Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.

Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:

1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.

2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.

3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).

Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).

With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.

Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.

Exalted!

Terminators essentially suffer from the same problem that the entire Chaos Marine codex has suffered from; the game has long since changed & evolved past them, yet Terminators stubbornly refuse to change at all. (or rather, GW refuses to admit that Termies need to change & evolve with the times!)

What I'd honestly do for them;
- Reduce base cost to 30pts/model.
- T5/2++
- Add +1W to the Vet Sergeant (he's a damned Veteran Sergeant for feth's sake!) Note I'd also make this change codex wide, so ALL Vet Sergeants & Aspiring Champions become W2 characters. (it would also give more of a reason to spend the extra pts to upgrade to Veteran status)
- Reduce unit size to 3+ for SW's, DA's, BT's, GK's & CSM's. Codex adherent Chapters remain 5-10.
- 3-5 strong unit may take 0-1 Heavy weapon. 6+ may take 0-2 Heavy weapons.
- Change Storm Bolter to S4/ap5, Shred, Salvo 2/3. Salvo rule itself changes to always use the maximum range, moving units may only fire the lesser number of shots, may not shoot & assault in the same turn. Relentless units ignore the latter two penalties. (ie: always shoot max shots + can shoot & assault same turn)
- Combi-weapons remain only accessible to SW & CSM versions.

Why are people acting like they were ever good?

Martel732 wrote:
Why are people acting like they were ever good?

Because they were decent against non-Eldar armies in 3rd, and 3.5ed + 4th ed Loyalist versions were great in 4th when they had access to cheap Veteran skills. (double Ass-cans w/Tank-hunter were disgustingly good back in the day!)

I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.

Tank-hunting Assault cannons came at the same time that the cannons themselves got a huge power boost to Heavy 4 + Rending.

It essentially gave Vanilla Marines & Templars 5th ed GK's Psycannons vs. vehicles, back when vehicles in general cost an arm and a leg. Only Necrons and their monolith laughed at them.
And iirc, that squad was only 250pts total, since back then the Assault cannon was still just 20pts, +2pts/model for the Vet skill.

Edit: Rending itself was also better, since it hurt infantry on the To-hit rolls of 6, and auto-wounded with no armour save.

Martel732 wrote:
Why are people acting like they were ever good?

Cough paladins cough

I used the codex space marine strike force ultra formation today. FOr those who dont know it has 20 terminators base (2 squads of standard ones and 2 squads of assault) and 1 termy captain who can be replaced by Lysander.

I played one game with them and in another game a played with assault centurions.

The standard terminators deep struck on the right side of the field and did some decent damage with their krak missle shooting and mass storm bolter fire, but all they did was wipe out some minor enemy units. The Assault terminators on the other hand fell victim to their classic weakness of being vulnerable to mass shooting. Being only toughness 4 means they are wounded easily and they will eventually fail their 2 up armor or 3 up invuln. They didnt feel like a threat at all and while I did win the game it was only because my opponent was not bringing a competitive list on top of being a Tyranid player.

On the other the assault centurion game was a slaughter. Centurions just ran over anything and everything they touched with their superior toughness and wounds in addition to having S10 armorbane attacks at initiative. They just totally blew the terminators out of the water in terms of effectiveness and even in terms of survivability. Yeah termies get a 3 up or 5 up invuln, but cents get t5 and 2 wounds.

If I were to buff terminators (which I think they need to be buffed) I would give them t5 and have the sarge have 2 wounds on top of the unit having fear. They are the ELITES of the space marines. I do believe that title alone would strike fear into the hearts of their enemies.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.

As a guy who still plays 4th edition, they still have a strong place in any list, there just isn't the massed firepower to take them down quickly anymore. And as for them being mediocre, even a mediocre unit can perform well when used correctly in that edition, because there just wasn't the huge disparity between units in the same codex.

The big problem is that they stayed the same, while the crazy power creep passed them by a couple of editions ago. Which considering long-standing fluff (and how that actually impacts game mechanics) is insane.

Just too many hot new crazy things being released. Updated terminators with increased oprions could have been released instead of Centurions, easily.

Terminators mainly lack a cheap means of transportation. For their points they aren't terrible (if you get them into close combat) but the issue remains of how your going to get them up the field in one piece. Deepstriking is risky and opens you to being shot in the face when you stand around in your post teleport haze. Landraiders cost an arm and a leg for what amounts to a AV14 rolling assault box. Compare them to something like Meganobz who function in a very similar manner but the real factor that makes Meganobz great compared to Terminators is that you can throw them in a 35 point trukk (or a pricier Battlewagon that is still half the cost and nearly twice the transport capacity of a Landraider) to zoom down the battlefield and assault out from the vehicle. The entire MANz Missile tactic works because your throwing MSU Meganobz down field in fast and cheap transports into the enemy's face forcing a response from the enemy. Terminators could function in a very similar manner and yet they can't because their only means of transportation is either high risk of suicide and reserve reliant or so expensive that the only way to make the transport cost effective is to take a big squad of terminators to justify the 250 point box, Now your sitting on a 600 point unit which is 1/3 of your entire army.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.

A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.

The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.

Point of contention: Not better in every manner. Chaos Landraiders have dozer blades, which is a way in which chaos land raider terminators are better. Chaos are also better at exploiting fearless characters joining units which have gone to ground (i.e. shooting/charging despite having g2g the previous round).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.

Assault Terminators weren't bad in 5th. Fearless Wound mechanics made them effective against Orks, Daemons etc because Terminators nearly always won the CC even if they didn't kill that many models in actual combat.

I've been out for the last couple editions, but how would they be if they had a special rule that allowed them to act normally in the turn they deepstrike?

Unfortunately in true GW fashion soon everyone would have that skill, making Terminators surpassed again.....

Backfire wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree. They were at best mediocre in 4th. I won't speak for 5th.

Assault Terminators weren't bad in 5th. Fearless Wound mechanics made them effective against Orks, Daemons etc because Terminators nearly always won the CC even if they didn't kill that many models in actual combat.

They were still bad.

 General Kroll wrote:
Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.

I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.

I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.

But..

The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.

Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.

Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.

Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.

so you beolieve in a race to the bottom to solve all our problems? perhaps ud like to make power armoured marines free, i hear people dont like paying for things XD

nareik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You compare Terminators to Terminators because they're based around the same kinda unit, you walnut.

A Loyalist version of what you're doing would be superior in every manner. You'd have better access to mobility (more Land Raider variants, Storm Ravens for those with a death wish, Teleport Homers), have access to formations (which means not taking up an Elite slot), and then access to Chapter Tactics as you feel like.

The only manner a CSM Terminator ends up better is when you take 3-4 of them with Combi-Melta or Plasma and give them Axes.

Point of contention: Not better in every manner. Chaos Landraiders have dozer blades, which is a way in which chaos land raider terminators are better. Chaos are also better at exploiting fearless characters joining units which have gone to ground (i.e. shooting/charging despite having g2g the previous round).

Dozer Blades aren't worth the worst version of the Land Raider. You're literally grasping at straws.

1st Company Task Force Terminators also gain Fearless, so that isn't something totally exclusive either. The other units aren't even a tax because you were likely to bring them anyway!

We're looking at land raiders as a delivery system, not as a gun wagon. The ability to get there is more important than their weaponry in this case. No straws in my hand.

I think you are missing my point about fearless. You don't want the unit to be fearless, as that removes their ability to go to ground. You want a fearless independent character to join the unit AFTER they've gone to ground as this cancels go to ground, letting the unit shoot and charge normally despite having claimed an improved cover save. Is this not something you've ever done/had done to you?

No, you don't want Terminators to be swept, and that's all that will happen to the CSM ones without characters.

Regarding going to ground, Terminators don't benefit a lot from cover anyway because they have a 5++, or you cast Sanctuary for a slightly better one. TAGK once again show how much superior they are to the CSM ones.

FYI, fearless doesn't stop loyalists from being swept as they also have ATSKNF. On these models fearless mainly stops them being TRAPPED!, pushed off the board, safely getting out of losing combats and G2Ging. On balance fearless isn't much of a buff as it is for other units.

On a d6 system a +1 modifier is a big deal, especially when you don't have to sacrifice shooting or charging to get it. Find a crater behind a tank trap and you're golden .

Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit - but it is cool, it is in my army. Haha, love it.

OP They've been hamstrung by bad stats ever since the rule overhaul in 3rd ed, and very little has been done by GW to fix it.

They need 4+ invul save, 5+ is pants with the volume of AP2 firepower out there. Storm bolters are also fairly mediocre and need more shots.

Classic example of great model, bad rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grumblewartz wrote:
[spoiler]
Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit

Lol. Agree, it can be one or the other, never both.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why are people acting like they were ever good?

Cough paladins cough

Or Red Butchers in 30k. Decent unit.

 wuestenfux wrote:

Or Red Butchers in 30k. Decent unit.

There's a lot of good terminator variants for 30k. All the 2W ones like Red Butchers or Firedrakes. The sheer amount of S8 AP3 rockets coming out of Iron Warriors terminators is pretty spectacular, too.

Then again, there's bad ones like the Phoenix Guard or whatever the Alpha Legion ones are called.

Proof that all terminators really need is increased firepower loadouts, or 2W apiece.

@Grumblewartz: It is pretty funny. My favorite part about that logic is the same people are the ones who complain that GW can't balance their codices.

Traditio wrote:
In 40k, specialization is the name of the game if you want your units to be effective. Terminators are 35 ppm and don't do any one thing extraordinarily well. You're better off using honor guard or something.

Thats not entirely true, Chaos Terminators Termicide and die in droves quite efficiently It's almost guaranteed!

Start by letting them buy a second assault cannon and see what that does. No point decrease. No new equipment.

In order to make termies good let them assault the turn they deep strike let them deep strike turn 1 with no scatter (hell teleport homers right) make them I5 and give them sweeping advance.

That'd do it no worries. They'd be awesome again.

E VERY time.

 Grumblewartz wrote:

Spoiler:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.

Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:

1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.

2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.

3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).

Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).

With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.

Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.

Exalted!

Terminators essentially suffer from the same problem that the entire Chaos Marine codex has suffered from; the game has long since changed & evolved past them, yet Terminators stubbornly refuse to change at all. (or rather, GW refuses to admit that Termies need to change & evolve with the times!)

What I'd honestly do for them;
- Reduce base cost to 30pts/model.
- T5/2++
- Add +1W to the Vet Sergeant (he's a damned Veteran Sergeant for feth's sake!) Note I'd also make this change codex wide, so ALL Vet Sergeants & Aspiring Champions become W2 characters. (it would also give more of a reason to spend the extra pts to upgrade to Veteran status)
- Reduce unit size to 3+ for SW's, DA's, BT's, GK's & CSM's. Codex adherent Chapters remain 5-10.
- 3-5 strong unit may take 0-1 Heavy weapon. 6+ may take 0-2 Heavy weapons.
- Change Storm Bolter to S4/ap5, Shred, Salvo 2/3. Salvo rule itself changes to always use the maximum range, moving units may only fire the lesser number of shots, may not shoot & assault in the same turn. Relentless units ignore the latter two penalties. (ie: always shoot max shots + can shoot & assault same turn)
- Combi-weapons remain only accessible to SW & CSM versions.

Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit - but it is cool, it is in my army. Haha, love it.

Yeah, god forbid Terminators become usable...

Terminator/Chaos Terminator; add +1T 30pts/model
Terminator Sergeant/Terminator Champion; add +1W to profile in addition to the basic +1T boost
- nothing else profile wise changes. They're still base 2+/5++. All current upgrades stay the same cost. (so chaos versions are still royally fethed!)
This wouldn't magically make Termies suddenly OP by any stretch... There's more than enough multi-shot S5/6 in the game to hose them down, however it would allow them to shrug off basic small arms fire in a way that's much more fitting to how they're perceived in the background.

For Codex Space Marines & Codex Blood Angels, base unit size is 5 - 10 max.
For Chaos Terminators, Black Templars, Wolfguard, Deathwing & Grey Knights, base unit size is 3 - 10 max.
- why? because of the Loyalist Chapters, those 4 are the most dramatically divergent from their 'codex' brethren. 3 min has also long been a staple difference of Chaos as well.

Units of 3-5 may take a single Heavy weapon upgrade. Units of 6-10 may take a second upgrade.
- why? Because currently one of the biggest factors holding Termies back in general is that you can't viably generate any kind of decent firepower from such an expensive unit! They're not going to suddenly 'break the game' buy having to pay only an extra 30pts 'tax' to unlock a second upgrade... Scatbikes, everything Tau in general, Grav cannons, dakka Tyrants/'Fexes et all will still outgun paired Assault cannons.
However, with 2 for only 6 models, Termies can suddenly fight back some!

Storm Bolters become 24"/S4/ap5/Salvo 2/3 + Shred.
- Storm Bolters are among the single worst weapons in the game currently. They were 'good' back when Rapid Fire weapons couldn't move and shoot effectively, and everything in general was 10-50% more costly. Now, they're a ****ing joke, even more so than basic Bolters!
All Bolt weapons should probably have the Shred rule as standard anyways, which would at least bring them up to the same standard as every other basic gun, bar the Lasgun/Autogun. (which should be noticeably weaker anyways, and a better Bolter would also merit Guardsmen going down to 4pts/model)

Combi-weapons can only be taken by Chaos & Wolfguard Termies. Everyone else has gotten with the modern times after all!



For Orkky versions, (Ork players please help me out here!), I'd give them the following;
T5/W2/2+ @40pts/model base

Standard weapons load is Kustom-Shoota + Power klaw. (all upgrades remain the same)
Kustom Kombi-Shoota = 18"/S5/ap5/Assault D3+1 (roll once for entire unit)
- let Kombi-Skorchas & Rokkits use the newer shoota profile...
Like Terminators, Meganobz lack decent shooting output for such a costly unit. They could use a bit more punch, especially since they lack the ability to take actual heavy weapons to augment their basic guns.

add Cybork Body upgrade for +5pts/model - gives 5++, re-rolling 1's.
- Adds a level of randomness to the Orks, but on the whole, works out to be roughly on par with a strait-up 4++.

add Kustom Mega-Boosta for +2pts/model - declare if using at the beginning of the Ork player turn, unit gains the 'Fleet' USR, but models may only make Snapshots in their next Shooting phase.
- with only Trukks & Battlewagons as delivery systems, helps to give an otherwise slow assault unit a bit of a boost.

Let em have a second heavy weapon per 5 men like the old days, and let them shoot or assault after deep-striking, I say.

Martel732 wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Assault Terminators weren't bad in 5th. Fearless Wound mechanics made them effective against Orks, Daemons etc because Terminators nearly always won the CC even if they didn't kill that many models in actual combat.

They were still bad.

They were quite good early in the edition, especially against Orks, then gradually got worse as edition progressed and new more powerful codices came out.

Loyalist termies were bad in 2nd because of cost and -6 armor save weapons.

They became permabad after plasma was made ap2 rapid fire. It's only gotten worse since.