Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was watching a BatRep on TableTopTactics last night, and they came across an interesting rule interaction keep in mind that I don't play either army, so I may not have the exact name of the abilities correct, but I'll do the best I can. The battle was between AdMech and Skitarii vs. Craftworld Eldar. One of the AdMech Kataphrons hit a Wave Serpent with it Torsion gun, causing d3 penetrating hits. The Wave Serpent used its Serpent Shield to reduce this to attempt to reduce this to d3 glancing hit. The d3 result was 2. Here is where the rules interaction gets a little "iffy". Does this mean that the Wave Serpent suffers 2 glancing hits, or does it have to make two Serpent Shield saves to attempt to reduce each to a glancing hit? The way TableTopTactics ruled, one save reduced both to a glancing hit (for 2 HP). I think I would lean this way as well, since I interpret the d3 hull points as resulting from the penetrating round fracturing on impact. What do you think, Dakka?

Again, I have to dog in this particular fight since I don't play either army, but when I see an interesting rules conflict in a BatRep, I like to see how others interpret the rules just in case it ever does come up in a match I'm playing.

Fortunately for Vehicles, the damage causing Hull Point loss doesn't use the same confusing terms as what causes Wound loss.

Hits on Vehicles become either useless, Glancing Hits, or Penetrating Hits. Glancing Hits and Penetrating Hits become Hull Point loss. Penetrating Hits also cause rolls on the Vehicle Damage Result list.

If the Wave Serpent's Shield requires a Save per Penetrating Hit, then each of the D3 would have to be rolled. If it is rolled once per Attack, and then affecting each Penetrating Hit from there, then only one roll is needed.

If the Kataphron's attack caused Penetrating Hits to cause D3 Hull Points loss, then only one roll for the Wave Serpent Shield would be needed.

Still specific wording of each rule would need to be reviewed to be any more precise.

"Gravitic Contortion: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved Wound from this weapon, it loses D3 Wounds instead of only 1. Each time a vehicle model suffers a penetrating hit from this weapon, it loses D3 Hull Points instead of only 1."

It is therefore one penetrating hit that loses D3 hull points. One serpent shield save is needed to downgrade it to a glancing hit that loses D3 hull points instead of one.

beast_gts wrote:
"Gravitic Contortion: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved Wound from this weapon, it loses D3 Wounds instead of only 1. Each time a vehicle model suffers a penetrating hit from this weapon, it loses D3 Hull Points instead of only 1."

So you'd roll the shield first and then take either d3 HP from a penetrating hit or one for a glance?

Thank for posting the actual rule, beast. Based on that, I would say that the effect is definitely per-hit. Unless the Serpent Shield rules state otherwise, it seems like only one save was necessary. I also note that the rule states that the result is "d3 Hull Points" and not "d3 Penetrating Hits". That actually clears up a lot.

"All penetrating hits inflicted against the front or side armour of a vehicle equipped with a serpent shield are downgraded to glancing hits on a D6 roll of 2+."

So one serpent shield save, and if it's failed D3 hull points.

Spetulhu wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
"Gravitic Contortion: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved Wound from this weapon, it loses D3 Wounds instead of only 1. Each time a vehicle model suffers a penetrating hit from this weapon, it loses D3 Hull Points instead of only 1."

So you'd roll the shield first and then take either d3 HP from a penetrating hit or one for a glance?

Nothing states you substitute anything other than the word "glancing hit" into the sentence, so you still lose D3 hull points rather than 1, you just dont get to roll on the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
"Gravitic Contortion: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved Wound from this weapon, it loses D3 Wounds instead of only 1. Each time a vehicle model suffers a penetrating hit from this weapon, it loses D3 Hull Points instead of only 1."

So you'd roll the shield first and then take either d3 HP from a penetrating hit or one for a glance?

Nothing states you substitute anything other than the word "glancing hit" into the sentence, so you still lose D3 hull points rather than 1, you just dont get to roll on the table.

Except the rules. The serpent shield reduces the hit from the the weapon with gravitic contortion to a glancing hit, which means that it didn't suffer a penetrating hit and doesn't lose d3 hull points.

So Spetulhu is right, it's a single roll for the serpent shield and then d3 hull points on a fail and one hull point on the success.

beast_gts wrote:
"Gravitic Contortion: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved Wound from this weapon, it loses D3 Wounds instead of only 1. Each time a vehicle model suffers a penetrating hit from this weapon, it loses D3 Hull Points instead of only 1."

If the shield makes its save, the vehicle loses 1 hull point from a glancing hit. If the vehicle fails the save, it suffers a penetrating hit that causes d3 hull points.

Fragile wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
"Gravitic Contortion: Each time a non-vehicle model suffers an unsaved Wound from this weapon, it loses D3 Wounds instead of only 1. Each time a vehicle model suffers a penetrating hit from this weapon, it loses D3 Hull Points instead of only 1."

If the shield makes its save, the vehicle loses 1 hull point from a glancing hit. If the vehicle fails the save, it suffers a penetrating hit that causes d3 hull points.

The vehicle still loses D3 hp from one hit, regardless of whether it was downgraded or not. Unless the serpent shields wording is very specific, which I believe it is not.

 Whacked wrote:
The vehicle still loses D3 hp from one hit, regardless of whether it was downgraded or not. Unless the serpent shields wording is very specific, which I believe it is not.

If it changes the Penetrating Hit to a Glancing Hit before the Hull Points are resolved, the Vehicle is not suffering a Penetrating Hit, therefore, it would not lose D3 Hull Points.

What is the exact wording of the shielding?

Serpent Shield. All penetrating hits inflicted against the front or side armour of a vehicle equipped with a serpent shield are downgraded to glancing hits on a D6 roll of 2+.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing states you substitute anything other than the word "glancing hit" into the sentence, so you still lose D3 hull points rather than 1, you just dont get to roll on the table.

I know English is only my third language, but to me the Torsion Weapon rule would seem to state the d3 is conditional on suffering a Penetrating Hit from the weapon. If the shield roll is 2+ no such has been suffered.

Besides, if the d3 is just for the now non-existing Pen the vehicle should also lose 1HP to the Glancing hit it received, shouldn't it?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Whacked wrote:
The vehicle still loses D3 hp from one hit, regardless of whether it was downgraded or not. Unless the serpent shields wording is very specific, which I believe it is not.

If it changes the Penetrating Hit to a Glancing Hit before the Hull Points are resolved, the Vehicle is not suffering a Penetrating Hit, therefore, it would not lose D3 Hull Points.

I agree that is RAW, however it leads to a pretty silly interaction with Strength D weapons which results in Serpent Shields making Wave Serpents ridiculously resistant to Strength D.

Destroyer Weapon Attack Table for Vehicles:

2-5 - Solid Hit: The model suffers a Penetrating Hit that causes it lose D3 Hull Points instead of 1.

6 - Devastating hit: The Model suffers a Penetrating Hit that causes it lose D6+6 Hull Points instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit.

Serpent Shields downgrade Penetrating Hits to Glancing Hits on a 2+. That means you can fire a Strength D shot at a Wave Serpent, roll a 6 for a Devastating Hit, and the Wave Serpent has a 5 in 6 chance of only losing a single Hull Point from it.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Whacked wrote:
The vehicle still loses D3 hp from one hit, regardless of whether it was downgraded or not. Unless the serpent shields wording is very specific, which I believe it is not.

If it changes the Penetrating Hit to a Glancing Hit before the Hull Points are resolved, the Vehicle is not suffering a Penetrating Hit, therefore, it would not lose D3 Hull Points.

I agree that is RAW, however it leads to a pretty silly interaction with Strength D weapons which results in Serpent Shields making Wave Serpents ridiculously resistant to Strength D.

Destroyer Weapon Attack Table for Vehicles:

2-5 - Solid Hit: The model suffers a Penetrating Hit that causes it lose D3 Hull Points instead of 1.

6 - Devastating hit: The Model suffers a Penetrating Hit that causes it lose D6+6 Hull Points instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit.

Serpent Shields downgrade Penetrating Hits to Glancing Hits on a 2+. That means you can fire a Strength D shot at a Wave Serpent, roll a 6 for a Devastating Hit, and the Wave Serpent has a 5 in 6 chance of only losing a single Hull Point from it.

That's not how I'm reading that, Goon. To me, Serpent Shield means I just replace the words "Penetrating Hit" with "Glancing Hit", so the Wave Serpent still suffers D3 or D6+6 HP, it just doesn't have to risk Explodes/Weapon Destroyed results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nothing states you substitute anything other than the word "glancing hit" into the sentence, so you still lose D3 hull points rather than 1, you just dont get to roll on the table.

I know English is only my third language, but to me the Torsion Weapon rule would seem to state the d3 is conditional on suffering a Penetrating Hit from the weapon. If the shield roll is 2+ no such has been suffered.

Besides, if the d3 is just for the now non-existing Pen the vehicle should also lose 1HP to the Glancing hit it received, shouldn't it?

That seems to be the way the rules read, Spet. Now that I've seen both rules written out, I can see that TableTopTactics actually got the rule wrong. They reduced the 2 Penetrating Hits to 2 Glancing Hits when they should have reduced them to 1 Glancing Hit.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

If it changes the Penetrating Hit to a Glancing Hit before the Hull Points are resolved, the Vehicle is not suffering a Penetrating Hit, therefore, it would not lose D3 Hull Points.

I agree that is RAW, however it leads to a pretty silly interaction with Strength D weapons which results in Serpent Shields making Wave Serpents ridiculously resistant to Strength D.

Destroyer Weapon Attack Table for Vehicles:

2-5 - Solid Hit: The model suffers a Penetrating Hit that causes it lose D3 Hull Points instead of 1.

6 - Devastating hit: The Model suffers a Penetrating Hit that causes it lose D6+6 Hull Points instead of 1. No saves of any kind are allowed against this hit.

Serpent Shields downgrade Penetrating Hits to Glancing Hits on a 2+. That means you can fire a Strength D shot at a Wave Serpent, roll a 6 for a Devastating Hit, and the Wave Serpent has a 5 in 6 chance of only losing a single Hull Point from it.

A slightly different wording here, though. The Torsion Weapon is conditional on a Penetrating Hit being suffered. The Shield changes inflicted hits. Destroyer weapons are a little weird, though. They do not inflict it by their language, the target just suffers it.

In other words, Destroyer Weapons skip past the process of applying it, and just considers it applied, skipping when the Shield actually works.

I will admit that could just be temporally semantic, though.