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Grizzyzz wrote:Nah doesn't matter.. because then they would essentially be like dreadnaughts..

Exactly.

and their would be complaints that riptides get invul saves

Yes. Riptides shouldn't have invuln saves. They should work exactly like dreadnoughts.

and have better guns then dreads do.

No, that's fine. Riptides should just cost more points than dreadnoughts. A lot more points.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BA don't have grav cents. There's no point in allying them when a pure vanilla force is strictly better in every way.

Your right.. and I think everyone has always agreed with you, BA aren't good right now.. they got canned in the release cycle.. so maybe play another chapter if you want to handle more situations (since you don't want to ally that is)..

Well, aren't BA supposed to be chapter in decline? there must be a reason behind it!

Traditio wrote:
Or maybe MCs just need to be nerfed. Riptides should have the following stats:

Walker: AV: F 12, S 12, R 10. 3 HP.

Riptides are MCs and not walkers, because they are anime mecha and not vertical tanks. This is part of their appeal for Tau players, or at least for me, and it also reflects their fluff. They are consistently described as agile and responsive.

There are mechanical problems with this, but that is not the fault of Tau players, especially ones who talk things out with their opponents in advance. I've had someone tell me Riptides are hated as much as Knights, and that is bullgak, let me tell you.

If you're questioning why I play Tau, can't I do the same thing in reverse? Why do you play gue'ron'sha and then complain that your tail's getting kicked? Why aren't you using gravstar? Didn't you know people were talking about how powerful Riptides are?

You're assuming that spehss mureens are the default and everything else needs to justify itself somehow. The only thing I need to do to justify myself is bring models to the table. Swing your gardening tools somewhere else if you're not going to help me make that a fun time for me and my opponent.

Backfire wrote:Yeah, it's got really stupid. They should both fix the vehicle damage AND make units like Riptides vehicles. This would remove the absurdities resulting from Riptide's MC status.

Personally, I like the vehicle damage table. The possibility of exploding vehicles makes you seriously consider whether you should bring that tank or not, where you should position it, etc. Were it not for MC shenanigans, the current vehicle damage chart would make infantry pretty fething attractive.

Traditio wrote:
Yes. Riptides shouldn't have invuln saves. They should work exactly like dreadnoughts.

Stop telling me what my codex should be like. I never asked your opinion. And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like my ideas about your Astartes.

Jewelfox wrote:Riptides are MCs and not walkers, because they are anime mecha and not vertical tanks.

Gundams never get immobilized or explode? Their guns never get blown off?

You're assuming that spehss mureens are the default and everything else needs to justify itself somehow.

Historically? That's just true. Space marines are the stars of the 40k show. They are literally GW's 40k poster-children.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:I shouldn't have to trash can my army to take on giant stompy robots. That's the whole point. Mechanically, the fact that anti-tank weapons suck both against tanks AND MCs at this point is absurd. Fixing that would fix a lot of problems. If lascannons dealt two or three wounds to Riptides, problem largely solved.

Or maybe a bunch of MCs just need to be nerfed. Riptides should have the following stats:

Walker: AV: F 12, S 12, R 10. 3 HP.

Ditto for wraithlords.

Ditto for wraithknights, except higher AV values.

Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Everything should be scaled down to bring the game more in line with a "my army (i.e., this blob of infantry with their vehicles) fights your army (that blob of infantry with their vehicles)" kind of feel. Giant robots and other nonsense like that need to be scaled down. A lot.

Yes, because giant robots aren't a valid reason to play 40k and aren't the reason many players get into Tau to begin with.

To be fair, the giant robots are a revent development of the last couple years for Tau, not a longstanding hallmark. They used to be a very tank heavy army, with Crisis Suits in support (but werent big gigantor robots either).

I liked the Tau vehicle upgrade that made them fast, but not fast. That was so thematically accurate.

Yup. I very much miss my vehicle multi-trackers (shoot like a fast vehicle) and target locks (vehicle can split fire its guns, so we don't have to waste SMS shots on a land raider or a railgun shot on a target which is out of LOS).

Also, yes, the big robot phase of the Tau is very much a new thing. Their previous fluff had them eschewing building big robots due to the inefficiency of putting that much of your resources in one thing when Crisis, Hammerheads and Broadsides could handle most things and for anything else there was aircraft like the Manta. Of course that was back before Broadside railguns suddenly became weaker than Lascannons.

 Jewelfox wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Yes. Riptides shouldn't have invuln saves. They should work exactly like dreadnoughts.

Stop telling me what my codex should be like. I never asked your opinion. And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like my ideas about your Astartes.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Traditio. They are similar looking units, they are both mechanized. though, because of a simple change in unit type, they operate vastly different. I'm sick of MCs-that-should-be-walkers. just make all Walkers MCs and be done with it, or vice versa.

Traditio wrote:

Jaxler wrote:I'm of the mind tau shouldn't be nerfed, but other codexes should be buffed.

I completely agree. Codices don't need buffs. Everything should be scaled down to bring the game more in line with a "my army (i.e., this blob of infantry with their vehicles) fights your army (that blob of infantry with their vehicles)" kind of feel. Giant robots and other nonsense like that need to be scaled down. A lot.

Sir, what I'm saying is that tau should be eldar level. So should chaos space marines and orks, everything should be around 7.5 Ed level.

Also I like my riptide, though I feel like common infantry need a place on the table top. I feel like adjusting points could fix this. If anything making them less expensive would help.

pm713 wrote:
Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

Is there any major mechanical difference between a Wraithlord and a Wraithknight?

Traditio wrote:

Historically? That's just true. Space marines are the stars of the 40k show. They are literally GW's 40k poster-children.

They certainly weren't the stars of Kauyon. Especially not the late chapter master of the Raven Guard.

BTW, chainswords should have Gets Hot and weapons with Sniper should deal Instant Death to helmetless Astartes on a 2+.

pm713 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:I shouldn't have to trash can my army to take on giant stompy robots. That's the whole point. Mechanically, the fact that anti-tank weapons suck both against tanks AND MCs at this point is absurd. Fixing that would fix a lot of problems. If lascannons dealt two or three wounds to Riptides, problem largely solved.

Or maybe a bunch of MCs just need to be nerfed. Riptides should have the following stats:

Walker: AV: F 12, S 12, R 10. 3 HP.

Ditto for wraithlords.

Ditto for wraithknights, except higher AV values.

Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

It's a vehicular-mechanical construct and not an actual creature. They used to actually be called Eldar Dreadnaughts and use vehicle rules.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Yes. Riptides shouldn't have invuln saves. They should work exactly like dreadnoughts.

Stop telling me what my codex should be like. I never asked your opinion. And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like my ideas about your Astartes.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Traditio. They are similar looking units, they are both mechanized. though, because of a simple change in unit type, they operate vastly different. I'm sick of MCs-that-should-be-walkers. just make all Walkers MCs and be done with it, or vice versa.

That's understandable, but it's also completely irrelevant to this thread.

What would be relevant is making suggestions like "Ask your opponent if they're okay with your bringing a Riptide or Stormsurge."

Jewelfox wrote:BTW, chainswords should have Gets Hot

Why? Are chainsaws particularly likely to explode?

and weapons with Sniper should deal Instant Death to helmetless Astartes on a 2+.

Helmetless Astartes don't exist ruleswise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:It's a vehicular-mechanical construct and not an actual creature. They used to actually be called Eldar Dreadnaughts and use vehicle rules.

Call me crazy, but maybe even wraithguard should be walkers. AV 10 all around.

 Jaxler wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Jaxler wrote:I'm of the mind tau shouldn't be nerfed, but other codexes should be buffed.

I completely agree. Codices don't need buffs. Everything should be scaled down to bring the game more in line with a "my army (i.e., this blob of infantry with their vehicles) fights your army (that blob of infantry with their vehicles)" kind of feel. Giant robots and other nonsense like that need to be scaled down. A lot.

Sir, what I'm saying is that tau should be eldar level. So should chaos space marines and orks, everything should be around 7.5 Ed level.

Also I like my riptide, though I feel like common infantry need a place on the table top. I feel like adjusting points could fix this. If anything making them less expensive would help.

Except 7.5 edition level is essentially Apoc, and most things don't do anything in Apoc. 7.5 edition is ridiculous, and there's no sanctioned version of the game that makes basic infantry worth it anymore. Being able to hit on "doesn't matter I hit", spam High S weapons, auto pilot certain units like Wraithknights, have wide access to Ignores Cover (a mechanic that lower tier armies rely on heavily), D weapons making vehicles obsolete, ext.

The game needs to be scaled down, with Apoc being a separate thing.

pm713 wrote:

Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

Wraithlord is 3 Wounds, T8, 3+ and no Inv. So at least it kinda works like a Vehicle which can't be instagibbed or stunned and is vulnerable to most weapons which hurt vehicles too. By contrast, when you compare Riptide and Hammerhead, their durability profiles are completely different and for some reason, Tau don't bother to install same uber-systems which supposedly stop Riptide from getting shaken, stunned or blowing up to their tanks. Strange that.

Traditio wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:BTW, chainswords should have Gets Hot

Why? Are chainsaws particularly likely to explode?

and weapons with Sniper should deal Instant Death to helmetless Astartes on a 2+.

Helmetless Astartes don't exist ruleswise.

Either that, or their heads are as thick as yours.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

Is there any major mechanical difference between a Wraithlord and a Wraithknight?

Well a Wraithknight is a piloted mech and a Wraithlord is basically the body of the soul inside. Wraithlords being vehicles is like saying Space Marines should be vehicles.

Backfire wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

Wraithlord is 3 Wounds, T8, 3+ and no Inv. So at least it kinda works like a Vehicle which can't be instagibbed or stunned and is vulnerable to most weapons which hurt vehicles too. By contrast, when you compare Riptide and Hammerhead, their durability profiles are completely different and for some reason, Tau don't bother to install same uber-systems which supposedly stop Riptide from getting shaken, stunned or blowing up to their tanks. Strange that.

I honestly think it'd be cool to have some mechanical carnage going on with my mechs. With like systems getting disabled, and stuff. It's the most fun thing about BattleTech.

I don't think that any of the other vehicle rules really make sense for a battlesuit, though. It doesn't help that 40k's vehicle rules are awfully clumsy.

Traditio wrote:

Backfire wrote:Yeah, it's got really stupid. They should both fix the vehicle damage AND make units like Riptides vehicles. This would remove the absurdities resulting from Riptide's MC status.

Personally, I like the vehicle damage table. The possibility of exploding vehicles makes you seriously consider whether you should bring that tank or not, where you should position it, etc. Were it not for MC shenanigans, the current vehicle damage chart would make infantry pretty fething attractive.

Problem with Vehicle damage table now is that instant explosion is unlikely which removes the justification of such weapons like Railgun or Demolisher cannons which rely on single penetrating hit.
In 6th Edition tanks were too vulnerable because of Hull points, so they should have fixed the Hull points (+1 HP for every vehicle would have done wonders), instead they 'fixed' the Damage table which did not need fixing. This shafts one-shot big guns even further than they already were by MC's which laughed to such weapons.

pm713 wrote:Well a Wraithknight is a piloted mech and a Wraithlord is basically the body of the soul inside. Wraithlords being vehicles is like saying Space Marines should be vehicles.

1. They're both wraithbone constructs, as are wraithguard. Even if you have a self-driving car, it's still a car.

2. Is the first bit really true? Are wraithknights actually piloted? I was under the impression that the "pilot" basically just hangs out and "talks" to the soul of the eldar inside of the construct. "Hey, bro, we need to take a left. Go that way!" "Affirmative."

pm713 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

Is there any major mechanical difference between a Wraithlord and a Wraithknight?

Well a Wraithknight is a piloted mech and a Wraithlord is basically the body of the soul inside. Wraithlords being vehicles is like saying Space Marines should be vehicles.

I can see Wraithnouns as monstrous creatures. They're quasi-organic walking statues animated by magic. I wouldn't be surprised if they fought on like zombies even after getting dismembered (note: I am not up to date on Eldar fluff and can't say whether or not this is how they're portrayed).

It does make less sense to have battlesuits be MCs, and IMO getting your systems shot up and having to work around them is half the fun of piloting giant mecha. On the other hand, having them use 40k's vehicle rules would make even less sense, fluff-wise, since they use direct neural connections and are as agile as Tau infantry.

I am considering writing variant Riptide rules that use the vehicle damage tables now, partly because that might be more fun and partly because I already wrote variant Nova Reactor rules that were inspired by Evangelion. >_>

I don't care if they are MCs or not. What I care is that these MCs are sucking up three or four or five times as many lascannon hits as their vehicular counterparts. The mechanics of MCs make all single shot anti-tank weapons worthless AND make high ROF weapons an uphill battle. The bizarro grav mechanic is the only thing that is actually effective against them.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they are MCs or not. What I care is that these MCs are sucking up three or four or five times as many lascannon hits as their vehicular counterparts. The mechanics of MCs make all single shot anti-tank weapons worthless AND make high ROF weapons an uphill battle. The bizarro grav mechanic is the only thing that is actually effective against them.

If riptides and wraithknights were vehicles, your lascannons would make them explode when: 1. you score a penetrating hit and 2. you roll a 6.

Not to mention they probably wouldn't have invuln or armor saves.

Maybe, but I don't think that's ever going to change. MCs need more vulnerabilities in general. Taking multiple wounds from powerful weapons like demolisher cannons, railguns, lascannons, etc would be a good general meta fix. We could then actually get rid of grav, because that appears to be all grav is really for.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they are MCs or not. What I care is that these MCs are sucking up three or four or five times as many lascannon hits as their vehicular counterparts. The mechanics of MCs make all single shot anti-tank weapons worthless AND make high ROF weapons an uphill battle. The bizarro grav mechanic is the only thing that is actually effective against them.

And that's why I'd let people know in advance, for pickup games, that I wanted to bring a Riptide. I don't want to blindside them with my bullet sponge Distraction Carnifex, and I don't want them to realize it isn't as powerful as they think it is based on how tough it is to kill without grav.

Honestly the best way to deal with one without Grav is to lock it in melee and then otherwise ignore it. You can put VRT on them to let them disengage, but for that you have to give up like FNP or Interceptor.

 Jewelfox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they are MCs or not. What I care is that these MCs are sucking up three or four or five times as many lascannon hits as their vehicular counterparts. The mechanics of MCs make all single shot anti-tank weapons worthless AND make high ROF weapons an uphill battle. The bizarro grav mechanic is the only thing that is actually effective against them.

And that's why I'd let people know in advance, for pickup games, that I wanted to bring a Riptide. I don't want to blindside them with my bullet sponge Distraction Carnifex, and I don't want them to realize it isn't as powerful as they think it is based on how tough it is to kill without grav.

Honestly the best way to deal with one without Grav is to lock it in melee and then otherwise ignore it. You can put VRT on them to let them disengage, but for that you have to give up like FNP or Interceptor.

You can't live to get to melee though vs Tau. Everything is dead. Plus, the Riptide is hard to catch.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe, but I don't think that's ever going to change. MCs need more vulnerabilities in general. Taking multiple wounds from powerful weapons like demolisher cannons, railguns, lascannons, etc would be a good general meta fix. We could then actually get rid of grav, because that appears to be all grav is really for.

That and killing TEQs.

Honestly you guys, I already know the rules are broken

These responses are not helping me work around their brokenness

Martel732 wrote:
[You can't live to get to melee though vs Tau. Everything is dead. Plus, the Riptide is hard to catch.

Jewelfox keeps suggesting things like short-range grav weapons and assaults.

I don't think that this person fully grasps the idea of what "jump" means in the stat line.