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Sidstyler wrote: Don't like my attitude? Blame the Tau haters. You guys literally killed the fething hobby for me so you're damn right I'm a little bitter about this topic.
Me too truth be told. I'm pretty pissed off too. I just found out my FLGS uses ITC too so I have no options if I ever manage to get there.
So you're pissed off about a local shop using a set of rules that you don't like?
Don't play there then. And quite frankly, it's hilarious seeing you complain about ITC rules when you started up that whole "Operation Pitchfork" crap with Eldar.
Yeah Gamgee, I don't think you're gonna be able to live that one down.
Eldar are every bit as bad as Tau, and in my opinion they're more broken, easily, but trying to get any army "banned" or shunning people who play the "problem" armies like Tau or Eldar is bullgak. This hobby costs way too much for that kind of crap to be a thing.
Kanluwen wrote: The reason why those tournament results are posted is because it's a "Hey, look! See? Tau can't be broken--they didn't even make the top 10!". It's a deflection tactic and a pretty common one.
Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that there's a hell of a lot more going into those lists than what is listed(DA is likely not DA but instead DA, SW, SM for example).
That goes both ways, though. You don't know that all of those Tau lists are 100% Tau, either. I know I saw a picture of at least one Tau army display board from the weekend that had what looked like a small group of Eldar jetbike units attached to it.
I imagine there probably are a lot of Tau armies that are pure Tau because the book really is good enough to run solo like that (which isn't a bad thing, either, ideally EVERY book should be able to run solo), but still.
RayND wrote: Tau are only allowed to have one Stormsurge in Adepticon.
Double WK is okay, but more than 1 SS is not? Makes sense!
Because Eldar "belong" in 40k and Tau allegedly don't, that's why. The more "grimdark" your army is the more bullgak you can pull on people and get away with it, apparently. It's why Space Marines have always been considered a "junk army" even though they never really have been, and they still aren't, either.
BoomWolf wrote: I'm looking at your example army list, and it's just.... Weak. Incredibly so. Nearly no anti tank, nothing to protect yourself from drop pods, no way to deal MCs or TeQ complete lack of markers to boost accuracy and some extremely suboptimal units.
Had I faced this list, despite playing mostly casual, I'd be disappointed. It won't feel a win earned, it will feel a win gifted. And it will be easy, even for my CSM dudes (and I hardly scrap 1850 with them.)
That's the only way to make playing against Tau "fun", though, is to practically give them the game. It seems insulting or patronizing, but when you see what people are complaining about the most in regards to Tau it's the only thing that makes sense.
People hate having to pull models off the table. Seems a silly complaint in a wargame, but if you play with kiddie gloves on and don't make any serious effort to kill anything, your opponent will have more fun because they'll still have most of an army left to assault you with. So you don't take any anti-tank and leave yourself obviously vulnerable to certain units, you either take no upgrades or only take the naff wargear options and use stock weapons, or do something silly like put flamers on all your suits.
People hate riptides/stormsurges and complain that even one is practically impossible to deal with. So you just don't get to take any of your cool, centerpiece models. It sucks if you're into that, and it's unfair, especially when your opponent comes up rocking an IK in his list (which is naturally underpowered as it's an Imperial unit so YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPLAIN DIRTY TAU), but that's how it has to be. Tau are "supposed" to fall like chaff before the wind against the unstoppable might of the Imperium, after all.
People hate markerlights more than anything, and it seems markerlights are quite possibly one of the most broken things in 40k. So you can't take any of them, either, which means altogether about 1/3rd to 1/2 of your codex is strictly off-limits now combined with previous restrictions (no MC/GC units, no broadsides, very few [if any] crisis suits).
You probably shouldn't take any vehicles, either, just in case you go up against a Marine player who feels he shouldn't have to take any anti-tank weapons in his list and thus would find going up against them unfair. Besides, I'm pretty sure someone out there thinks the devilfish is broken anyway. "It has more firepower than a rhino, and it can jink! I don't care how much it costs, that's too fething powerful! Nothing can be better than a rhino! No race in the galaxy is more advanced than the Imperium!"
Wow, that was quite a rant, and you do have some good points. What you failed to do though was convince me of how any of this was specifically my fault.
I didn't write my own codex and give it all these overpowered fanwanky-type rules. I'm not responsible for mass Ignores Cover invalidating an entire army's sole defensive strategy. I'm not responsible for Supporting Fire, nor did I write the rules so that markerlights could specifically be used to boost Overwatch BS (I didn't bring Overwatch back, either). I didn't give myself insanely resilient monsters with AP2 template weapons. I'm not responsible for Synapse being crap or for BA having a gakky codex, nor am I the one holding Chaos back and keeping them firmly in trash tier or punishing the players for "the Sins of Haines" as it were.
Games Workshop is to blame for every single one of your issues. Games Workshop are the only ones to blame for the egregious imbalance in their game, because they specifically are the ones who created it, and the game is solely their responsibility. So why aren't you directing any of that at GW and taking your issues with the game directly to the source? Oh, because GW doesn't give a feck, that's why. They already got your money and they could care less if you never spend another dime on their product again, and they've convinced themselves that people who are concerned with game balance aren't the kind of customers they want anyway. So what to do with all that (justified) anger and frustration at the state of the game and all the money wasted on expensive models? Well, apparently, turn into a fething bully and blame the Tau players who had absolutely no say in how their codex turned out. Blame the ones who aren't hiding within the safety of the Ivory Tower, the only ones you can actually engage with.
Do you feel better now? Do you feel like you did a good thing in reminding me about how fethed your armies are (and some of mine, actually, since I have a small collection of Tyranids myself)? I have Dark Eldar, too, and they're definitely not in a good place, either. I can't do anything about it, though.
Oh, and no one "forgot" about Fish of Fury, either; I had to listen to bullgak about how Tau were "so OP" for YEARS after Fish of Fury stopped being a thing, because people just hated it that fething much (4th edition Eldar were even worse, but as usual people didn't care as much about Eldar being broken as they do about the fact that Tau even exist at all). People still complained about Tau being overpowered well into 5th edition, when in reality trying to play with the army competitively was a struggle, and the only thing keeping Tau at all relevant was the ability to spam 9 broadsides when their gun was still worth a gak, to deal with Marines and Guard and their infamous MSU spam that dominated 5th edition. You had to min/max the gak out of the Tau codex and it only really had one viable build after FoF was fixed. And even then, that was only if the event or store you were playing at allowed you to split fire with them, because I remember there being a period where it was debated whether or not the wargear worked at all because it referenced target priority rules, which no longer existed after 4th edition. Yeah, that's how fething old the previous Tau codex was, we had wargear that just "did nothing". We really needed the 6th edition update no matter what the feth anyone says.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/03 05:02:12
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Sidstyler wrote: Don't like my attitude? Blame the Tau haters. You guys literally killed the fething hobby for me so you're damn right I'm a little bitter about this topic.
Me too truth be told. I'm pretty pissed off too. I just found out my FLGS uses ITC too so I have no options if I ever manage to get there.
So you're pissed off about a local shop using a set of rules that you don't like?
Don't play there then. And quite frankly, it's hilarious seeing you complain about ITC rules when you started up that whole "Operation Pitchfork" crap with Eldar.
Yeah Gamgee, I don't think you're gonna be able to live that one down.
Eldar are every bit as bad as Tau, and in my opinion they're more broken, easily, but trying to get any army "banned" or shunning people who play the "problem" armies like Tau or Eldar is bullgak. This hobby costs way too much for that kind of crap to be a thing.
Kanluwen wrote: The reason why those tournament results are posted is because it's a "Hey, look! See? Tau can't be broken--they didn't even make the top 10!". It's a deflection tactic and a pretty common one.
Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that there's a hell of a lot more going into those lists than what is listed(DA is likely not DA but instead DA, SW, SM for example).
That goes both ways, though. You don't know that all of those Tau lists are 100% Tau, either. I know I saw a picture of at least one Tau army display board from the weekend that had what looked like a small group of Eldar jetbike units attached to it.
I imagine there probably are a lot of Tau armies that are pure Tau because the book really is good enough to run solo like that (which isn't a bad thing, either, ideally EVERY book should be able to run solo), but still.
RayND wrote: Tau are only allowed to have one Stormsurge in Adepticon.
Double WK is okay, but more than 1 SS is not? Makes sense!
Because Eldar "belong" in 40k and Tau allegedly don't, that's why. The more "grimdark" your army is the more bullgak you can pull on people and get away with it, apparently. It's why Space Marines have always been considered a "junk army" even though they never really have been, and they still aren't, either.
BoomWolf wrote: I'm looking at your example army list, and it's just.... Weak. Incredibly so. Nearly no anti tank, nothing to protect yourself from drop pods, no way to deal MCs or TeQ complete lack of markers to boost accuracy and some extremely suboptimal units.
Had I faced this list, despite playing mostly casual, I'd be disappointed. It won't feel a win earned, it will feel a win gifted. And it will be easy, even for my CSM dudes (and I hardly scrap 1850 with them.)
That's the only way to make playing against Tau "fun", though, is to practically give them the game. It seems insulting or patronizing, but when you see what people are complaining about the most in regards to Tau it's the only thing that makes sense.
People hate having to pull models off the table. Seems a silly complaint in a wargame, but if you play with kiddie gloves on and don't make any serious effort to kill anything, your opponent will have more fun because they'll still have most of an army left to assault you with. So you don't take any anti-tank and leave yourself obviously vulnerable to certain units, you either take no upgrades or only take the naff wargear options and use stock weapons, or do something silly like put flamers on all your suits.
People hate riptides/stormsurges and complain that even one is practically impossible to deal with. So you just don't get to take any of your cool, centerpiece models. It sucks if you're into that, and it's unfair, especially when your opponent comes up rocking an IK in his list (which is naturally underpowered as it's an Imperial unit so YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO COMPLAIN DIRTY TAU), but that's how it has to be. Tau are "supposed" to fall like chaff before the wind against the unstoppable might of the Imperium, after all.
People hate markerlights more than anything, and it seems markerlights are quite possibly one of the most broken things in 40k. So you can't take any of them, either, which means altogether about 1/3rd to 1/2 of your codex is strictly off-limits now combined with previous restrictions (no MC/GC units, no broadsides, very few [if any] crisis suits).
You probably shouldn't take any vehicles, either, just in case you go up against a Marine player who feels he shouldn't have to take any anti-tank weapons in his list and thus would find going up against them unfair. Besides, I'm pretty sure someone out there thinks the devilfish is broken anyway. "It has more firepower than a rhino, and it can jink! I don't care how much it costs, that's too fething powerful! Nothing can be better than a rhino! No race in the galaxy is more advanced than the Imperium!"
Wow, that was quite a rant, and you do have some good points. What you failed to do though was convince me of how any of this was specifically my fault.
I didn't write my own codex and give it all these overpowered fanwanky-type rules. I'm not responsible for mass Ignores Cover invalidating an entire army's sole defensive strategy. I'm not responsible for Supporting Fire, nor did I write the rules so that markerlights could specifically be used to boost Overwatch BS (I didn't bring Overwatch back, either). I didn't give myself insanely resilient monsters with AP2 template weapons. I'm not responsible for Synapse being crap or for BA having a gakky codex, nor am I the one holding Chaos back and keeping them firmly in trash tier or punishing the players for "the Sins of Haines" as it were.
Games Workshop is to blame for every single one of your issues. Games Workshop are the only ones to blame for the egregious imbalance in their game, because they specifically are the ones who created it, and the game is solely their responsibility. So why aren't you directing any of that at GW and taking your issues with the game directly to the source? Oh, because GW doesn't give a feck, that's why. They already got your money and they could care less if you never spend another dime on their product again, and they've convinced themselves that people who are concerned with game balance aren't the kind of customers they want anyway. So what to do with all that (justified) anger and frustration at the state of the game and all the money wasted on expensive models? Well, apparently, turn into a fething bully and blame the Tau players who had absolutely no say in how their codex turned out. Blame the ones who aren't hiding within the safety of the Ivory Tower, the only ones you can actually engage with.
Do you feel better now? Do you feel like you did a good thing in reminding me about how fethed your armies are (and some of mine, actually, since I have a small collection of Tyranids myself)? I have Dark Eldar, too, and they're definitely not in a good place, either. I can't do anything about it, though.
Oh, and no one "forgot" about Fish of Fury, either; I had to listen to bullgak about how Tau were "so OP" for YEARS after Fish of Fury stopped being a thing, because people just hated it that fething much (4th edition Eldar were even worse, but as usual people didn't care as much about Eldar being broken as they do about the fact that Tau even exist at all). People still complained about Tau being overpowered well into 5th edition, when in reality trying to play with the army competitively was a struggle, and the only thing keeping Tau at all relevant was the ability to spam 9 broadsides when their gun was still worth a gak, to deal with Marines and Guard and their infamous MSU spam that dominated 5th edition. You had to min/max the gak out of the Tau codex and it only really had one viable build after FoF was fixed. And even then, that was only if the event or store you were playing at allowed you to split fire with them, because I remember there being a period where it was debated whether or not the wargear worked at all because it referenced target priority rules, which no longer existed after 4th edition. Yeah, that's how fething old the previous Tau codex was, we had wargear that just "did nothing". We really needed the 6th edition update no matter what the feth anyone says.
I am sorry you feel like the entire world is against you in regards to your Tau, however the point of this thread was how to make it fun to play against Tau. And the answer is, Stop taking optimized units. Im sorry you want to field your riptide wing, but guess what its OP gak that GW should have nerfed but can't because "reasons". If all of your MC's and GMC's were vehicles it would be a different story, but since they get to be special snowflakes and qualify as MC's and GMC instead of vehicles they are OP. Please rant to me how a giant Gundam Wing Mech isn't a Vehicle its a creature because "More reasons"
Don't take Broadsides if you can help it, or if you have to take them because you like the way they look and what not, then don't load them out as Missilesides. Nothing worse then saying "Hey Im ignoring your cover save and oh, I don't have to have LOS to hit them"
And finally, for troops, feel free to take crisis suits, but again don't optimize them, but just to put this in perspective. If my army had access to firewarriors I would SPAM the crap out of them because they are amazing at what they do. Hell for a few points a single squad of firewarriors can take out a fething Imperial Knight.
In a wargame nobody enjoys packing up their army before they get to do anything, im sorry you don't see it that way but most of us like playing the game not moving turn 1 and then packing everything up after it gets riddles on turn 2.
I feel like a kroot army w/ krootux shaper hounds kroot or an army of drones could be fun-gun drones marker light and sniper, or lots of vehicles like pihrannas and hammerheads. I find firewarriors are too easy to fight and the crisis suits are just irritating
As a Thing, no-one argues that C:SM is a bad codex (and if they do you have every right to ridicule the gak out of them for it because their either stupidly, utterly uninformed or are lying.) The point that people make is that most actual Space Marines, aka Assault Marines, Tactical Marines, Devestator Marines, ect. are kinda terrible because they die to most massed shooting almost as much as every other kind of infantry, have the second worst basic weapon out of any army (only one worse is the Lazgun,) and still cost a ton to bring. The only thing good about ground marines right now is Free Razorbacks and OS Drop pods, which is stupid but should tell you something. Every boot on the ground for Marines is a tax to get the few good options in the codex, just like most codexes. The fact is, and the idea that people argue, is that troops being a tax to take more OP bullgak is not ok. tau actually CAN run a good infantry list with Firewarrior mass gunline, and personally I would love to play against one. Who cares if you only play one of three phases, your bringing an army that actually looks like an army, and not just a collection of massive suits. I'd love to do you the same courtesy, You agree not to take MCs and GMCs and I'll leave the knights and vindicators at home
Here's an analogy. How can you make a game of chess fun, if one side has 8 rooks? That's what Tau is like.
The answer isn't really "Take Eldar!" which would be like taking all queens (in more ways than one...)
The answer isn't really "Make Assault better", because then Tau would be bottom-of the barrel bad.
Seriously, a single-faceted army is usually boring to play against. I'd love to play against Gamgee because he likes more interesting lists than I usually see.
The real answer? A complete re-design, significantly reducing Tau's ignore-everything power and overall shooting and have more of their units able to survive assault.
So, I need to limit myself to no MCs, no efficient units and no strategy and in return I can be promised no superheavies?
Oh, so very kind of you. Truly you are such a benevolent ruler. Would you like to write my list while at it? /sarcasm
I also find it amusing how tau basic infantry are apparently good enough to be useful and imperial ones are "worthless tax", given that marine scouts beat fire warriors in durability, cc, mobility, transport, upgrade options and nearly match in straight shooting.
CSM, tyranids and blood angels are crushed by tau?
Wow. You know who else crushes them?
Eldar,DA, daemons and codex marines, who all outperform tau lately. Also by necron, khorne space wolves and admech who are preforming almost as well as tau lately.
I'm counting 8 other codcies expect tau who crush your armies just as well, and do not receive any of the hate treatment you dedicate to tau. So feth you.
I'll keep my own CSM. on the bench until they'll get updated rather than throw blame on a random easy victim that people like to hate.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Um... Scouts are not better than fire warriors, especially with shooting. You make up for the drops in duability by being cheaper, coming in larger units, and having longer range Str5 Guns. Also, etherials and fireblades exist to male them even better. Also Also, I was talking about tactical marines, which outside of a GSF are pretty much in every way worse than their equivelents from the pther codexes barring CSM. Also Also Also, I said nights because I asked for no Stormsurge, the Tau equivelent. There isn't really a Riptide equivalent (dreads are terrible so I didn't count them) and so I said I wouldn't bring the arguably best of the shooty tanks in the Vindicator. Id also assume neither pf us is taking OP as all hell formations or spam lists, which again I'd be happy to do.
Swampmist wrote: As a Thing, no-one argues that C:SM is a bad codex (and if they do you have every right to ridicule the gak out of them for it because their either stupidly, utterly uninformed or are lying.) The point that people make is that most actual Space Marines, aka Assault Marines, Tactical Marines, Devestator Marines, ect. are kinda terrible because they die to most massed shooting almost as much as every other kind of infantry, have the second worst basic weapon out of any army (only one worse is the Lazgun,) and still cost a ton to bring. The only thing good about ground marines right now is Free Razorbacks and OS Drop pods, which is stupid but should tell you something. Every boot on the ground for Marines is a tax to get the few good options in the codex, just like most codexes. The fact is, and the idea that people argue, is that troops being a tax to take more OP bullgak is not ok. tau actually CAN run a good infantry list with Firewarrior mass gunline, and personally I would love to play against one. Who cares if you only play one of three phases, your bringing an army that actually looks like an army, and not just a collection of massive suits. I'd love to do you the same courtesy, You agree not to take MCs and GMCs and I'll leave the knights and vindicators at home
You also going to leave all your drop pods and tanks at home? Most players hate the Tau gunline and say it's no fun to play vs it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Swampmist wrote: Um... Scouts are not better than fire warriors, especially with shooting. You make up for the drops in duability by being cheaper, coming in larger units, and having longer range Str5 Guns. Also, etherials and fireblades exist to male them even better. Also Also, I was talking about tactical marines, which outside of a GSF are pretty much in every way worse than their equivelents from the pther codexes barring CSM. Also Also Also, I said nights because I asked for no Stormsurge, the Tau equivelent. There isn't really a Riptide equivalent (dreads are terrible so I didn't count them) and so I said I wouldn't bring the arguably best of the shooty tanks in the Vindicator. Id also assume neither pf us is taking OP as all hell formations or spam lists, which again I'd be happy to do.
Scouts are not that much more than FW have higher BS and sniper rifles have longer range and SM ignore so much with ATSKNF.
Leadership is one of Tau weak spots and etherials give out VP like candy. Hell with so many here rules about all tau can take are
die in droves FW and flyers who most players hate anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/03 07:07:57
2000 6000 with Reaver Titan guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
2500 (trimming down in 8th)
TS 30k at 5k points
Yes I have a problem
2016/04/03 07:14:04
Subject: Re:How to make it fun to play against Tau?
Vankraken wrote: This discussion got really salty which is honestly a huge shame that as a community we can't stop throwing gak at each other and instead focus on trying to have fun.
Tau players: Its important to know that Tau are a very strong codex and in the realm of the "have vs have not" codexes Tau in particular dumpster the have not dexes incredibly hard with their ranged firepower, durable and/or cost effective units, having all of their strength front loaded into their shooting power (which is the most powerful phase in the game currently and the easier to deal damage with), and their easy access to special rules like Ignores Cover that fully negates certain armies entire defense (Dark Eldar, Nids, Orks, Guard).
I acknowledge that. I know Tau are currently pretty powerful and hard to deal with. A lot of that has to do with the core rules, too; the core rules have changed as such that shooting is naturally more powerful than assault-oriented strategies, and the prevalence of Ignores Cover (which is also a pretty broken rule) doesn't help things, either.
Vankraken wrote: Tau are generally not found participating in melee combat or contesting objectives so the majority of the interaction with Tau is through shooting while close combat for the most part is taking heavy overwatch casualties to then usually sweep the unit (unless its a riptide which might get locked in combat or a stormsurge which proceeds to stomp everything to death because stomp is gak).
Yes, because that's how the army was designed. You don't see Tau getting into close combat because they weren't meant to. Nothing in the Tau codex is made for close combat, and expecting Tau players to eschew their army's only strength and play the army in a way that wasn't intended, rushing into close combat and trying to beat everyone to the charge basically, a way that will surely cause the Tau player to lose the game since we do all of our damage in the shooting phase alone...that's not reasonable. It's asinine, even. But that's what people expect from us and when we don't play that way they get mad, and they think we're deliberately trying to ruin their fun and be dicks to them, instead of acknowledging it for what it is: a complete failure in game design. Yeah, winning isn't everything, that's for sure, but no one spends hundreds of dollars building an army for a game with the intent to always lose, either. I still want to win the game as much as you do, and I want to "earn" it, too. I don't want to be accused of only doing well because of the strength of my codex. But I'm not gonna throw a game and play like a gak, either.
The only thing that you would kinda want in combat is the stormsurge, and I'm pretty damn sure that wasn't GW's intention when they designed the unit and covered it in absurd amounts of guns and missiles, either. It just so happened to be the most optimal way to use it because it's a very resilient GC that can Stomp on fools.
Vankraken wrote: It is frustrating to play against that if your army lacks the tools to bypass the whole "move up the field while getting shoot to death" thing and its not fun ultimately playing with half your army because the other half dies before they can do anything except be a bullet stop. Tau armies generally don't create a lot of interaction between the players and its expecially bad with the big suits as they tend to not die easily which removes another fun aspect of the game for the opponent (putting a dent into the enemy army). While Tau might not be the best army (Eldar hold that honor of being king of cheese hill) they are still incredibly strong and they are one of the few codexes that generally has great options all around with only a few stinker units (those flyers are made of gak). It really rubs people the wrong way (myself included) when you hear about Tau players complaining that Fire Warriors aren't good or that Crisis Suits just aren't worth taking when in most other armies those units would be auto includes. Also stop using tournament results as a barometer of how good a codex is. Tournament play is often times about how much you can pull off and just because your codex doesn't have rerolling 2+ invisible death stars or 600 points of free obsec models doesn't change the fact that your army can table a Dark Eldar player on turn 2.
Understood. But again, this is how the army was designed. It didn't used to be fun for the Tau player, either, when everything went right for the other player in older editions...some bad deployment or bad dice in the shooting phase and then the Tau player gets to sit back and watch as their army is removed from the table without being able to do a damn thing about it, other than rolling pointless dice and putting models back in the case as they get beat up by guys with sticks and swords. It gets even worse when you go back to 4th and it was possible for one unit to roll through your whole army one squad after another, being able to consolidate into new units, when charge ranges weren't random and there was no Overwatch. You could try to space your army out to minimize the damage, but then that leaves big gaps in your line, perfect for deep strikers. You could try to deal with that by wasting points on large, sacrificial units of Kroot to act as speed bumps essentially, but then that wouldn't be a very "thematic" way to play Tau since, in older fluff at least, Tau didn't believe in that concept of "sacrificial units" and didn't needlessly waste lives like that. Kroot weren't slaves that they shove in the way to act as their meat shields, which is how they were often used on the tabletop.
Martel732 wrote: It's like if in 3rd I kept Rhino rushing with BA over and over and then wondered why people would get upset. Hey, it's just what my list did, right? Just like Tau just shoot people off the table with no recourse. Particularly lower end lists that basically can't shoot back in any meaningful way and can't survive to assault. But hey, that's just what Tau do, right?
It's funny you say that, since I'm pretty sure the 3rd edition BA rhino rush did invalidate Tau pretty hard back then (and lots of other armies). And yeah, that's just how it was, you couldn't really do anything about it except stop playing the game if you didn't like it.
You ever notice all those people claiming that 40k was never balanced? It's because 40k was never balanced. BA used to be bullgak and Tau mediocre at best, and now it's the other way around. This kinda crap has been happening for as long as 40k has been a game. Some armies are on top during some editions, then gak happens and other armies rise up to take their place while they fall down to the bottom. Some armies are always on top, others almost always on the bottom, for whatever reason.
Tau had their turn being in the middle/bottom, now they're on top. It's not going to last, and when Tau do fall it's probably going to be hard. And since we just got two updates back-to-back like we did, we'll probably be waiting a long time before we get brought back up when that happens.
SemperMortis wrote: I am sorry you feel like the entire world is against you in regards to your Tau, however the point of this thread was how to make it fun to play against Tau. And the answer is, Stop taking optimized units. Im sorry you want to field your riptide wing, but guess what its OP gak that GW should have nerfed but can't because "reasons". If all of your MC's and GMC's were vehicles it would be a different story, but since they get to be special snowflakes and qualify as MC's and GMC instead of vehicles they are OP. Please rant to me how a giant Gundam Wing Mech isn't a Vehicle its a creature because "More reasons"
You're talking to the wrooong guy. I can't even field a riptide wing in the first place, nor would I want to.
As for why suits are MC's or GC's instead of vehicles? feth if I know, ask GW, they made them that way. I know crisis suits and broadsides don't have vehicle stats because they're basically wearing a larger version of Space Marine power armor, and even have comparable stat lines to Marines if I'm not mistaken. They're heavy infantry, even though the broadside now is almost as big as a dreadnought. If you can justify a crisis suit being a walker then Marines should be walkers. And on that note, why aren't bikes vehicles with armor values and hull points?
Honestly if I had to guess I'd say the only reason the bigger suits have MC/GC stats now is because GW figured that units with walker rules wouldn't sell, because they usually don't. They have to stick them in battleforces or Start Collecting bundles to get rid of them because no one wants them otherwise.
JimOnMars wrote: Here's an analogy. How can you make a game of chess fun, if one side has 8 rooks? That's what Tau is like.
The answer isn't really "Take Eldar!" which would be like taking all queens (in more ways than one...)
The answer isn't really "Make Assault better", because then Tau would be bottom-of the barrel bad.
Seriously, a single-faceted army is usually boring to play against. I'd love to play against Gamgee because he likes more interesting lists than I usually see.
The real answer? A complete re-design, significantly reducing Tau's ignore-everything power and overall shooting and have more of their units able to survive assault.
Yep. And you know what? Not happening. Not anytime soon, and probably never will, either, just because something like that would require some actual effort on GW's part instead of copy/pasting all the same gak that was originally printed in 3rd edition and just bolting on the sloppy new rules they made for whatever new kits they want to sell, like they've been doing.
Tau just got an update, and that pissed people off enough as it is. Even if GW "fixed" them and made them a better army to play against, people would be absolutely livid, and just the fact that they're getting so much attention would be enough to cancel out whatever good the changes to the rules would do. Even Tau players would rightfully be angry, at having just spent all that money updating to 7th, replacing a codex that was barely two years old anyway, and having to buy ANOTHER book within less than a year after that! And then we'd be told off for acting spoiled, not appreciating the boon that GW has given us.
Not only that but it would be kinda sad that it had to come to that anyway, since the whole disdain for close combat is part of what made Tau unique in the first place. Taking that away would probably be better for the game, but it would feel kinda...I dunno, cheap? Lazy? "We tried to do something different and it didn't work, so here, we're just gonna make them high-tech Space Marines instead. We'll depower their guns and buff them just enough so they don't get swept in combat, make them more generalist."
They'd fit the stereotype more, too..."Oh, the 'anime army' has futuristic guns and mecha suits, and they also fight up-close with laser katanas? You don't say..." Of course if GW gave a damn about that they wouldn't have gone Gundam like they did, either.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Thats what people are saying. Tau are fundamentally flawed because they only care about ONE phase. A tac army can't exist in a army that only cares about shooting, GW realized this and were like "we can fix that by giving them shooting and movement in the assault phase! This way they don't feel left out!" the irony is palpable. OF COURSE the only way to make it a more fun list is to take a list that doesn't play up your strength fully, NO gak BECAUSE YOU HAVE ONLY SHOOTING UNITS TO BEGIN WITH.
They are flawed design philosophy that in concept seems like it would encourage variety in an opponents list, but they really do nothing but try to make sure the opponent can't do anything without being punished. Deep strike - interceptor, Horde - pieplates, - Vehicle - everything in their arsenal, LoS - SMS. There is no ANSWER to Tau, only the hope that you aren't killed fast enough to do something.
And don't go off and say Tau are ONLY currently pretty powerful, you had Taudar for a goddamn long time.
Sid this line right here
"As for why suits are MC's or GC's instead of vehicles? feth if I know, ask GW, they made them that way. I know crisis suits and broadsides don't have vehicle stats because they're basically wearing a larger version of Space Marine power armor, and even have comparable stat lines to Marines if I'm not mistaken. They're heavy infantry, even though the broadside now is almost as big as a dreadnought. If you can justify a crisis suit being a walker then Marines should be walkers. And on that note, why aren't bikes vehicles with armor values and hull points?"
That is a fuckin strawman and we all know it, you got nothing just the attitude people hate in player of any game.
You ask everyone to play the game the way YOU want it to played but ignore everyone else, do you not see this.. "asinine" thought process here?
Yes, we are telling people to play the game "our" way by telling them they shouldn't field thier good units, or units that don't fit our tastes on how thier army should be, and we are definitely trying to promote rewriting other codcies to be nothing like thier fluff, flavor or play style because we can't handle it.
And tau have no answers, that's why tau dominate tournaments. Targeting leadership doesn't work. Fast assault doesn't work. Multiassault doesn't work. Target saturation doesn't work. MSU doesn't work. Coordination doesn't work. All the "advice" we give people on forums are sly lies means to confuse you and you are so clever to stick to your old tactics you used back in 5th.
Taudar was also completely tau's fault. Not at all related to eldar psyker buffs flying around on units never designed to work with psykers because the allies system in 6th allowed some awkward combinations. The allies system did not change from that day on so now just eldar, chaos and IoM gain any real benefits, and eldar totally vanished once Taudar stopped being relevant,unlike how tau dominate the competitive scene.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/03 08:48:54
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2016/04/03 08:49:43
Subject: Re:How to make it fun to play against Tau?
We expect, nay demand, some civility towards other posters.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
2000 
6000 with Reaver Titan 
guard 2k
2500 (imperial force)
you can pull off and just because your codex doesn't have rerolling 2+ invisible death stars or 600 points of free obsec models doesn't change the fact that your army can table a Dark Eldar player on turn 2.
