a pure Codex. Fine. Leman Russ, Pask, mulching anything. Wyverns for Horde Management, and a Platoon for the Autocannons. That's roughly 1000, for a lot of high volume shooting. Now add Mech Vets in large numbers to get objectives and 3 Primaris Psykers for massive amounts of Warp Charge Spam.

You have ObSec on your back objectives, your middle table objectives can be easily claimed by the Chimera Vets. And alpha strikes have to choose killing Pask or your HWTs. But if you screened them right, you will have zero problem keeping them alive long enough to feth up BAs, CSMs, Orks, and DE transports. So you've killed each of the armies mobility on the Bottom Four. Sisters also lose their transports quickly without much hope of their deathstar surviving insane amounts of fire. Now we're in mid-tier. SMs and other Drop-Pod armies will basically eat either your armor or your HWTs, that's ok. The other guys turn and wipe em.

Eldar do mean things to this list anyway, and Tau can, probably out shoot you in their sleep.

gatebuster202 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's probably accurate, I'll grant that, I'd put them above something like CSM's for sure, but they're not far from the least competitive. The can work well as an allied force to bring a type of firepower to bear that another might not have organic access to, but as a distinct army in their own right they're definitely in the bottom few rungs.

Interesting. I thought guard would be in the middle, but then they may be due to my meta's quirks.

Anywhere that plays predominantly Maelstrom only based missions is a death sentence for IG. They simply can't get about the table quickly enough to compete in any way.
Kill Points or just going basic static objective scoring/table quarters, Guard definitely move up to lower middle of the road.

Where are you Chimera's,

More expensive than in the previous codex, and far easier to kill than when the last codex came out as well.

your allies

Not everyone wants to play with allies, the strengths of allies aren't the strengths of IG, they're the strength of the allied contingent.

your anything?

That's the problem...

As a new Guard player, attaching them to my SW army, their perfect.

Most people would agree with this, they're great as an allied contingent to another army, bringing capabilities that other army might lack, but on their own, everything is slow, easy to kill, and in 7E, undergunned.

However, this page is a pure Codex. Fine. Leman Russ, Pask, mulching anything.

Also hugely expensive, has to bring along at least the mandatory 2nd russ tank (adding to the cost), and isn't really all that survivable in 7E.

Wyverns for Horde Management

Wyverns are great. They're not the army as a whole however.

and a Platoon for the Autocannons

Which, for what you're paying, are extremely expensive and ineffectual. A grip of BS3 autocannons isn't what it used to be, and there's more tools than ever for removing these kinds of units. IG infantry based heavy weapons are amongst the least capable, easiest to kill, and ineffectual heavy weapons units in the game.

Now add Mech Vets in large numbers to get objectives

These have to do double-duty as strike units and objective grabbers, and quite frankly are usually suicide units if the guys ever have to get out, are are much easier to kill or neutralize in 7E than in 5E with the last book.

and 3 Primaris Psykers for massive amounts of Warp Charge Spam.

Yes, they can get lots of warp charges, but they can't make use of them as effectively as psykers in other armies can, particularly anything "self buffing" (woo +3 initiative and attacks on my...S3 T3 I3 5+sv psyker)