Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The British Brown Bess musket, regular small arms of the British Empire (and its spinoffs, including the United States of America) since the early days of 'Industrial Revolution' (or a littlebit before that), also known to be one of the earliest British industrial exports, is known to remain in active service for 200 years and even in the early days of mass-produced rifles! The wiki said that the final upgrade was in 1839--percussion caplock upgrade (too bad the fire incident in the Tower of London, it burned much of the flintlock Brown bess stored there... scheduled for the caplock conversions). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess . yet the same source suggested that in 1861, during American Civil War. The Confederate troops (possibly a militia unit rather than regulars) used ones in the Battle of Shiloh. And by the end of the ACW, trapdoor breechloader conversions became a norm to upgrade the large numbers of existing rifled muskets (which many were converted from smoothbore...)

1. Are the brownbess found in the hands of Johnny Rebs an original weapon since the colonial era? are these weapons still flintlock or already converted to percussion lock? (if so, who converted these guns?)
2. Did the 1839 pattern 'Tower Brown Bess' get more upgrades into rifle and trapdoor breechloader afterwards? If not, why? were these weapons too fragile to get more upgrades? or did the British government chose to perserve the remaining Brown bess?
3. By the time the USA began its industrialization (1830s I think), Is there any organized attempts to modernize these ages old muskets inherited from the Colonial era ? Did Springfield Armory convert any existing Brown Bess owned by the Armed Forces along with a large numbers of other European flintlock fusils? (such as the French Charleville 1777, M1752 Miquelets, Prussian Potsdam fusil (ones that the revolutionary looted from the Hessian mercs, not those bought during American Civil War)? And what are the final upgraded versions of these weapons? did these weapons finally become Springfield Model 1866?

Some US troops had smoothbore muskets at Gettysburg. I don't know what make or model.

 Lone Cat wrote:
The British Brown Bess musket, regular small arms of the British Empire (and its spinoffs, including the United States of America) since the early days of 'Industrial Revolution' (or a littlebit before that), also known to be one of the earliest British industrial exports, is known to remain in active service for 200 years and even in the early days of mass-produced rifles! The wiki said that the final upgrade was in 1839--percussion caplock upgrade (too bad the fire incident in the Tower of London, it burned much of the flintlock Brown bess stored there... scheduled for the caplock conversions). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess . yet the same source suggested that in 1861, during American Civil War. The Confederate troops (possibly a militia unit rather than regulars) used ones in the Battle of Shiloh. And by the end of the ACW, trapdoor breechloader conversions became a norm to upgrade the large numbers of existing rifled muskets (which many were converted from smoothbore...)

1. Are the brownbess found in the hands of Johnny Rebs an original weapon since the colonial era? are these weapons still flintlock or already converted to percussion lock? (if so, who converted these guns?)
2. Did the 1839 pattern 'Tower Brown Bess' get more upgrades into rifle and trapdoor breechloader afterwards? If not, why? were these weapons too fragile to get more upgrades? or did the British government chose to perserve the remaining Brown bess?
3. By the time the USA began its industrialization (1830s I think), Is there any organized attempts to modernize these ages old muskets inherited from the Colonial era ? Did Springfield Armory convert any existing Brown Bess owned by the Armed Forces along with a large numbers of other European flintlock fusils? (such as the French Charleville 1777, M1752 Miquelets, Prussian Potsdam fusil (ones that the revolutionary looted from the Hessian mercs, not those bought during American Civil War)? And what are the final upgraded versions of these weapons? did these weapons finally become Springfield Model 1866?

Contrary to popular myth, arms on both sides, (especially early in the war on the Union side) was a hodge podge of rifles, muskets, rebored muskets to rifles, shotguns, breech loading paper cartridge arms, breech loading brass/copper arms, and even several types of repeaters. On top of that, there were cap loaders, tape loader (kind of like a real world cap gun ignition system that was not successful) and even flint loaders. Both sides initially relied on militias which brought with them this logistics masters' nightmare.

On the CSA side they imported a variety of arms from anyone. I'd imagine any Brown Besses were likely craptacular imports from Britain. The US Army had already gone through its own type of smoothbores, tape fed smooth bores, and was into minie ball rifles and breech loaders when the ACW started (all fifteen guys in the Army at that time).

 Frazzled wrote:

 Lone Cat wrote:
The British Brown Bess musket, regular small arms of the British Empire (and its spinoffs, including the United States of America) since the early days of 'Industrial Revolution' (or a littlebit before that), also known to be one of the earliest British industrial exports, is known to remain in active service for 200 years and even in the early days of mass-produced rifles! The wiki said that the final upgrade was in 1839--percussion caplock upgrade (too bad the fire incident in the Tower of London, it burned much of the flintlock Brown bess stored there... scheduled for the caplock conversions). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Bess . yet the same source suggested that in 1861, during American Civil War. The Confederate troops (possibly a militia unit rather than regulars) used ones in the Battle of Shiloh. And by the end of the ACW, trapdoor breechloader conversions became a norm to upgrade the large numbers of existing rifled muskets (which many were converted from smoothbore...)

1. Are the brownbess found in the hands of Johnny Rebs an original weapon since the colonial era? are these weapons still flintlock or already converted to percussion lock? (if so, who converted these guns?)
2. Did the 1839 pattern 'Tower Brown Bess' get more upgrades into rifle and trapdoor breechloader afterwards? If not, why? were these weapons too fragile to get more upgrades? or did the British government chose to perserve the remaining Brown bess?
3. By the time the USA began its industrialization (1830s I think), Is there any organized attempts to modernize these ages old muskets inherited from the Colonial era ? Did Springfield Armory convert any existing Brown Bess owned by the Armed Forces along with a large numbers of other European flintlock fusils? (such as the French Charleville 1777, M1752 Miquelets, Prussian Potsdam fusil (ones that the revolutionary looted from the Hessian mercs, not those bought during American Civil War)? And what are the final upgraded versions of these weapons? did these weapons finally become Springfield Model 1866?

Contrary to popular myth, arms on both sides, (especially early in the war on the Union side) was a hodge podge of rifles, muskets, rebored muskets to rifles, shotguns, breech loading paper cartridge arms, breech loading brass/copper arms, and even several types of repeaters. On top of that, there were cap loaders, tape loader (kind of like a real world cap gun ignition system that was not successful) and even flint loaders. Both sides initially relied on militias which brought with them this logistics masters' nightmare.

On the CSA side they imported a variety of arms from anyone. I'd imagine any Brown Besses were likely craptacular imports from Britain. The US Army had already gone through its own type of smoothbores, tape fed smooth bores, and was into minie ball rifles and breech loaders when the ACW started (all fifteen guys in the Army at that time).

1. So even in the same company did the troops uses a VERY different long firearms? Ex. in the Line Infantry company of 120 men strong, 53 might be equipped with Brown Bess, 22 uses Lorenz, 20 had 1851 Enfield, and the remainder had Sharps breechloaders. was this scenario in this example a common practice instead of uniformly equipped men (ideally)?
2. Even that the Industry on the Union side did not keep pace with the mass mobilization especially in the 1861 when the war broke out. There were arms shortages to the point that the Union had to pruchase a large quantity of secondhand Prussian Potsdam (and even Flintlock) fusils (Mostly the model 1809) via G2G deals (And Bismarc was eager to do gunrunning since the Prussians already upgraded their troops with Dreyse breechloader needleguns by the 1850s!!!!! and began exporting Dreyse to other allied German states), and freshly manufactured British Enfield 1851 and Austrian Lorenz rifled muskets (both with G2G deals, private contractors, and even gunrunners). I'm not sure if the imported Potsdam got the rifling in addition to percussion caps upgrade but Potsdam muskets were the Union-exclusives.

1. So even in the same company did the troops uses a VERY different long firearms? Ex. in the Line Infantry company of 120 men strong, 53 might be equipped with Brown Bess, 22 uses Lorenz, 20 had 1851 Enfield, and the remainder had Sharps breechloaders. was this scenario in this example a common practice instead of uniformly equipped men (ideally)?

Far easier to answer on the Union side. There units would have had similar armaments. Further, as time wore on units with non uniform armaments would have upgraded (or been shot to pieces). This did not stop units from "self upgrading" especially with repeaters. Whole formations-especially cavalry-upgraded to repeaters etc.

The CSA side, well units would generally have similar arms, but this was not always the case and things tended to deteriorate over time. Thats what happens when you fight the Holy Triumvirate of Grant, Sherman, and Thomas.

2. Even that the Industry on the Union side did not keep pace with the mass mobilization especially in the 1861 when the war broke out. There were arms shortages to the point that the Union had to pruchase a large quantity of secondhand Prussian Potsdam (and even Flintlock) fusils (Mostly the model 1809) via G2G deals (And Bismarc was eager to do gunrunning since the Prussians already upgraded their troops with Dreyse breechloader needleguns by the 1850s!!!!! and began exporting Dreyse to other allied German states), and freshly manufactured British Enfield 1851 and Austrian Lorenz rifled muskets (both with G2G deals, private contractors, and even gunrunners). I'm not sure if the imported Potsdam got the rifling in addition to percussion caps upgrade but Potsdam muskets were the Union-exclusives.

Interestingly, France bought a large amount of ACW era breechloaders from the US in its short lived Franco Prussian war.

The most used weapons of the Civil War were the Springfield 1861 and the Enfield 1853. Together that account for more than all other weapons combined.

I doubt any Brown Bess rifles made it into the 19th century hands of Americans. During the Revolution they were very common but afterwards American arms manufacturing came into its own, and most Americans who needed a rifle probably bought domestic rather than imported. By the 1800s Springfields were probably the most commonly owned rifles in the US owing to the huge popularity for the 1795 model Springfield. EDIT: Plus interchangeable parts eventually came in, and any pre-interchangeable parts fire arms were likely quickly phased out of the market.

The first year or so of the Civil War was more literally a war between the states. Every state raised regiments, often for short terms, that were armed and equipped and uniformed as the state saw fit, or often as a wealthy sponsor saw fit.

By late 1861 through 1862, the Union Army began to homogenize under McClellan. Enlistments began to run for three years, or even for the duration. Rifled muskets became standard, at least for those units that did not choose other weapons. By about a year in, any Union troops using pre-war militia arms was doing so out of preference.

On the southern side, while muskets were never the limiting factor in the way that men (and at the end, food) were, there wasn't the ability to wholesale trade in arms. Regiments would be more hodge podge, and smoothbore muskets were more common well into 1862 (there's plenty of evidence of them at Antietam, for example)

It also wasn't unheard of for local, older men to fall in with the army when battles came near them. They might use the older flintlocks they kept from prior wars.

Good post Polonius.

Here's a link to one of the more famous veterans, John Burns. He was 69, a veteran of the war of 1812, and had already been rejected for service in the Union army due to age. He'd served as a teamster for a while, but was back home in Gettysburg when the battle occurred. He had his old flintlock, and fell in with a Pennsylvania regiment. He was wounded and captured, but released shortly after.

http://www.army.mil/gettysburg/profiles/burns.html