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SRSFACE wrote: The only one of these things that's a tangible benefit is the 2+/5++. Deep striking has it's usefulness, but space marines have plenty of other ways to deep strike units. Many of those units are significantly better in the turn they arrive from deep strike than Terminators are (Sternguard in general, Company Veterans for Dark Angels geared out with Combi-weapons, etc)
That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.
CSM have a whole bucketload of problems. The fact they're reliant on Terminators to access Deep Striking (with all the same weaknesses but no ATSKNF) or a 2+ save for a character is just the tip of a sad iceberg.
Doubly so when you realise that their actual kit is tragic - not quite including enough combi weapons or variety of power weapons to make building a solid squad feasible.
But like I said, CSM have a whole slew of problems of their own. Terminators are literally the tip of an iceberg.
Martel732 wrote: Loyalist termies were bad in 2nd because of cost and -6 armor save weapons.
They became permabad after plasma was made ap2 rapid fire. It's only gotten worse since.
The irony that TDA was originally made for usage in plasma reactors, and yet is so commonly destroyed by plasma guns, always amuses me.
Without a massive global ruleset overhaul (toning down invul and AP2 availability), my approach to redesigning Terminators would simply changing their base model stats:
39pts, T5, 4++,, allow up to 2 special/heavy weapons per squad, options to change powerfists for power weapons free, give them an Autocannon option.
Would result in models that are more resistant to massed low S firepower (as they should be) and can still pack a fair amount of firepower and can strike at I if swapping fists.
man i played termies when they didnt even have the 5 up. BACK IN MY DAY..........
I feel like termies need a point reduction, way to get into assault easier, additional wound, or what about a 3 up invuln with shield. termies and dreads are what attracted me to space marines originally
Martel732 wrote: Loyalist termies were bad in 2nd because of cost and -6 armor save weapons.
They became permabad after plasma was made ap2 rapid fire. It's only gotten worse since.
I don't personally find Plasma rifles so bothersome. They are expensive and have low volume of fire. It is small arms volume fire and some Codex specific weapons which always kills my Termies, not so much Plasma rifles.
Martel732 wrote: Loyalist termies were bad in 2nd because of cost and -6 armor save weapons.
They became permabad after plasma was made ap2 rapid fire. It's only gotten worse since.
I don't personally find Plasma rifles so bothersome. They are expensive and have low volume of fire. It is small arms volume fire and some Codex specific weapons which always kills my Termies, not so much Plasma rifles.
They often come together. Yes, scatterlasers will kill you from 36" away laughing the whole time. This is not news. 2nd ed shuriken cannons were -3 armor save and also mowed down termies from a range with weight of wounds. Termies have always had this problem. But old CSM terminators could shoot back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/21 14:07:52
I think Terminators sucking partly comes down to the way 40k works at its core. Just the way the wounds, toughness and armour save system works it makes it hard for a unit of "tactical dreadnoughts" to do anything but suck.
Make them T5 to reduce the effect of small arms. You could potentially make them W2 to reduce the effect of a bad roll and so it takes more shots from things like plasma guns to kill them. Make it so a lot of single shot anti tank weaponry (ie. stuff that is powerful but designed to hit large targets) has a negative "to hit" modifier when targeting infantry targets so that turning your heavy weapons on elite infantry becomes a harder choice.
I have no idea how much they'd be worth with those changes and it might cause other issues that also need to be solved, but it would make Terminators play like the walking tanks they should be,
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Most people mention that Terminators don't seem to have anything going for them and are poorly designed, but I argue that they're another victim of the power creep the game has incurred over the years.
Back when I first started 40k, Terminators were actually feared in my local meta because:
1.) The vanilla versions brought the Assault Cannon and Power Fists, along with the occasional Chainfist for heavy armor cracking. Close Combat Terminators were the only source of massed, cheap Lightning Claws and Thunderhammer/Storm Shields.
2.) While they cost even more in points back then, everything else also cost MUCH more. A termagant, universally considered a swarm unit, cost 8 points back then, and a Hormagaunt costed 9.
3.) Widespread access to quick, efficient transports and fast movement were rare or flat out nonexistant for most armies. A rhino costs 50 points base and came with much less fun stuff than it does now. And that's just a Rhino; stuff like Chimeras, Wave Serpents and all other junk came at even higher premiums, often costing more than the squad they were bought for! In addition, running was nonexistant too, so while Terminators weren't necessarily faster back then, it meant they got a lot more mileage out of their weapon's superior range back then (They could, at the very least, keep pace with most enemy troops).
Terminators were made for a very different time, and aside from the change to Storm Shields that happened in 5th edition, very little has otherwise been done to help them adapt to the times. Weapons have gotten stronger and cheaper, which rendered their armor moot; back then it would probably take your entire army's shooting to take out a squad of Terminators in one or two turns, while now most squads of comparable cost can probably do it if they can field enough bodies (Death by flashlights is a very real fear for them now).
With Transports, Running, and all sorts of movement modifiers (in the form of buffs, special rules, etc.) running around, Terminators no longer have the luxury of simply running forward and shooting things. Nerfs to CCand Power Weapons in general also neutered CC terminators since they would often get shot up before closing the distance without an expensive land raider, and even if they did close the distance often something else would have done the job faster, better and cheaper than them.
Finally, Terminators, especially the vanilla variants, no longer have their niche of armor busting; back then units didn't come with grenades as standard; you had to pay for them. Quite a lot too (2 points per model for Krak Grenades usually, 1 point for Frags. Imagine all of that for EVERY MODEL). Now these things come as standard on almost every trooper. Why bother with a 200 point squad that has a hard time catching up to vehicles when you can spend the same amount of points on a unit that can probably throw out Grav attacks, high Strength volume attacks to shave off Hull Points, or some weird special rule like Haywire? Their weapons also got more widespread; now a lot more guys can take Storm Shields, Lightning Claws, Thunderhammers and so on. What was once almost near-exclusive to them is now basically handed out like candy. Candy to people who cost less and can do far more with them, and with the option to mix and match.
Exalted!
Terminators essentially suffer from the same problem that the entire Chaos Marine codex has suffered from; the game has long since changed & evolved past them, yet Terminators stubbornly refuse to change at all. (or rather, GW refuses to admit that Termies need to change & evolve with the times!)
What I'd honestly do for them;
- Reduce base cost to 30pts/model.
- T5/2++
- Add +1W to the Vet Sergeant (he's a damned Veteran Sergeant for feth's sake!) Note I'd also make this change codex wide, so ALL Vet Sergeants & Aspiring Champions become W2 characters. (it would also give more of a reason to spend the extra pts to upgrade to Veteran status)
- Reduce unit size to 3+ for SW's, DA's, BT's, GK's & CSM's. Codex adherent Chapters remain 5-10.
- 3-5 strong unit may take 0-1 Heavy weapon. 6+ may take 0-2 Heavy weapons.
- Change Storm Bolter to S4/ap5, Shred, Salvo 2/3. Salvo rule itself changes to always use the maximum range, moving units may only fire the lesser number of shots, may not shoot & assault in the same turn. Relentless units ignore the latter two penalties. (ie: always shoot max shots + can shoot & assault same turn)
- Combi-weapons remain only accessible to SW & CSM versions.
Ahh yes, this is what these threads always eventually turn into. The unit is currently overcosted, so let us decrease the point buff the ever living out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit - but it is cool, it is in my army. Haha, love it.
Yeah, god forbid Terminators become usable...
Terminator/Chaos Terminator; add +1T 30pts/model
Terminator Sergeant/Terminator Champion; add +1W to profile in addition to the basic +1T boost
- nothing else profile wise changes. They're still base 2+/5++. All current upgrades stay the same cost. (so chaos versions are still royally fethed!)
This wouldn't magically make Termies suddenly OP by any stretch... There's more than enough multi-shot S5/6 in the game to hose them down, however it would allow them to shrug off basic small arms fire in a way that's much more fitting to how they're perceived in the background.
For Codex Space Marines & Codex Blood Angels, base unit size is 5 - 10 max.
For Chaos Terminators, Black Templars, Wolfguard, Deathwing & Grey Knights, base unit size is 3 - 10 max.
- why? because of the Loyalist Chapters, those 4 are the most dramatically divergent from their 'codex' brethren. 3 min has also long been a staple difference of Chaos as well.
Units of 3-5 may take a single Heavy weapon upgrade. Units of 6-10 may take a second upgrade.
- why? Because currently one of the biggest factors holding Termies back in general is that you can't viably generate any kind of decent firepower from such an expensive unit! They're not going to suddenly 'break the game' buy having to pay only an extra 30pts 'tax' to unlock a second upgrade... Scatbikes, everything Tau in general, Grav cannons, dakka Tyrants/'Fexes et all will still outgun paired Assault cannons.
However, with 2 for only 6 models, Termies can suddenly fight back some!
Storm Bolters become 24"/S4/ap5/Salvo 2/3 + Shred.
- Storm Bolters are among the single worst weapons in the game currently. They were 'good' back when Rapid Fire weapons couldn't move and shoot effectively, and everything in general was 10-50% more costly. Now, they're a ****ing joke, even more so than basic Bolters!
All Bolt weapons should probably have the Shred rule as standard anyways, which would at least bring them up to the same standard as every other basic gun, bar the Lasgun/Autogun. (which should be noticeably weaker anyways, and a better Bolter would also merit Guardsmen going down to 4pts/model)
Combi-weapons can only be taken by Chaos & Wolfguard Termies. Everyone else has gotten with the modern times after all!
[/spoiler]
Dude, you aren't helping your point. You say each upgrade isn't a big deal individually, but somehow miss the very basic point that adding ALL OF THEM together AND REDUCING points would make the unit swing in the entirely opposite direction. I love it.
Active armies, still collecting and painting First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled most complete and painted beautiful models, couldn't resist the swarm will consume all
Armies in disrepair: nothing new since 5th edition oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders in need of love
1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad
2) bike units and jetbikes need a major price jack, and shooting centric specialists need to have some of their special rules packages and baselines either adjusted or be gutted. theyve grown out of control
3) you need to slow the game down, this will probably need to involve a reworking of the imbalance between shooting and melee (as noted in item 2) and a rebalancing of unit types where some unit types are objectively better then others because of their mechanics. such as jump infantry and jetpack infantry, jetbikes, cavalry, and bikes. formations that encourage shooting would also need to be re-examind ad well as CC patch job formations like the skyhammer annihilation force and shadowstrike killteam this is to make sure its not a totally worthless venture to buy shooting units. in some cases formations may simply be removed entirely.
option step 4) (as this mainly applies to terminator like units in other armies): you then need to go back and start fixing base armies and dropping supplemental things like formations and supplemental rules. in some cases armies could lose whole army supplements from legal use such as farsight enclave and clan raukkan, this would also include things like relics and warlord traits. for example anything granting eternal warriors would probably become very expensive, or any way to make a non troops base unit a troop such as bike marines in codex marines
So what your saying is ramp up the price of everything that can beat terminators to the point where every ary that can has to take them because other viable options are too expensive and slow down a game which based on the average time it takes to play a game at my lgs already takes at least an hour, as well as this you also want to turn an already dodgey rules system on its head
General Kroll wrote: Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Or, alternatively, give them a 2+/3++ standard so they can actually live through the AP race that is currently happening - They have an armor the size of a house, for goodness sake. Let's give them a save that reflects that.
Honestly, I don't even see it as massive amounts of AP2, because in my experience, that's really not the case unless I'm playing against Eldar. No, the biggest problem is the fact that mass small arms fire kills terminator squads dead pretty easily. Being a single wound on a 45+ point model is a problem, and its particularly annoying given that terminator armour is supposed to be, per the fluff, immune to small arms fire.
Honestly, terminator armour for all but maybe Grey Knights will be largely considered a waste unless its completely redesigned from the ground up for all armies using it. This will likely not happen until the entire game is overhauled (ala Age of Sigmar) because so many different armies use terminator armour. It can't suddenly be dirt cheap or function completely different for Chaos when their book drops because it throws off everybody else using the same armour.
Terminators might be able to get away with the old Thousand Sons rule where they were immune to any weapons S5 or lower. Its been done before on several units, it could be done again.
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
Jayden63 wrote: Terminators might be able to get away with the old Thousand Sons rule where they were immune to any weapons S5 or lower. Its been done before on several units, it could be done again.
Not a terrible idea, but it might make terminators a little too durable against armies that, fluff wise, don't really care about terminator armour, particularly Tyranids with Genestealers (the traditional termie threat) and Chaos Daemons. I think a better solution would be to give a 4+ FNP roll, or heck, even a 3+ if you REALLY want to make them durable. A 3+ FNP would make them largely immune to small arms, help them against mid-range AP2 stuff like plasma guns and rending, and keep them just as vulnerable to heavy anti-tank weaponry such as lascannons, melta, and rail guns (as they should be). You'd just have to make it so that it couldn't be improved, kind of like they do with Necrons and Reanimation Protocols (can't be better than 4+).
Would significantly increased durability against small to mid arms fire be enough to make even the tactical termie worth the points? It would certainly make TH/SS termies a very enticing option as a LR wouldn't be a necessity, as well as combi termies for Chaos. I still think tactical termies should be pushed up in points to match TH/SS, and improved on their offensive capabilities.
Jayden63 wrote: Terminators might be able to get away with the old Thousand Sons rule where they were immune to any weapons S5 or lower. Its been done before on several units, it could be done again.
Not a terrible idea, but it might make terminators a little too durable against armies that, fluff wise, don't really care about terminator armour, particularly Tyranids with Genestealers (the traditional termie threat) and Chaos Daemons. I think a better solution would be to give a 4+ FNP roll, or heck, even a 3+ if you REALLY want to make them durable. A 3+ FNP would make them largely immune to small arms, help them against mid-range AP2 stuff like plasma guns and rending, and keep them just as vulnerable to heavy anti-tank weaponry such as lascannons, melta, and rail guns (as they should be). You'd just have to make it so that it couldn't be improved, kind of like they do with Necrons and Reanimation Protocols (can't be better than 4+).
Would significantly increased durability against small to mid arms fire be enough to make even the tactical termie worth the points? It would certainly make TH/SS termies a very enticing option as a LR wouldn't be a necessity, as well as combi termies for Chaos. I still think tactical termies should be pushed up in points to match TH/SS, and improved on their offensive capabilities.
I'd rather see Termie armour itself grant +1T, as that way S3 will need 6's to-wound, while S4 would at least need 5's.
Without a source of re-rolls and combined with a 2+ save, it would make Termie armour much less vulnerable to basic small arms & bare fisticuffs.
Otherwise, if they were to get a 3+ FnP, you would probably have to drop the Storm shield down to a 4++ save, as a re-rolled 3++ or 2+/3++ is just insane to try and get through.
The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
I'd rather see Termie armour itself grant +1T, as that way S3 will need 6's to-wound, while S4 would at least need 5's.
Without a source of re-rolls and combined with a 2+ save, it would make Termie armour much less vulnerable to basic small arms & bare fisticuffs.
Otherwise, if they were to get a 3+ FnP, you would probably have to drop the Storm shield down to a 4++ save, as a re-rolled 3++ or 2+/3++ is just insane to try and get through.
+1T steps on the toes of centurions though.
While a 2+/3++/3+++ is pretty darn brutal I readily admit, it all comes down to what you feel the capabilities should be for a 45 point model geared for assault with no shooting, cannot sweeping advance, and has a single wound. Personally, I think that save line would require a points increase, at least pushing them up by 5 points per model. I'd rather terminators have better capabilities that fit close to the fluff as possible and be pointed appropriately. Terminators SHOULD be insanely difficult to kill with anything but the strongest firepower.
At their current price, maybe a 4+ FNP would be more fitting. Still makes them very durable against non-AP2 small arms, and still have a decent chance at surviving plasma and rending. Add another shot or two to stormbolters, and I think you've got a pretty decent unit in tactical termies, not over powered at all but pretty darn hard to get rid of, and an outstanding unit in assault termies with TH/SS, again, not OP because their damage output is limited because they HAVE to assault to do anything, but darn near indestructible to anything short of an anti-tank weapon..
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
Keep in mind that for Deathwing Knights to get their +1T bonus, they have to essentially put themselves into the stupidest formation you can in 40k... Anything in BtB is nothing more than fodder to templates/blasts.
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
Keep in mind that for Deathwing Knights to get their +1T bonus, they have to essentially put themselves into the stupidest formation you can in 40k... Anything in BtB is nothing more than fodder to templates/blasts.
Good point. Although you can spread them out and move them back together when you charge.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
They have like NO damage output so does that even matter?
All they need is the changes I proposed earlier. S5 Storm Bolters, two Heavy Weapons per five, and TH/SS become a 5 point upgrade, and then pepper in whatever to make Assault Terminators more special-snowflakey.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
Keep in mind that for Deathwing Knights to get their +1T bonus, they have to essentially put themselves into the stupidest formation you can in 40k... Anything in BtB is nothing more than fodder to templates/blasts.
I just don't feel that T5 helps all flavors of terminators that much, at least not enough to make them viable. Sure, they become largely immune to lasguns, and more resistant to boltguns and shootas, but that's about it. Eldar and Tau still cut through them with their basic small and mid level firepower. Dark Eldar and Nids have tons of ranged poison shots. Plasma still chews through them with relative ease. I just feel that something referred to as Tactical Dreadnaught Armour should have emphasis on extreme durability against anything short of a weapon designed to take down an actual dreadnaught.
pm713 wrote: The concern I have with making Terminators T5 is what do you do with things like Deathwing Knights who can increase their toughness. T6 termies seems a bit much.
They have like NO damage output so does that even matter?
All they need is the changes I proposed earlier. S5 Storm Bolters, two Heavy Weapons per five, and TH/SS become a 5 point upgrade, and then pepper in whatever to make Assault Terminators more special-snowflakey.
I'm not arguing that because it's clear we have very different experiences of the game.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
i personally like them as a marine player, i often play orks and once took twenty regular termies and 10 assaults, they formed an indestructible wall of green killing death
SPACE MARINES imerial guard skitarii
space marines: an army where if morale is down you look at your commander for inspiration and you valiantly fight on and kill m any in the name of the emperor
imperial guard: if morale gets low your commander shoots one of your comrades and expects that to encourage you
It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
AegisGrimm wrote: It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
General Kroll wrote: Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.
I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.
I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.
But..
The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.
Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.
Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.
Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.
so you beolieve in a race to the bottom to solve all our problems? perhaps ud like to make power armoured marines free, i hear people dont like paying for things XD
I beolieve that it's a pretty big leap to go from a suggested price reduction to an under used and arguably over costed unit, to suggesting that a standard troop choice should be free.
AegisGrimm wrote: It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
People, for some reason, accept GW's power units.
Or think that rather than making everything stronger it's best to mix nerfs and buffs.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
AegisGrimm wrote: It's kind of funny that on one hand lots of people think they are underpowered, and then it's so easy to make other people think "Oh, that'd make them too powerful", when other things in the game are already that powerful!
I don't think the solution is to go to the other extreme, is all. That's how a lot of those other power units came to exist, and they are obnoxious as a result.
I'd rather move a unit toward usable by inches than by miles.
I have been playing for about 4 editions now and the only time i thought terminators were good was for a short time when they released assault terminators. i think that if you could take 1 heavy weapon per model they would be competitive. though 35 points a model was a much needed boost.
That said chaos terminators in min squads with combi are not bad. nice distraction.
svengarr wrote: I have been playing for about 4 editions now and the only time i thought terminators were good was for a short time when they released assault terminators. i think that if you could take 1 heavy weapon per model they would be competitive. though 35 points a model was a much needed boost.
That said chaos terminators in min squads with combi are not bad. nice distraction.
Absolutely not! Then we're right back with the exact same obnoxious BS that Scatbikes cause.
2 Heavies in 5 seems a bit on the cheap side of things. Allowing for 2 heavies for simply taking that 6th man at least is fairly balanced & allows 0 room for whining.
That alone would go some distance in at least making Tactical Termies look much more attractive, when they only have to pay an additional 35pts 'tax' instead of a frankly insultingly stupid 175pts tax! (seriously, who the flying ever though THAT was a good idea?!)
+1T to their profile or else innate FnP 4+ AND +1W for the squad Sergeant/Champion would bring Termies much closer to their 'elite walking tank' status.
A fix for Storm Bolters & Combi-Bolters in general is just a no-brainer at this point, as is finally giving all Bolt weapons something like 'Shred' or re-roll 1's to-wound... They're fething explody-grenade-bullets for gak's sake. They're meant to remove large chunks of your average individual's entire body mass when they hit home afterall!
out of them at the same time. Now we have an ultra-broken unit - but it is cool, it is in my army. Haha, love it. 
First and greatest love - Orks, Orks, and more Orks 
largest pile of shame, so many tanks unassembled 
most complete and painted 
beautiful models, couldn't resist 
the swarm will consume all
nothing new since 5th edition 
oh how I want to revive, but mostly old fantasy demons and some glorious Soul Grinders 
in need of love 
