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Skullhammer wrote:
One simple answer tednugent and that is the admech think older is better and to mess with anypart is sacralige and punishiable by death.
So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

In the warhammer universe, windows XP was the height of operating systems. It was hailed as the glorious gold standard and used up until the machine spirit and all that crazy jazz was discovered. Guess that also explains why they have knives, and not fancy light saber plasma blade.... super... vibro tech.. shenaniginizer weapons as their CC weapons. simple knife will do for just about everyone. Chainswords are OK, but knives are somehow just as good!

If it aint broke, don't fix it, works for me!

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
One simple answer tednugent and that is the admech think older is better and to mess with anypart is sacralige and punishiable by death.
So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

In the warhammer universe, windows XP was the height of operating systems. It was hailed as the glorious gold standard and used up until the machine spirit and all that crazy jazz was discovered.

Looking at what came after, they weren't far off

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
One simple answer tednugent and that is the admech think older is better and to mess with anypart is sacralige and punishiable by death.
So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

In the warhammer universe, windows XP was the height of operating systems. It was hailed as the glorious gold standard and used up until the machine spirit and all that crazy jazz was discovered. Guess that also explains why they have knives, and not fancy light saber plasma blade.... super... vibro tech.. shenaniginizer weapons as their CC weapons. simple knife will do for just about everyone. Chainswords are OK, but knives are somehow just as good!

If it aint broke, don't fix it, works for me!

I would consider Windows XP the height of operating system.

The Eldar Falcon Grav tank is considered a tank and its not poorly designed.

Claas wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
One simple answer tednugent and that is the admech think older is better and to mess with anypart is sacralige and punishiable by death.
So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

In the warhammer universe, windows XP was the height of operating systems. It was hailed as the glorious gold standard and used up until the machine spirit and all that crazy jazz was discovered. Guess that also explains why they have knives, and not fancy light saber plasma blade.... super... vibro tech.. shenaniginizer weapons as their CC weapons. simple knife will do for just about everyone. Chainswords are OK, but knives are somehow just as good!

If it aint broke, don't fix it, works for me!

I would consider Windows XP the height of operating system.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious... friggin' internet text can't convey tone of voice

 Lord_Inquisitor_Doge wrote:

Claas wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Skullhammer wrote:
One simple answer tednugent and that is the admech think older is better and to mess with anypart is sacralige and punishiable by death.
So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

In the warhammer universe, windows XP was the height of operating systems. It was hailed as the glorious gold standard and used up until the machine spirit and all that crazy jazz was discovered. Guess that also explains why they have knives, and not fancy light saber plasma blade.... super... vibro tech.. shenaniginizer weapons as their CC weapons. simple knife will do for just about everyone. Chainswords are OK, but knives are somehow just as good!

If it aint broke, don't fix it, works for me!

I would consider Windows XP the height of operating system.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious... friggin' internet text can't convey tone of voice

Have you seen what came after? I would take XP any day over 10 and 8.
7 is pretty good though. Probably the last good microsoft OS.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Have you seen what came after? I would take XP any day over 10 and 8.
7 is pretty good though. Probably the last good microsoft OS.

Agreed. I'm still on 7 as I refuse to "upgrade" to either 8 or 10. Like you said, I'd rather go back to XP than "progress" onto either of those.

 Keep wrote:

but they would still, in reality, be ridiculously futuristic-looking in real life? Basically, the LRBT doesn't actually look like they portray it to

No, that's not what has been said. The LRBT looks like it looks. There is nothing along the lines of "but this is not it's true form".

Well... its clear that there is some translation convention going on with Gothic. We keep seeing stuff like 'Ultramarines' 'Adamant' 'Retribution' spelled on banners and transfers, and Gothic is not English or Latin, its just shown that way to us to communicate the difference between gothic and high gothic.
Which brings us to Iconography, because the seal of Ultramar is a U. Its unlikely the Gothic language includes a word for blue that also incorporates the idea of soldiery and superiority AND that word starts with a U, or that gothic even uses the Latin Alphabet.
So the seal of Ultramar is probably some other letter.

If such basic iconography is being 'translated' to make sense to us, why not the forms of the vehicles?

Of course the simplest solution is that gothic actually is English, albeit a futuristic derivative.

 Keep wrote:

This is over the span of 3 years of war - huge technological improvements and rollouts within 2 years. How, in 3,000 years of warfare, would the Imperium not be able to recognize simple concepts like welded armor being superior to riveted armor, or sloped armor being superior to vertical plates?

Religion... Ad Mech is a religious cult. Not a design bureau full of engineers. Sloped armor is already used. They use plasteel as armor. How would you know if that is even weldable? If it isn't, it makes perfect sense to rivet it...

Sloped armour is best against modern weapons.
Have you considered that blocky, squared armour is superior against directed energy weapons? That the advent of blasters and lasguns, multilasers and lascannons necessitated a different type of reactive armour, one that could dissipate energy rapidly?
'Reflec' armour, from inquisitor, incorporates reflective elements designed to lessen the power of lasbolts (the most common weapon in the Imperium) by reflecting the light and heat energy away.
Consider that as a tradeoff, they may be leaving themselves more vulnerable to conventional attacks of AT missile and shell (which the Eldar don't really use) to defeat the more common energy weapons of the day.

Note that plasmaguns and plasmacannon (which should in theory tear through tank armour) are only slightly more effective than autocannon shells.
Missile launchers fire exotic 'krak' implosive missiles and not heat or sabat.

Interesting suggestions.

Sloped armour would actually expose a greater surface area to energy weapons, which I suppose would cause more absorption of energy instead of allowing the beam to pass straight through with minimal absorption thus damage.

Furthermore, with reflective armour, vertical plates would send the beam back at the firer instead of sending it up towards the barrel of the main gun. That said, I've never seen a description of such a thing in 40k!

=Angel= wrote:Which brings us to Iconography, because the seal of Ultramar is a U. Its unlikely the Gothic language includes a word for blue that also incorporates the idea of soldiery and superiority AND that word starts with a U, or that gothic even uses the Latin Alphabet.
So the seal of Ultramar is probably some other letter. If such basic iconography is being 'translated' to make sense to us, why not the forms of the vehicles?

If somebody wants to believe that something displayed is something else entirely... feel free. But that is not canon. Gothic developed from 20th century languages, which means it uses letters we know for the most part. Heck, even in actual Gothic (300 AD) there are many words that sound very similar/ are recognizable if you know german. If the vehicles looks where not real, then how do you explain that the interactions with those vehicles described in novels match their look and feel? If you go and argue that they are just written so we can understand, the entire construct of 40k just falls apart... what's the purpose of creating the narrative/ doing the world building then, if nothing is actually how it would be?
But yes, IG tanks are actually flying bananas crewed by tiny monkeys. It's just that our 21th century knowledge hinders us to understand this logic.

Furthermore, with reflective armour, vertical plates would send the beam back at the firer instead of sending it up towards the barrel of the main gun.

Reflective armor could maybe work in space. But not on a tank. All the dust and dirt on the tank would render it ineffective. The laserbeam would heat up the dirt and destroy / blacken the mirror, which makes it even more vulnerable. It's also a pretty poor idea in terms of camoflage... you would see the sun's reflection on the tanks from very far away

=Angel= wrote:Missile launchers fire exotic 'krak' implosive missiles and not heat or sabat.

Is that your assumption or is that canon? Missile launchers shooting sabot would be pretty silly btw

 Keep wrote:

Furthermore, with reflective armour, vertical plates would send the beam back at the firer instead of sending it up towards the barrel of the main gun.

Good critique. Perhaps the mirrored surface could be coated in a futuristic super material that prevents dirt from settling on it? I'm pretty sure such things exist in the present day (used on those 'don't get dirty easy' clothes), so I see no reason why a much more advanced version could be incorporated into reflective armour in a fictional far future.... not that I've seen much suggestion it is done so in the far future.

I'm pretty sure such things exist in the present day (used on those 'don't get dirty easy' clothes)

Even expensive cars still get dirty windscreens, so no - not really. And keeping the mirrors inside a laser perfectly clean to prevent evaporating the coating is very important. If the Laser's housing is compromised by dust it will destroy it's own mirrors. Even with military tech (polished beryllium). So trying to coat an entire vehicle with perfect mirror surface AND trying to keep it perfectly clean is a ludicrous amount of efford. It'd be easier to just use ablative ceramic armor for heat protection...(not HEAT in this case). Failing that , it would Ipropably be "easier" to just use void shields or something like that then to try and keep an entire tank in perfect 99.999% reflective condition, with the added benefit that it also protects against other stuff.

And apparently the front of a Leman russ can still withold the most common AT lasweapons to a certain extend. You don't need complete immunity to survive a weapons shot.

 Keep wrote:
Even with military tech (polished beryllium). So trying to coat an entire vehicle with perfect mirror surface AND trying to keep it perfectly clean is a ludicrous amount of efford. It'd be easier to just use ablative ceramic armor for heat protection...(not HEAT in this case). Failing that , it would Ipropably be "easier" to just use void shields or something like that then to try and keep an entire tank in perfect 99.999% reflective condition, with the added benefit that it also protects against other stuff.

Aye. There might be a Forge World (or some Xeno species) that can produce a tank that will always stay 99.999% reflective, but why? The plain old Leman Russ works perfectly well in massed formations, trunding forward and annihilating the opposition with battlecannons. Many 40K vehicles also have shields for some sort, even some pretty cheap-looking xeno things. Not being shot in the first place is usually preferable to tanking the shot, according to many perfectly sane (and living) tank commanders.

Inquisitor wrote:Inquisitor SPECIAL ARMOUR TYPES
Ceramite
This is a ceramic-based armour which is
made to absorb and reflect heat. Armour
with a ceramite coating counts as being
D6 higher against the following weapon
types: plasma, melta and flamer (Roll
for each time the location is hit).

Reflective
Often called reflec armour, this contains
micro-crystals which help to redirect
and dissipate laser bolts, lessening the
intensity of their impact. Such armour
counts as being D6 higher against las
weapons (rolled each time a location is
hit).

Ablative
Usually layered on top of other armour,
this shatters or burns easily, dissipating
the energy of a blow or shot. Ablative
armour points are taken from the
Damage roll against that location like
normal armour, but each ablative point
only works once, and Armour points
deducted from Damage rolls are taken
off the locationís Armour value. Eg, a
location has 6 pts of armour, 3 pts of
which are ablative. It takes 7 pts of
damage, allowing 1 pt through. The
ablative armour is destroyed and the
location now only has 3 pts of armour.

Bonded
It is possible to have armour that
combines the effects of more than one
special armour type (eg, reflective &
ceramite). In this case all additional
effects are used. The extra properties of
bonded ablative armour are lost when its
last Armour point is destroyed.

Reflective armour isn't mirrored or shiny (necessarily) - it contains 'micro-crystals'. When the paint/dirt/dust is burned through by the energy weapon, the crystals come into play and the laser energy is both reflected and dissipated. Note that the above are all infantry armour upgrades that are available to units in inquisitor that might be used by guard infantry (Space marines have ceramite plates in the power armour as standard) and so are almost certainly used in vehicles.

Amusingly, shooting a leman russ at close with a lasgun might be fatal for the lasgunner, depending on how that energy is reflected!
That probably applies to bullet ricochets too, so I suppose I shouldn't be too excited.

=Angel= wrote:Note that the above are all infantry armour upgrades that are available to units in inquisitor

Those are upgrades for armor of special individualls (the name of the game is Inquisitor...). NOT an entire army. Inquisitors can also have power weapons, artifacts and other fancy weapons. Infantry... not. Maybe important Officers.

Ceramite and adamantium is the main feature of Space Marine armor powerarmor and vehicle armor). As SM vehicle armor is superior to IG vehicles for the same armor thickness, IG are unlikely to use either of those special armor things in their bulkware vehicles.

Also, crystals acting as reflector below a destroyed metal plate seems pretty bogus to me. Not only that, it's also kinda inferior to ceramics which protect against all weapons that cause heat damage. In addition - depending on HOW the ceramics are implemented they can protect against kinetic penetrators.

When the paint/dirt/dust is burned through

That is the point - if you heat something up, it doesnt just dissappear (it would need aloooot of energy for that). It heats up the surrounding and damages it that way. Doesnt matter if its crystals or a mirror... same deal. If surface is caked with dust/ remnants of burnt material - no reflection will happen.

 Keep wrote:

=Angel= wrote:Which brings us to Iconography, because the seal of Ultramar is a U. Its unlikely the Gothic language includes a word for blue that also incorporates the idea of soldiery and superiority AND that word starts with a U, or that gothic even uses the Latin Alphabet.
So the seal of Ultramar is probably some other letter. If such basic iconography is being 'translated' to make sense to us, why not the forms of the vehicles?

If somebody wants to believe that something displayed is something else entirely... feel free. But that is not canon. Gothic developed from 20th century languages, which means it uses letters we know for the most part. Heck, even in actual Gothic (300 AD) there are many words that sound very similar/ are recognizable if you know german. If the vehicles looks where not real, then how do you explain that the interactions with those vehicles described in novels match their look and feel? If you go and argue that they are just written so we can understand, the entire construct of 40k just falls apart... what's the purpose of creating the narrative/ doing the world building then, if nothing is actually how it would be?
But yes, IG tanks are actually flying bananas crewed by tiny monkeys. It's just that our 21th century knowledge hinders us to understand this logic.

That would be High Gothic (an Imperial term for the lingua franca of Humanity's ancient galactic federation) that is derived from old Earth languages. Low Gothic is just a catch-all term for the countless numbers of tongues in the Imperium, many of which (but not all) are bastardized dialects of High Gothic.


The language has changed so much just from the time of the Great Crusade, that it's considered an almost mystical and arcane language to the average joe, even if he/she is educated enough to understand even part of it.

It's also been stated that Low Gothic would be completely alien to a modern speaker of old Earth languages. And because of linguistic drift over tens of thousands of years, I suspect High Gothic wouldn't be completely understood, except in bits and pieces.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
And because of linguistic drift over tens of thousands of years, I suspect High Gothic wouldn't be completely understood, except in bits and pieces.

Icelandic is already pretty much drifted off from the other Scandinavian groups just from it being an isolated place that was hard to reach for so long. With my Swedish I understand almost nothing of it, though a bit more writing than spoken Icelandic. Hungarian is also related to my Finnish but that is from longer ago - you have to be a professor in linguistics to even explain how those two can possibly have a common root. And it's still not tens of thousands of years. High Gothic would be totally alien yabbering to us.

Spetulhu wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
And because of linguistic drift over tens of thousands of years, I suspect High Gothic wouldn't be completely understood, except in bits and pieces.

Icelandic is already pretty much drifted off from the other Scandinavian groups just from it being an isolated place that was hard to reach for so long. With my Swedish I understand almost nothing of it, though a bit more writing than spoken Icelandic. Hungarian is also related to my Finnish but that is from longer ago - you have to be a professor in linguistics to even explain how those two can possibly have a common root. And it's still not tens of thousands of years. High Gothic would be totally alien yabbering to us.

You make a good point. High Gothic was a combination of (or possible future dialects of) English, various European, and Asian-Pacific languages. Even if there was minimum drift, unless you spoke multiple modern languages, it would be mostly incomprehensible. With linguistic drift, the lack of understanding you mention would definitely be there.


I've read The Canterbury Tales in the original Late Middle English. It is (mostly) understandable to a speaker of Modern English (and it's dialects) if you read it carefully, but it's a good indication of how much English (as a whole) had changed in just over 650 years, even though it was written in what was called the London Dialect.


In just the last 60 years alone, thanks to the rise in mass communication and rapid transit, General American (neutral) is becoming the dominate dialect in American English. The New England, New Yorker, Midwestern, and Southern dialects are slowly dying out. That's not counting the various American Indian tongues, the Appalachian dialect, Creole, and Cajun French (all of which are also dying out). And you see a large influence of other languages in American English.

So, you are correct that it wouldn't necessarily take tens of thousands of years.


It's been mentioned that during Mankind's Dark Age of Technology, High Gothic was a second language for most during that period, rather than a first language. If people still spoke the old languages, they would also be evolved beyond what we have now. Japanese in the Third Millennium, for example, would be light years different than Japanese in the 25th Millennium (if Japanese isn't a dead language by then).

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
It's been mentioned that during Mankind's Dark Age of Technology, High Gothic was a second language for most during that period, rather than a first language.

Hmm... That is ofc also a point to consider. If it was a second language in the sense of Latin (or Greek) for the learned it might not have changed very much during that era - or at least not the written form.

 Psienesis wrote:
Because it's supposed to evoke a sense of WW1/WW2 in space. Hence, boxy, blocky tanks.

210mm of space-metal armor may be equivalent to 750 kilometers of WW2-era steel plate. Or more.

The Baneblade is actually a Light Tank, dating from the Golden Age of the Imperium. The Rhino, and all its variants, are based on a tractor from the same era.

40k tanks are slow, yes. Modern tanks are melted into a pile of steaming goo by any moron with a melta-pistol, Winner? 40k.

Hits the nail on the head. Remember that most tanks use ceramite, which for all intents and purposes is far superior to anything we have. The Rhino is actually made to be constructed by several types of material as well - steel to ceramite.

this is what WWI tanks look like:

Spetulhu wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
And because of linguistic drift over tens of thousands of years, I suspect High Gothic wouldn't be completely understood, except in bits and pieces.

Icelandic is already pretty much drifted off from the other Scandinavian groups just from it being an isolated place that was hard to reach for so long. With my Swedish I understand almost nothing of it, though a bit more writing than spoken Icelandic. Hungarian is also related to my Finnish but that is from longer ago - you have to be a professor in linguistics to even explain how those two can possibly have a common root. And it's still not tens of thousands of years. High Gothic would be totally alien yabbering to us.

Actually opposite, it's the mainland Scandinavians that have drifted - Icelanders speak Norse almost as it was a thousand years ago. Our languages resemble older Dutch due to trade in the 14th century.

Except when it comes to hard numbers, we know ceramite is gakky

Who says they are poorly designed? They are clearly effective in the environment they are in and against the adversaries they have so that sounds like they are well designed no?

It's like comparing the design of the T-33 to the Sherman to the Tiger. Different logistics, design criteria, and even materials available.

TheWanderer wrote:
Who says they are poorly designed? They are clearly effective in the environment they are in and against the adversaries they have so that sounds like they are well designed no?

Except they contradict huge amounts of known principles of tank design and the environments and adversaries they encounter are fully fictional. Sure, if something is stupid and works then it isn't stupid but that it works in this case is entirely made up and not supported by empirical evidence.

Rosebuddy wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:
Who says they are poorly designed? They are clearly effective in the environment they are in and against the adversaries they have so that sounds like they are well designed no?

Except they contradict huge amounts of known principles of tank design and the environments and adversaries they encounter are fully fictional. Sure, if something is stupid and works then it isn't stupid but that it works in this case is entirely made up and not supported by empirical evidence.

Do you have much empirical evidence of the alien weapons technology used against tanks? Why do you think any of todays principles of tank design would apply? just look at how much those principles have changed in 60 years!

I don't really see how we can say they are poorly designed.

They work on a huge host of different fuel sources with little or no issues - do any MBTs today?
They work with no really concern in ridiculous sub zero environments and arid desert environments both well beyond the conditions we experience on earth - can any MBTs today operate at the north pole one day and in the sahara the next?
They need to most rudimentary maintenance - seriously they get a whallop from a wrench and a new purity seal and some incense and they start working again
They can take hits from weird black hole creating super weapons and keep going a fair amount of the time.
but most importantly they are being made in a time when technological advancement and innovation is considered a religious crime and STILL do the job!

 Keep wrote:

Those are upgrades for armor of special individualls (the name of the game is Inquisitor...). NOT an entire army. Inquisitors can also have power weapons, artifacts and other fancy weapons. Infantry... not. Maybe important Officers.

Ceramite and adamantium is the main feature of Space Marine armor powerarmor and vehicle armor). As SM vehicle armor is superior to IG vehicles for the same armor thickness, IG are unlikely to use either of those special armor things in their bulkware vehicles.

Well, you say that, but guardsmen don't just use some standard issue flak. There are uniforms with ballistic weave and the heavier flak armour of the cadians. There are the exotic crystalline armour of the Vitrian Dragoons.
Inquistor just codifies (some) of the armour types available in the Imperium. Inquisitor deals with characters from High Magi of the Mechanicus to gutter scum and you get granularity that 40k doesnt provide. There's a difference between quality carapace armour and shoddy carapace armour.

 Keep wrote:

That is the point - if you heat something up, it doesnt just dissappear (it would need aloooot of energy for that). It heats up the surrounding and damages it that way. Doesnt matter if its crystals or a mirror... same deal. If surface is caked with dust/ remnants of burnt material - no reflection will happen.

The crystals are within the metal itself. When struck by laser energy, that energy is reflected and dissipated. The laser energy vaporises the dust, paint whatever in less than a millisecond and thereafter the reflec both distributes the laser energy within the whole surface (like an aluminium heat sink disperses heat) and redirects laser energy away from the tank (and not on the other side of the armour, you'd hope) robbing the las blast of killing power.

I'm not arguing that every guard tanks use relec specifically either- I'm stating that in a universe where direct energy weapons are commonplace and countermeasures exist, you can bet that the Imperium haven't simply strapped advanced laser weapons on a WW1 style tank. The Russ and its fellows follow patters laid down for millenia, designed by men and machines who did know what they were doing.

Another thing to consider is the limited technology Games Workshop had when they were making their first tank designs.

They only had the money for one medium size plastic frame when designing the Rhino, requiring lots of empty space on the sprue and largely 2d components. The consequence of this is a visual design that is very boxy and a tank that was made from two duplicates of the same sprue.