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Not sure I like this as it really just hampers close combat units even more and makes hurting Necrons even harder (for anyone who is not Eldar/Tau/ Grav Spam Marines that is)
I would gladly replace ATSKNF with stubborn for example or better leadership for moral/pinning tests but otherwise you're just hurting the weaker codexes for no reason.

I think ATSKNF shouldn't ignore Fear entirely, and rather you just get to add a modifier to Fear tests. That way, ya know, Fear isn't just super useless.

 Torus wrote:
Not sure I like this as it really just hampers close combat units even more and makes hurting Necrons even harder (for anyone who is not Eldar/Tau/ Grav Spam Marines that is)
I would gladly replace ATSKNF with stubborn for example or better leadership for moral/pinning tests but otherwise you're just hurting the weaker codexes for no reason.

I disagree. One of the biggest problems with buffing assault is that, once you do so, the sweep rules become too good. Look at 30k, where there is no ATSKNF. having a 500 point unit swept because you got unlucky against a 150 point squad of marines fething sucks. Now, having there be free hits, but you still run, is a great way to fix the rule without over-nerfing it. Those units who are good in assault will still be fine (Orks get a fethload of free attacks, harlies get more with their special weapons, ect.) While a Tac squad who gets lucky won't be able to outright kill anything in the game without Fearless or ATSKNF.

To to OP, I have done something similar, if more drastic, in my musings for the rule. Though, I did make it that you fail to get away if your caught, and the chasing unit just piles in and attacks again, but it's very similar otherwise. I mainly nerfed the auto-pass and fear-immune bs, making it +2 leadership against those rules instead. Also, to keep the feel ogf the marines being the best at the fighting retreat, I made them always win ties for sweep rolls, meaning they get away SLIGHTLY easier than the other armies. I'm also planning on giving Chaos the opposite, and having them have some kind of "Relentless pursuit" rule. Might make the "catch the target even when they lose" a chaos thing tbh. Either way, I like what you've done!

 Swampmist wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Not sure I like this as it really just hampers close combat units even more and makes hurting Necrons even harder (for anyone who is not Eldar/Tau/ Grav Spam Marines that is)
I would gladly replace ATSKNF with stubborn for example or better leadership for moral/pinning tests but otherwise you're just hurting the weaker codexes for no reason.

I disagree. One of the biggest problems with buffing assault is that, once you do so, the sweep rules become too good. Look at 30k, where there is no ATSKNF. having a 500 point unit swept because you got unlucky against a 150 point squad of marines fething sucks. Now, having there be free hits, but you still run, is a great way to fix the rule without over-nerfing it. Those units who are good in assault will still be fine (Orks get a fethload of free attacks, harlies get more with their special weapons, ect.) While a Tac squad who gets lucky won't be able to outright kill anything in the game without Fearless or ATSKNF.

I mean, having a 300 point unit run off the table after rolling poorly on saves against shooting also stinks, but the shooty units don't have to spend 2-3 turns crossing the board to do their thing. Right now, shooting is heavily favored over assault. Taking away "real" sweeping advances makes it harder for assault armies to make up for lost time once they cross the table. Things like hormagaunts or orks potentially end up spending the rest of the game bogged down in combat against a unit they would normally have dispatched right away.

The main problems with ATSKNF are A) that there's so much of it and B) that it invalidates rules that seem to have become very popular to give out. Things like Fear and Soul Fright just aren't things you see. Which is sort of a shame.

I'm actually mostly okay with Fearless.

any changes you make to effect cc do little with gargantuans and strength d running amok. not to mention the ridiculous effects and modifiers you can stack and stack on your shooting meanwhile you cant do the same in CC

I think/agree that ATSKNF should be stubborn instead. It allows fear and other moral tests to play a part in the game while ensuring that marines who generally have pretty good leadership have a high chance of beating the test.

It's also easier to fail moral in assault, and you can mitigate running off the board by not being close the the board edge. Plus, if you run off the table from assault you're still destroyed, so its not like assault moral is actually weaker than shooting.

The system used to be that losing a combat with Fearless or ATSKNF units that failed their Leadership would suffer additional number of wounds equal to however much they lost by. I think they got rid of it because it was too complicated, but I thought it was pretty balanced. Only downside is that ATSKNF was often better than Fearless, though the same argument could still be made now.

 Swampmist wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Not sure I like this as it really just hampers close combat units even more and makes hurting Necrons even harder (for anyone who is not Eldar/Tau/ Grav Spam Marines that is)
I would gladly replace ATSKNF with stubborn for example or better leadership for moral/pinning tests but otherwise you're just hurting the weaker codexes for no reason.

I disagree. One of the biggest problems with buffing assault is that, once you do so, the sweep rules become too good. Look at 30k, where there is no ATSKNF. having a 500 point unit swept because you got unlucky against a 150 point squad of marines fething sucks. Now, having there be free hits, but you still run, is a great way to fix the rule without over-nerfing it. Those units who are good in assault will still be fine (Orks get a fethload of free attacks, harlies get more with their special weapons, ect.) While a Tac squad who gets lucky won't be able to outright kill anything in the game without Fearless or ATSKNF.

To to OP, I have done something similar, if more drastic, in my musings for the rule. Though, I did make it that you fail to get away if your caught, and the chasing unit just piles in and attacks again, but it's very similar otherwise. I mainly nerfed the auto-pass and fear-immune bs, making it +2 leadership against those rules instead. Also, to keep the feel ogf the marines being the best at the fighting retreat, I made them always win ties for sweep rolls, meaning they get away SLIGHTLY easier than the other armies. I'm also planning on giving Chaos the opposite, and having them have some kind of "Relentless pursuit" rule. Might make the "catch the target even when they lose" a chaos thing tbh. Either way, I like what you've done!

Assault definitely needs a buff, but you are right in that sweeping advance is already overpowered and could use a (minor) nerf. It's kind of ridiculous to see my 19 Warrior blob get swept by a single TWC after losing by 1 wound, and Warlords and their unit should be straight up immune to sweeping advance. It's just so anticlimactic to see someone take Slay the Warlord due to a failed morale check. Maybe something along the lines of a unit only being able to "sweep" a number of wounds equal to the total strength of the unit with bonuses for being MC/GMC, calvalry, etc.

It needs to stay in because that is the only way to kill 20 necron warriors unless you are tau/eldar. Maybe if the 20 warriors weren't so silly to begin with.

I may be the odd one out here, but I've never really known ATSKNF to be broken before, did something change with the new codex, or am I missing something else?

 Brennonjw wrote:
I may be the odd one out here, but I've never really known ATSKNF to be broken before, did something change with the new codex, or am I missing something else?

No, nothing changed, it just makes huge sections of rules completely worthless. Fear has no effect on half the armies in the game, they can fall back but not get swept, fall back but auto rally and react as if they never failed. Heck, there's even some DEldar weapons that straight up do not affect units with ATSKNF. It's a bit ridiculous. At least Fearless has some negatives, like you can't go to ground or declare "our weapons are useless." Maybe if it were a little bit less widespread it wouldn't be an issue, but every Space Marine unit and all of their variants have it.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I may be the odd one out here, but I've never really known ATSKNF to be broken before, did something change with the new codex, or am I missing something else?

No, nothing changed, it just makes huge sections of rules completely worthless. Fear has no effect on half the armies in the game, they can fall back but not get swept, fall back but auto rally and react as if they never failed. Heck, there's even some DEldar weapons that straight up do not affect units with ATSKNF. It's a bit ridiculous. At least Fearless has some negatives, like you can't go to ground or declare "our weapons are useless." Maybe if it were a little bit less widespread it wouldn't be an issue, but every Space Marine unit and all of their variants have it.

makes sense, but 9 times out of 10 don't people constantly say that most marine infantry units are generally gak?

 Yarium wrote:
The system used to be that losing a combat with Fearless or ATSKNF units that failed their Leadership would suffer additional number of wounds equal to however much they lost by. I think they got rid of it because it was too complicated, but I thought it was pretty balanced. Only downside is that ATSKNF was often better than Fearless, though the same argument could still be made now.

It was scrapped because the rule actually said: Do you have power armour? If yes, good job, get out of jail free. If no, remove the unit.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I may be the odd one out here, but I've never really known ATSKNF to be broken before, did something change with the new codex, or am I missing something else?

No, nothing changed, it just makes huge sections of rules completely worthless. Fear has no effect on half the armies in the game, they can fall back but not get swept, fall back but auto rally and react as if they never failed. Heck, there's even some DEldar weapons that straight up do not affect units with ATSKNF. It's a bit ridiculous. At least Fearless has some negatives, like you can't go to ground or declare "our weapons are useless." Maybe if it were a little bit less widespread it wouldn't be an issue, but every Space Marine unit and all of their variants have it.

makes sense, but 9 times out of 10 don't people constantly say that most marine infantry units are generally gak?

Yes, because they get shot by superior xeno guns or run over by cc deathstars.

Gotta bear in mind that some codexes like harlequins rely heavily on fear,pinning, moral and leadership tests. Fearless space marines negate alot of Harlequin's tricks and Atsknf negates about half of them. So modifiying those immediately effects how another codex is able to fight you.... especially if that codex is a bunch of T3 models with only 5+invuls

Talked about sweeping advance with a friend of mine today, and I honestly think that giving the winning side, if they successfully sweep, an extra round of combat with the opponent at WS1 would allow for design space to make assault better, and would not nerf the stuff that is already good in CC. it would make single models far worse at it, I don't think making MCs, GMCs and SHW slightly worse is really all that, and it nerfs melee msu which means that armies will have a harder time being both killy, and fast, assuming shooting is also nerfed.

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I may be the odd one out here, but I've never really known ATSKNF to be broken before, did something change with the new codex, or am I missing something else?

No, nothing changed, it just makes huge sections of rules completely worthless. Fear has no effect on half the armies in the game, they can fall back but not get swept, fall back but auto rally and react as if they never failed. Heck, there's even some DEldar weapons that straight up do not affect units with ATSKNF. It's a bit ridiculous. At least Fearless has some negatives, like you can't go to ground or declare "our weapons are useless." Maybe if it were a little bit less widespread it wouldn't be an issue, but every Space Marine unit and all of their variants have it.

Space marines practically never can declare "our weapons are useless." They are armed with S6 krak grenades. Unless they are getting assaulted by a T10 unit, they pretty much have to fight if they can't flee. And they only can flee from the T10 unit if they don't have meltabombs, powerfists or something of the sort.

Traditio wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I may be the odd one out here, but I've never really known ATSKNF to be broken before, did something change with the new codex, or am I missing something else?

No, nothing changed, it just makes huge sections of rules completely worthless. Fear has no effect on half the armies in the game, they can fall back but not get swept, fall back but auto rally and react as if they never failed. Heck, there's even some DEldar weapons that straight up do not affect units with ATSKNF. It's a bit ridiculous. At least Fearless has some negatives, like you can't go to ground or declare "our weapons are useless." Maybe if it were a little bit less widespread it wouldn't be an issue, but every Space Marine unit and all of their variants have it.

Space marines practically never can declare "our weapons are useless." They are armed with S6 krak grenades. Unless they are getting assaulted by a T10 unit, they pretty much have to fight if they can't flee. And they only can flee from the T10 unit if they don't have meltabombs, powerfists or something of the sort.

Or AV13+ walkers

CrownAxe wrote:Or AV13+ walkers

If you're using an imperial knight and are complaining about ATSKNF...

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:Or AV13+ walkers

If you're using an imperial knight and are complaining about ATSKNF...

Knights aren't the only av13 walker in the game dude

See Ironclad Dreadnaughts, Gork\Morkanoughts, those are actually the only ones I can think of but I know their are more.

Soul Grinder is AV13 on the front iirc. As are Contemptors and maybe Furiosos and Librarian Dreads.

Does the Triarch Stalker have Quantum Shielding? If so it does too.

I think that ATSKNF is one of the most tactful, fun, fluffy SM rules out there. It is the best non-OP rule out there. If you want to fix something try fixing how much hit and run they can get

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think that ATSKNF is one of the most tactful, fun, fluffy SM rules out there. It is the best non-OP rule out there. If you want to fix something try fixing how much hit and run they can get

There's nothing wrong with hit&run.. I mean come on let's look at the math
Solitaire with fleet blitzes 5d6 on round 5, runs 1d6, charges 2d6 and then hit and runs 3d6
That's ONLY 11d6 movement

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Soul Grinder is AV13 on the front iirc. As are Contemptors and maybe Furiosos and Librarian Dreads.

Old Furioso was, I remember attempting a ''our weapons are useless'' on the turn it charged my Kriegsmen so that the friendly SOB could fire all its melta at it.

It failed at they all died, but the dread was blown up on the previous turn, and it was a large apoc game where units would respawn after a turn or two, the idea was to kill the dread, but not the pod it came in, so the BA player would be forced to walk back his dread from far way elsewhere, it worked in the end.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Knights aren't the only av13 walker in the game dude

Fair enough. I nonetheless stand by what I previously said, i.e., that it's "practically never" an issue. Practically never is not the same as never.

Seriously consider all of the games that you've played against a space marines player. In how many of those games did the marines run away screaming: "OUR WEAPONS ARE USELESS! FLEE!!!!!"?

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Knights aren't the only av13 walker in the game dude

Fair enough. I nonetheless stand by what I previously said, i.e., that it's "practically never" an issue. Practically never is not the same as never.

Seriously consider all of the games that you've played against a space marines player. In how many of those games did the marines run away screaming: "OUR WEAPONS ARE USELESS! FLEE!!!!!"?

A lot because I play Soul Grinders

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think that ATSKNF is one of the most tactful, fun, fluffy SM rules out there. It is the best non-OP rule out there. If you want to fix something try fixing how much hit and run they can get

It's not so much that ATSKNF is OP or broken. It's that it makes so many other options invalid. See above about harlequin and dark eldar weapons, any model with Fear, etc. If marines were as rare a sight in the meta as, say, Tyranids, ATSKNF would be a quirky, interesting exception tot he normal morale rules. As is, ATSKNF basically translates to, "So half the armies in the game will be completely immune to these rules and wargear options, so never take those option if you can avoid it." Couple that with the fact that quite a few things that don't have ATSKNF are instead Fearless, and you have kind of a disappointing mix.