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In order for terminators to be worth their points one of two things need to happen to them, neither of which should increase their already high points cost.

One: Their base Toughness is increased to 5.

OR

Two: They be give a second wound per model (making them W:2 models)

In my view, doing one OR the other would get them closer to being worth their points. I personally favor making them T:5 models but there are merits to the additional wound instead.

You do that, and it makes them a bit more viable and worth their fairly high points per model cost.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Make Storm Bolters S5 (I'm the most vocal supporter of this change in the forum I believe), make the TH/SS upgrade just 5 points again, allow a minimum unit of Tactical Terminators to take two heavy weapons, and give Assault Terminators...I dunno, something else too.

Bam, Terminators are at least maybe mediocre somewhat.

You could make stormbolters shred as well. Two heavy weapons would help, even though those choices are rather weak, imo. Assault cannons need to be massed like scatterlasers to be effective, and the Imperium just can't do that because reasons.

Two wounds/ model; special issue ammo and two heavy weapons per 5 tactical terminators. I'd be alright with taking them back to 40/model if they came stock with 5+ fnp as well.

What if Terminators could reroll armor saves against things with AP4 or more?

That would be something.

Meh.

As a CSM player I sometimes use an unmarked Terminator sorcerer with 5 Termies marked with Slannesh and pairs of lightning claws.

use Biomancy.

Get endurance as I do..

2+ with 4+ FnP and Eternal Warrior.

Then enjoy all the AP:3 at Int 5..

Only time I've had real, bad problems was with en-massed D-weapons from Waith.

And the Loyalist version would STILL be better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And the Loyalist version would STILL be better.

Aaaaaand I stopped comparing Codex to codex a while back, why? because why bother? Or an even better question Why are you comparing Terminators to Terminators when you should be comparing them to the entirety of the Eldar Codex?

/Thread, because these threads always end up escalating to comparing to Netlists X, Y and Z.

What you should be asking is the following points:

1) Does it have a role to play in your army? Yes. it butchers entire units in combat with little to no resistance.

2) Will it be ok in your area? Yes my terminators have been known to break the backs of units and has a maliciously good rep of sucess.

Done. Tested and approved. People can complain all they like on the forums but thats regressive and unproductive, we have been given the hand and it's utter but we have made our statements and if people were to ask what went wrong with GW if it were ever to burn down so to say, then we can point them to the reams of these threads but atm on the table how good is a complaint post on the board?

I refuse to shelve my CSM.

I refuse to abandon units to the isles of Ebay if I like 'em.

I set myself to be the underdog in this age of a bad CSM codex as I realize its the hand I've been dealt.

And you know what? I got good with them. How did I get good? because I stopped paying attention to what others had and what I didn't and I started paying attention to what I had and what what commonly seen in only my area. True it cost my my liver, right arm and the entirety of the 27th future generation with bits from FW here and there but by the Warp I got there.

Now I'm looking at Orks and what I can do with them with my current collection and I'm eyeing up Tyranids to see what possibilities I can draw up in my area.

Not saying GW are perfect by a long shot but times are good for me, but I think people need to look at what they can do in their area rather than just, and usually only complain on threads about how traitors aren't as loyalists. Yes they are, so what are you going to do about it? I'm going to continue to wage bitter war on the table instead of shelving them as you hear most people do on forums.

You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.

A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.

The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.

A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.

The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.

Except these threads usually end up comparing Terminators to likes likes of Eldar and Co. in hope of explaining why Terminators are bad and then ends up developing and becoming a thread about how/why Eldar are so good. Its happened before and will continue to happen.

Throwing AP 3 claws at AP 2 Hammernators (or any terminators tbh) always ends up badly, hence why no one does it, leading me back to my first question. Does it have a role in your force? Yup. Throwing it at a unit that it won't end up killing and at best locking it up in combat never ends well, but it does one hell of a job of clearing up objectives where troops are. Usually the tipping point as people forget that this isn't just an all-out killing game and has levels and scopes of depth because the usual game is Maelstrom games and therefore objective-based, so storming that objective that your opponent thought was safe ends up wining a game. Suddenly that unit just got very good because comparing points is nothing compared to a victory within a game.

And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.

You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.

You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?

Because Math is not the game.

Math is an aspect that we use to simulate the game.

Forums are just too comfortable with averages and what they see in the top tiers in ITC's and LVO's to use as ammo to fuel fire, and whilst I agree I do partake in this at times I have my own fuel more fired up by my own experiences than what happened in some distant tourney in restrictions my own area does not use atm. If anyone plays the game then they know as well as I do that the dice will always surprise you and that averages are a lot less seen than to be believed.

Again, this has already been debated why Terminators are viewed as bad for the past two pages, then usually these threads end up developing to comparing to gold-plated hand grenades. We know those marines inside that marine Armour are better than Terminators but that does not mean that Terminators are outright bad, to which is why I disagree because this is an open forum and not some sort of Stalin-esque FB page where you must only be positive about GW or 40k. I disagree that Terminators are outright bad because you can do so much with them when you include the levels of scope that this game actually requires than just outright kill 'em all averages that the internet is too comfortable with these days.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
So maybe it's because I've been out of the game for a while and the metas changed, but no one seems to bring termies to the table anymore and people rip them open online, wondering what's with the changes adittude towards the bulky marines?

It's not a "change in attitude". Terminators have generally been considered crap for at least 2-3 editions now.

They're WAY overpriced, they're WAY too squishy, and they're WAY too penalized for being what they are.

Terminators need the following things to compete with the Centurion(aka "Terminator Plus"):
2W on base models, 3 on Vet. Sergeants
T5
Re-rolls on armor saves against anything AP4 or higher.
Storm Bolters need to be given Special Issue Ammunition and turned into a minimum of 4-5 shots
2 Heavy Weapons per 5 Marines rather than 10.
Options for Combi-Weapons on all models rather than just Vet. Sergeants

Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase

xlDuke wrote:
Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase

When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
So maybe it's because I've been out of the game for a while and the metas changed, but no one seems to bring termies to the table anymore and people rip them open online, wondering what's with the changes adittude towards the bulky marines?

It's not a "change in attitude". Terminators have generally been considered crap for at least 2-3 editions now.

They're WAY overpriced, they're WAY too squishy, and they're WAY too penalized for being what they are.

Terminators need the following things to compete with the Centurion(aka "Terminator Plus"):
2W on base models, 3 on Vet. Sergeants
T5
Re-rolls on armor saves against anything AP4 or higher.
Storm Bolters need to be given Special Issue Ammunition and turned into a minimum of 4-5 shots
2 Heavy Weapons per 5 Marines rather than 10.
Options for Combi-Weapons on all models rather than just Vet. Sergeants

Congrats, now terminator cost at least 70 points. For 35/model, T5, 2W special issue ammo.and two special weapons per 5 models is enough. Maybe give em 5+ FNP if you want them on par with current power creep, but they don't need everything and the kitchen sink to be worth the price of a tyranid warrior...

 Kanluwen wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase

When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.

It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.

xlDuke wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase

When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.

It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.

Our previous codex ( you know the 4th edition one ) allowed them to buy a 5++ for 5 pnts :\

but there is so much more wrong with those MANZ.

-They cant have any other close combat weapon aside from a chain fist and they don't have cool shooting weapon options aside from a crappy version of a combi weapon.
The kit even comes with a cool Telleporta weapon that none of them can use :\
-They are LD 7!
-They are slow and P.
-Yes they are W2 but almost all ap2 weapons are at least S8.

Most players consider them one of the best units in the ork codex, but this tells us more about the codex then about MANZ

xlDuke wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase

When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.

It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.

Take a look at the actual Mega Nobz models. There's large chunks of exposed flesh.

Also, you can't just throw out the whole "My Mega Nobz need to be buffed too" when compared to C: SM or C: DA or C: BA Terminators.
Mega Nobz are minimum unit sizes of 3, come with grenades, and have a few other goodies that boost up their usefulness.

All the Terminators I mentioned are minimum unit sizes of 5, have no grenades, and really are just in the Codex because they've been there forever.

 happygolucky wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.

You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?

Because Math is not the game.

Math is an aspect that we use to simulate the game.

Forums are just too comfortable with averages and what they see in the top tiers in ITC's and LVO's to use as ammo to fuel fire, and whilst I agree I do partake in this at times I have my own fuel more fired up by my own experiences than what happened in some distant tourney in restrictions my own area does not use atm. If anyone plays the game then they know as well as I do that the dice will always surprise you and that averages are a lot less seen than to be believed.

Again, this has already been debated why Terminators are viewed as bad for the past two pages, then usually these threads end up developing to comparing to gold-plated hand grenades. We know those marines inside that marine Armour are better than Terminators but that does not mean that Terminators are outright bad, to which is why I disagree because this is an open forum and not some sort of Stalin-esque FB page where you must only be positive about GW or 40k. I disagree that Terminators are outright bad because you can do so much with them when you include the levels of scope that this game actually requires than just outright kill 'em all averages that the internet is too comfortable with these days.

You're using "L2P" as a crutch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.

There is indeed parts of the Ork that are shown beneath the armour and that's probably what the 1-in-6 chance of failure represents with the 2+ save, similar to the 'hit in the joints or gorget' that is often the fluff explanation of terminator armour failing. They come with grenades but can only equip unwieldy power klaws so it doesn't matter, and I'm not sure what other goodies you mean if you're talking about wargear. Mega Nobz were my example but not my point, if Terminators get a buff then other chapters, CSM and Ork versions should as well along with any other armies that have something similar.

No one here is talking about changes to minimum unit size or adding grenades to their wargear, both of which are great and down-to-earth ideas to improve them especially alongside a points reduction and extra heavy/special weapons. We've already got into buffing them with stats that would make most HQ's envious which in my opinion isn't necessary.

Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.

C'mon dude, can't you see what he is saying? Internal balance=/=external balance, Chaos don't have the same options as Loyalists hence units are priced differently based on the role they play within an army. You shouldn't compare unit to unit between codexes without looking extensively at the rest of the list. Chaos have little access to 2+ Sv's, making the 2+ svs they DO get a little more expensive, probably not what they deserve but you can understand the logic behind the decision. Chaos Terminators also start off cheaper than Loyalists therefore pay more to be upgraded to a similar level. It's the same concept behind Fantasy's Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard, very similar units but Tomb Guard are more expensive because the TK army syngerised better with them.

Also MoS terminators are better then loyalist terminators if both have Lightning Claws against I4 opponents, which is statistically a large category. So there is that.

I think the issue with termies is that they don't do anything well, their not hard to kill with shooting, they don't represent a serious threat in close combat and they've no way of getting there! In the fluff they teleport in then wreck/get wrecked but that isn't what they do on the table instead they give up cheap VPs. What I'd like to see to be more in keeping with what their like in the fluff is either re-roll armour saves (their armour is supposed to be incredible) or allow them to assault from deep strike. People would say i
that is OP but then people always like to bitch about better rules! I'm even saying this as a guy who wouldn't run them even with those rules

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And the Loyalist version is still doing that better, yet those still aren't taken.

You type a lot just to try and say "Git gud L2P". If a unit is mathematically bad in the first place, what makes you think the inferior version is worth even talking about?

Because Math is not the game.

Math is an aspect that we use to simulate the game.

Forums are just too comfortable with averages and what they see in the top tiers in ITC's and LVO's to use as ammo to fuel fire, and whilst I agree I do partake in this at times I have my own fuel more fired up by my own experiences than what happened in some distant tourney in restrictions my own area does not use atm. If anyone plays the game then they know as well as I do that the dice will always surprise you and that averages are a lot less seen than to be believed.

Again, this has already been debated why Terminators are viewed as bad for the past two pages, then usually these threads end up developing to comparing to gold-plated hand grenades. We know those marines inside that marine Armour are better than Terminators but that does not mean that Terminators are outright bad, to which is why I disagree because this is an open forum and not some sort of Stalin-esque FB page where you must only be positive about GW or 40k. I disagree that Terminators are outright bad because you can do so much with them when you include the levels of scope that this game actually requires than just outright kill 'em all averages that the internet is too comfortable with these days.

You're using "L2P" as a crutch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.

Chaos Terminator w/Mark of Slaanesh + paired Lightning claws = 42pts a pop. (Champion = 57! pts as he must buy his Lightning claws from the armoury at a huge mark-up!!)
For a unit of 5 you're spending 234pts, while Loyalists only spend 175pts for the exact same unit, bar the I5 that the MoS confers.

However, Loyalists get better delivery systems, either through the variant Land Raiders or accurate Deep Strike. And can also give the unit far better buffs with various IC's such as a Termie Chaplain.
For CSM's to gain the benefit of an attached IC, we end up being forced to take only 4 Terminators, since we lack proper transport capacity in our sole Land Raider option. As well as the fact that our Chaplain variant has 0 access to a 2+ save.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Look at it like this:
Loyalist Assault Terminators at base are 175. With the same loadout and with MoS your Chaos ones are nearing 40 a pop. The only thing you're doing better is charging T4 3+ outside of cover for the points. THEN you look at the benefits Loyalists get, and then you realize how silly your statement sounds.

C'mon dude, can't you see what he is saying? Internal balance=/=external balance, Chaos don't have the same options as Loyalists hence units are priced differently based on the role they play within an army. You shouldn't compare unit to unit between codexes without looking extensively at the rest of the list. Chaos have little access to 2+ Sv's, making the 2+ svs they DO get a little more expensive, probably not what they deserve but you can understand the logic behind the decision. Chaos Terminators also start off cheaper than Loyalists therefore pay more to be upgraded to a similar level. It's the same concept behind Fantasy's Tomb Guard vs Grave Guard, very similar units but Tomb Guard are more expensive because the TK army syngerised better with them.

Also MoS terminators are better then loyalist terminators if both have Lightning Claws against I4 opponents, which is statistically a large category. So there is that.

Except, for their price, they're not survivable or killy for a 2+. Even in the codex by itself it isn't a unit worth taking.

 Kanluwen wrote:

xlDuke wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
Yeah if they gift those sorts of stats I'll be looking forward to my Mega Nobz getting W3 (W4 on Boss Nobz), T5, twin-linked rokkit launchas, re-rolling AP4 or worse for no price increase

When Mega Nobz are wearing more than just scraps of armor plating, we'll talk.

It's not 'eavy armour, it's mega armour and it's the best personal armour a mek can build. Not quite so clever as tactical dreadnaught armour, but that's represented by a lack of invulnerable save and deep strike ability and it still costs as much as an assault terminator. I was highlighting the fact that there isn't anything inherently wrong with Terminators and their equivalents (except being overpriced) and that it would be a bit unfair to buff Space Marine Terminators and not think about the effect it has on similar units.

Take a look at the actual Mega Nobz models. There's large chunks of exposed flesh.

Also, you can't just throw out the whole "My Mega Nobz need to be buffed too" when compared to C: SM or C: DA or C: BA Terminators.
Mega Nobz are minimum unit sizes of 3, come with grenades, and have a few other goodies that boost up their usefulness.

All the Terminators I mentioned are minimum unit sizes of 5, have no grenades, and really are just in the Codex because they've been there forever.

Lol, yes they have assault grenades...

Now lets look at their cool close combat weapon options.
- Powerklaw (unwieldy)
- Killsaw (unwieldy)
They don't have any other close combat options at all. No storm shields, no thunderhammers, no lightning claws.
So yeah those grenades and cool upgrades make a world of difference ; )

Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.

Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:

1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.

2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.

3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).

Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).

With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.

Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.

Reduce the cost of each model to 30 points base, add the ability for each to take one heavy or one special weapon at cost, and then add +4 FNP. Much better unit.

Terminators were terrible even in 2nd ed. Only CSM terminators were good b/c of their guns. They've NEVER been good for loyalists. Ever.