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Came up in a tactics thread on how to use Vanguard Veterans.

Saythings said "double vets that can charge out of deep strike Turn 1 on a 4+ and automatically any other turn." I actually think they could automatically choose to pass/fail their turn 1 reserve roll granted by the Sons of Corax detachment.

Relevant rules:
Sons of Corax strike force rule = "Know When To Strike: If any units from this detachment start the game in reserve, you can choose to make a Reserve Roll for any of them at the start of your first turn. If the roll is 4+, the unit arrives this turn. Otherwise it remains in reserve and is rolled for normally."

Shadowstrike Kill Team detachment rule = "On Time...: Instead of rolling to see whether a unit of Vanguard Veterans from this formation arrives from Reserve, you can choose whether to pass or fail that roll."

It says pretty explicitly (with capital letters even!) the Know When To Strike roll is a reserves roll, so the "On Time..." rule should be allowed to autopass that turn 1 roll.

Right? What say you?

Not a ravenguard player but the way those rules are set out makes it look like they are for two different detachments, so you would have one detachment automatically coming in on turn two and another having a 50/50 to come in on turn one.

Please correct me if these two rules can be taken by the same unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If a unit can take both rules then I would agree that they can automatically come on turn one.

The "Sons of Corax" thing is like the Gladius Strike Force. You have to take 1-2 "Core" formations, 1+ Auxiliary formations and 0-2 Command formations.

Shadowstrike Kill Team is an eligible auxiliary formation to bring within the "Sons of Corax" force organization.

Sons of Corax=Talon Strike Force. But yes, this is a viable tactic. As is first-turn DSing storm ravens.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Not a ravenguard player but the way those rules are set out makes it look like they are for two different detachments, so you would have one detachment automatically coming in on turn two and another having a 50/50 to come in on turn one.

Please correct me if these two rules can be taken by the same unit.

It appears that they are from two different detachments.

However, since one is a Choice detachment which includes the other as an Auxiliary, so units in that Auxiliary would receive the Command Benefit and Special Rules of both.

... Ouch. Deathwing is feeling the pain on this one.

 Swampmist wrote:
Sons of Corax=Talon Strike Force. But yes, this is a viable tactic. As is first-turn DSing storm ravens.

That brings up another question and if it doesn't get answered here, I guess we can make a new thread about it.

But, could you assault out of a deep striking storm raven? The vehicle moves at Cruising speed as per the changes in 7E to deep strike, so the squad should be able to disembark and because it's an assault vehicle, I am struggling to find a relevant rule that would STOP them from charging.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Sons of Corax=Talon Strike Force. But yes, this is a viable tactic. As is first-turn DSing storm ravens.

That brings up another question and if it doesn't get answered here, I guess we can make a new thread about it.

But, could you assault out of a deep striking storm raven? The vehicle moves at Cruising speed as per the changes in 7E to deep strike, so the squad should be able to disembark and because it's an assault vehicle, I am struggling to find a relevant rule that would STOP them from charging.

No, this is covered in the Deep Strike special rules section, under transports and Deep Strike.

But what about vanguard vets from a kill team? As far as I know, it would work.

 Swampmist wrote:
But what about vanguard vets from a kill team? As far as I know, it would work.

Why wouldn't it?
They have explicit permission to ignore that restriction, so they can charge on turn 1 IF they arrived from deep strike reserves.

Or are you trying to put the Veterans inside of a DSing Storm Raven? I mean that's probably possible, but why would you do that? Cratch that, I found out why.

So you could put something which automatically arrives inside a regularily arriving transport. As you're free to choose WHICH of the units makes the actual role, you could deep strike a Vet Squad inside a Storm Raven and even attach ICs if there's room for them, and simply pick the Vets to "roll" for reserves - and since they automatically arrive (or not), that result will bring in the entire thingy.
I think there's something similar with Grey Knights allying to some Space Marine stuff, so I'd say that's entirely RAW, even though it probably wasn't meant to work that way.

You get to bring it in automatically turn one, with ICs (who probably can't charge) and a dreadnaught on the back. Also, I think there's an argument for having no-scatter, since the vanguard CAN still be within range of two scout squads while in a transport. Not sure on that one though.

Indeed, scouts can have used their deployment to get somewhere you wan to go

Or use Belial and use his no scatter ability, and then charge (presuming the rule allows the UNIT to chare, and does not require every model in the unit to be...)

It's one of those weird ones where ut specifies the unit entry of vamguard cets, so is very much up to debate.

Not really, then.

The unit of VV remains, no matter how many ICs you join to the unit - it is, and always will be, a vanguard vet unit.

So if the unit is permitted to charge, so is any attached IC

Now, ITC houseruled that you cant do this - likely for "balance" reasons (as it doesnt affect Eldar, which ITC seems to love to death) - whereas ETC play rules as written. So, as ever, discuss...

There has been a massive debate about it, so tournaments tend to er on the side of caution. Either way, its a great delivery service.

Some tournaments houserule, some err on the side of the rules such as ETC ones.

Its mostly a debate when people a) dont understnad the difference between a rule granted to a unit, and one granted to the models of a unit and b) where people decry the power of it.

@Iron_Warden: I knew I was missing something in plain sight. Thanks. I was too hyper focused on the section "deep strike and transports" but it's actually in the previous section so I kept glancing over it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Some tournaments houserule, some err on the side of the rules such as ETC ones.

Its mostly a debate when people a) dont understnad the difference between a rule granted to a unit, and one granted to the models of a unit and b) where people decry the power of it.

Can we please agree to stop this ridiculous "you're stupid because you interpret a rule different" tone? I'm firmly on your side when it comes to the actual interpretation of the rules as written, but I'm also able to see why people come to a different conclusion, and there's really no need to insult anyone over a rules dispute.

Why not just leave it at "ask your TO or discuss it with your group, there's no universally accepted ruling until such a day that GW starts releasing FAQs and erratas again". Anything else just leads to a massive circlejerk of "Incorrect!" - "No, you're incorrect!".

There has been a massive debate about it, so tournaments tend to er on the side of caution. Either way, its a great delivery service.