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Exactly. Four Termicide dudes is about 150 points to eliminate a specific target. There's no Deep Striking accuracy for CSM outside the stupid Key, but oh well...

Can someone explain to me the difference in the role Termies are supposed to fill in the Space Marine army and the role that Centurions are supposed to fill?

Terminators have the advantage to Deep Strike, but that's it.

Terminators are like shock troops. They are more choppy than shooty. Centurions are pure shooty.

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators are like shock troops. They are more choppy than shooty. Centurions are pure shooty.

Dev Cents (which is what most people think of) this is correct.

The oft-neglected assault cents fill a very similar role to tactical terminators. A bit of shooting, and a lot of chopping.

IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.

 Nevelon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators are like shock troops. They are more choppy than shooty. Centurions are pure shooty.

Dev Cents (which is what most people think of) this is correct.

The oft-neglected assault cents fill a very similar role to tactical terminators. A bit of shooting, and a lot of chopping.

IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.

Agree with this statement. Additionally, Cents are probably the ugliest unit in C:SM in my opinion.

I forgot assault cents existed.

They're still better than Assault Terminators.

 Nevelon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators are like shock troops. They are more choppy than shooty. Centurions are pure shooty.

Dev Cents (which is what most people think of) this is correct.

The oft-neglected assault cents fill a very similar role to tactical terminators. A bit of shooting, and a lot of chopping.

IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.

I think Assault Cents server a different role from Terminators. ACs are more about siege warfare, breaking through bunkers, tearing down gun emplacements and other fortifications, punching holes in tanks, stuff that is easy to hit in assault and doesn't hit back. The extra T and W serve the purpose of making them durable enough to get to their intended target. Terminators are meant as a more precise shock unit, teleporting behind enemy lines, weathering the initial fire and charging into key units such as enemy command squads or heavy weapon squads.

I've found that once in combat, Terminators of all kinds often do well enough to cause significant havoc providing the unit is largely intact. Its why Terminators in a land raider are effective (but prohibitively expensive) because it negates one of their biggest weaknesses. However, the land raider tax is ridiculously high, and even TH/SS termies are not currently durable enough to weather the incoming fire after a deepstrike.

Once you pay for a Drop Pod, though, Assault Centurions are just going to be better than Tactical Terminators AND Assault Terminators. The firepower they provide more than makes up for having four less attacks in the group (or just three if you pay for the Veteran upgrade).

At the same time they are still a gak assault unit because anything you can kill with Assault Centurions could be killed with Assault Termies for a lower cost.

If they come across anything with a Invul they start sucking even more.

Is that actually true though?

You're going to be paying for 4-5 TH-SS because the Lightning Claws exist solely as challenge catchers. This makes the unit 215-225. Centurions with Melta Guns are 175, and the Drop Pod makes them 210. Add the Veteran upgrade or Omniscope or Deathwind for taste (or two or all of them, if points allow).

Immediately you have taken care of the mobility issue. The Deep Strike is accurate, and the Drop Pod can potentially sit on an objective too. 7 S10 attacks at I4 is just worth it over 10 S8 at I1.
Add different values for charging of course, but Terminators are DEFINITELY not killing the same targets for less.

Cents have the advantage in that they are more effective against all AV targets (which means Imperial Knights essentially) and SW melee (Due to ID).

However they are only I4 if they don't have to deal with difficult terrain, which an opponent will recognize and will as a result move into such a position. Hell depending on the board a unit could simply kite them as they can't run. This means you might not even get that charge you NEED off.

So they need a better delivery system, they need a goddamn Land Raider which is 245 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Is that actually true though?

You're going to be paying for 4-5 TH-SS because the Lightning Claws exist solely as challenge catchers. This makes the unit 215-225. Centurions with Melta Guns are 175, and the Drop Pod makes them 210. Add the Veteran upgrade or Omniscope or Deathwind for taste (or two or all of them, if points allow).

Immediately you have taken care of the mobility issue. The Deep Strike is accurate, and the Drop Pod can potentially sit on an objective too. 7 S10 attacks at I4 is just worth it over 10 S8 at I1.
Add different values for charging of course, but Terminators are DEFINITELY not killing the same targets for less.

Depends on the target. If you are assaulting, or being assaulted by (as is usually the case), something fast or well equipped like a hive tyrant, greater daemon, or even a unit of necron wraiths, the TH/SS terminators generally do better than the assault centurions because they can survive that initial wave of AP2 hits better, and then every round after that, everybody strikes at Init 1. Against slower, more mundane targets such as vehicles, bunkers, or even some slower MCs like carnifexes, the assault cents should perform better because it allows them to take advantage of their faster, stronger attacks, killing their target outright before it ever gets a chance to hit back. In my mind, this is exactly how it should be.

Of course, deepstriking either unit is likely a death sentence for them, because any time a unit deepstrikes in or near an enemy deployment, every gun is pointed their way. At least assault cents can suicide melta a tank or something.

That's untrue regarding Daemon Princes and Wraiths, as both are T5 and are ID'd by Centurions. Plus they have the shooting to soften them up (if they're in charging range, they're being hit by 3 TL Melta Guns and 9 TL Bolters). That shooting makes up for it immediately. Also, nobody charges with Tyrants, and their 4 attacks make them pathetic to try and charge either target (you're looking at two hits and a little less than two wounds. Chances say the Centurions will be just fine).

 Nevelon wrote:
IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. I would have rather seen terminators boosted statwise to where Cents are, rather then a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.

I completely agree, I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing. So, basically instead of giving terminators their much needed buff, the "design" team thought it better to create a whole new unit to fill basically the same role - just another reason to love GW......

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's untrue regarding Daemon Princes and Wraiths, as both are T5 and are ID'd by Centurions. Plus they have the shooting to soften them up (if they're in charging range, they're being hit by 3 TL Melta Guns and 9 TL Bolters). That shooting makes up for it immediately. Also, nobody charges with Tyrants, and their 4 attacks make them pathetic to try and charge either target (you're looking at two hits and a little less than two wounds. Chances say the Centurions will be just fine).

I think the centurion siege drill is S9, not S10. I don't have the book with me, so I could be wrong.

They're S10 now.

And theyre not unwieldly either, I believe.

I always thought a bunch of I4 str 10 attacks from assault cents could be handy, but I've yet to see them ever fielded, so I might be wrong.

I guess it's not as handy as grav spam, at any rate.

I want to try centurions instead of termies. You can cure their mobility problems with drop pods and their s10 at initiative attacks will ruin someone's day. Also don't forget their assault launchers that are both assault and defensive grenades. They can also fit one IC with them in their pod. Them +a chaplain will get work done.

 Nevelon wrote:


IMHO cents are an unnecessary add on to the fluff. a new unit made that has a very heavy overlap with the traditional TDA role. Or had Cents have inferior stats, with the fluff background of they were a easier to make substitute for the rare/hard to manufacture TDA armor. But that ship has sailed. We have what we got.

That kind of implies that squads of Terminators exist primarily to lift heavy equipment for the support of other units and can't really operate by themselves.

I don't think that's really what Terminators do. I think Terminators, the individual marines who make up Terminator units, are elite self contained units, and centurion suits are the equivalent of finding the strongest, dumbest fire fighters in the room to do one specific task while 97 other guys get on with their own jobs. That's something I actually really like, because I like when everyone has a role to play and works together, but it is a totally different thing than a Terminator.

You understand that, right, like that Terminators are the actual five guys whose job it is to enter a space hulk by themselves, while coincidentally wearing TDA? They could conceivably be five guys in flak armor, but their survival time would be shorter than the mission, so they wear special armor. It is called "Terminator armor" because special units called Terminator squads that wear that kind of armor.

I also don't really think TDA can even give those kinds of bonus, but that's a whole other thing.