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Well, I just got spectacularly insulted in a different thread, so I'm going to put my rules interpretation here, and let Dakka test it.

Void shield generators are explicitly stated as have a 12" area of effect. Void Shield Generator rules that says that any "shooting attack that originates from outside the Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected Void Shield." TARGET, not UNIT.

Now to me, I thought this was pretty straight forward, is all or part of my model within 12" of the VSG, if so, and I hit it, I hit the void shield instead. If not, then I hit the model as standard.

Nowhere in the VSG generator rules does it allow for the area of effect to be extended for greater than 12".

Am i missing something?

You don't target models, you target units so yes its units

All AoEs in 40k affect unit. If they mean models it would have said models

They use neither the word models nor unit, but say "hits a target." I read this is basically the same thing as cover. I hit the front two dudes, they are not in cover, I kill them, the next two dudes are in cover and get their cover save.

I do not believe that there is a portion of the BRB that states that AoE always covers a whole unit. Bear in my mind that the Ork KFF specifically lists that it is only MODELS within 6" of the bearer that are protected, so there is precedent for my interpretation.

The Ork KFF works on only MODELS because it says MODELS. Thats precedent that your interpretation is wrong because they had to specify models.

And like I said before, Target = unit because you target units for shooting, not models.

 goblinzz wrote:
They use neither the word models nor unit, but say "hits a target." I read this is basically the same thing as cover. I hit the front two dudes, they are not in cover, I kill them, the next two dudes are in cover and get their cover save.

I do not believe that there is a portion of the BRB that states that AoE always covers a whole unit. Bear in my mind that the Ork KFF specifically lists that it is only MODELS within 6" of the bearer that are protected, so there is precedent for my interpretation.

t's about the term "target". It means the entire unit, as any shooting attack will target a UNIT, not a model. Things that affect only a single model instead will always say so explicitly. The VSG even goes on to use the term "unit" instead of "target" in the next sentence: "If a unit is within 12 inches of more than one" - if "target" was model instead of unit, it would have to say "model" there to make sense.

Another rule explicitly telling you to affect "models" is the opposite of a precedent for your interpretation. It's a precedent on how rules are written if they're meant to affect models, not entire units - they will specifically mention it.

 goblinzz wrote:
They use neither the word models nor unit, but say "hits a target." I read this is basically the same thing as cover. I hit the front two dudes, they are not in cover, I kill them, the next two dudes are in cover and get their cover save.

I do not believe that there is a portion of the BRB that states that AoE always covers a whole unit. Bear in my mind that the Ork KFF specifically lists that it is only MODELS within 6" of the bearer that are protected, so there is precedent for my interpretation.

Reread shooting. Specifically who you target. Note it says unit there.

Ok, I've read through, and under the Choose a Target phase it says "Select a single enemy unit for them to shoot at." In the following sentences the writer goes on to use the phrase target and unit more or less as synonyms.

Back to the VSG rules:

"Each projected void shield has a 12" area of effect..."

"Any shooting attack that...hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

"If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator...randomly determine which of the buildings projected void shields is hit."

To me those two sentences are a little contradictory, and I see room for both sides to argue their point . From my end, we have an explicit area of effect, and I still can't find anything BRB wise that extends an area of effect beyond it's stated range to extend it to a whole unit (happy to simply not have found it if anybody can point me at it.)

 goblinzz wrote:
I still can't find anything BRB wise that extends an area of effect beyond it's stated range to extend it to a whole unit (happy to simply not have found it if anybody can point me at it.)

There are a fair few rules worded along the lines of, "Models in units within 12" or similar, which would have this effect.

 goblinzz wrote:
Ok, I've read through, and under the Choose a Target phase it says "Select a single enemy unit for them to shoot at." In the following sentences the writer goes on to use the phrase target and unit more or less as synonyms.

Back to the VSG rules:

"Each projected void shield has a 12" area of effect..."

"Any shooting attack that...hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

"If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator...randomly determine which of the buildings projected void shields is hit."

To me those two sentences are a little contradictory, and I see room for both sides to argue their point . From my end, we have an explicit area of effect, and I still can't find anything BRB wise that extends an area of effect beyond it's stated range to extend it to a whole unit (happy to simply not have found it if anybody can point me at it.)

that's kinda easy though. A non-barrage blast aimed at the back of a unit affects the entire unit. wounds will be allocated to models outside the blast area (those closest to the shooter), and something like Blind will affect the entire unit.

Ok, I follow you, so, let me rephrase, as I think I'm maybe using the wrong words.

I don't see anything in the BRB that can increase the area of affect of the VSG. Yes, there are precedents for blasts or blind moving around in a unit, but something like the VSG, with a very explicit range, isn't really accounted for. I read this as being like cover: have I shot all the guys in front of the wall? yes. Then the guys behind the wall will get cover from it.

 goblinzz wrote:
Ok, I follow you, so, let me rephrase, as I think I'm maybe using the wrong words.

I don't see anything in the BRB that can increase the area of affect of the VSG. Yes, there are precedents for blasts or blind moving around in a unit, but something like the VSG, with a very explicit range, isn't really accounted for. I read this as being like cover: have I shot all the guys in front of the wall? yes. Then the guys behind the wall will get cover from it.

That's because you think that the VSG should work like Cover, using your sense of reality. But this is an abstract rule set with a LOT of stuff that makes no sense in reality. Why wouldn't a Biker jink if an Artillery shell happens to scatter onto him? In reality, he would - but in the 40k rule set he can't since he wasn't the target of that shell.

The VSG says basically it protects any unit that has at least one model with a toe inside the 12 inch bubble. Just like a tiny pile of rubble will provide cover to a Gargantuan Creature that has it's toe in the pile.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 goblinzz wrote:
I still can't find anything BRB wise that extends an area of effect beyond it's stated range to extend it to a whole unit (happy to simply not have found it if anybody can point me at it.)

There are a fair few rules worded along the lines of, "Models in units within 12" or similar, which would have this effect.

Right, but the VSG doesn't have this wording...

To be fair it is one of the questions asked in the faq.
But the question is will GW answer all of them.
It's a poorly written rule and the void shield range is only one of the problems with it.

ITs not about affecting a range beyond 12", you use the 12" to determine which units are affected or not.

 goblinzz wrote:

I appreciate your input, but I don't see how we are going from 12" to >12". If you can lay it out for me then I might get it. I'm afraid I don't understand many of the responses as they are on the lines of "check this section of the BRB", and when I check, I still don't understand how you are extrapolating the effect to the unit.

Ok, look, Obviously the community consensus is not in alignment with my opinion, and I'm a friendly enough player to just dice off at the beginning of the game, it's just a damn game after all.

Edit: i stink at using forum code, obviously part of my reply is a quote to Nekooni, but I can't make it work.

The rule says "within 12 inches". The BRB defines "within" as "partially inside", the alternative would be "fully within" which means "must be fully inside".
The rule also says "target", which always refers to an entire unit as per BRB.

If you combine this, "target within 12 inches" translates to "a unit which is partially inside of 12 inches".

nekooni wrote:

 goblinzz wrote:

I appreciate your input, but I don't see how we are going from 12" to >12". If you can lay it out for me then I might get it. I'm afraid I don't understand many of the responses as they are on the lines of "check this section of the BRB", and when I check, I still don't understand how you are extrapolating the effect to the unit.

Ok, look, Obviously the community consensus is not in alignment with my opinion, and I'm a friendly enough player to just dice off at the beginning of the game, it's just a damn game after all.

Edit: i stink at using forum code, obviously part of my reply is a quote to Nekooni, but I can't make it work.

The rule says "within 12 inches". The BRB defines "within" as "partially inside", the alternative would be "fully within" which means "must be fully inside".
The rule also says "target", which always refers to an entire unit as per BRB.

If you combine this, "target within 12 inches" translates to "a unit which is partially inside of 12 inches".

Ok, I think you are getting to the root of my confusion, which section defines "within" as being "partially within"?

 goblinzz wrote:

Ok, I think you are getting to the root of my confusion, which section defines "within" as being "partially within"?

Measuring Distances in the General Principles section

Many thanks Nekooni for the precise rules section.

That section does however differentiate between "within" and "wholly within"...

 goblinzz wrote:
Many thanks Nekooni for the precise rules section.

That section does however differentiate between "within" and "wholly within"...

Does the VSG say "wholly within"?

 goblinzz wrote:
Many thanks Nekooni for the precise rules section.

That section does however differentiate between "within" and "wholly within"...

And the VSG says "within", not "wholly within" (which is the same as "fully within", I just mixed up the two words)

Ok guys, thanks to those that provided direct support and explanation via pointing to me the right sections of the rules. I now understand better the position that it covers the whole unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm of the opinion that it wasn't really meant to daisy chain all the way across the board with a green tide, but clearly, RAW, it can be interpreted as doing so. Great, more rules abuse...

Just ask this question on their FB, they will answer you in a week or two^^

 godardc wrote:
Just ask this question on their FB, they will answer you in a week or two^^

We can dream...

Wow... I never even realized the potential of this RAW. Time to daisy chain my blobs to get void shielded blobs anywhere on the board! LMAO. Oh you just fired your heavy flamer into my blob? SORRY IT DOES NOTHING You'll have to bust through 2 void shields first!. The shenanigans that could be pulled with this are almost as ridiculous as the skyshield.

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Wow... I never even realized the potential of this RAW. Time to daisy chain my blobs to get void shielded blobs anywhere on the board! LMAO. Oh you just fired your heavy flamer into my blob? SORRY IT DOES NOTHING You'll have to bust through 2 void shields first!. The shenanigans that could be pulled with this are almost as ridiculous as the skyshield.

Be prepared to run out of people willing to play you pretty quickly. TO's often rule against doing this and in friendly games it's an incredibly abusive thing to do

 jokerkd wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Wow... I never even realized the potential of this RAW. Time to daisy chain my blobs to get void shielded blobs anywhere on the board! LMAO. Oh you just fired your heavy flamer into my blob? SORRY IT DOES NOTHING You'll have to bust through 2 void shields first!. The shenanigans that could be pulled with this are almost as ridiculous as the skyshield.

Be prepared to run out of people willing to play you pretty quickly. TO's often rule against doing this and in friendly games it's an incredibly abusive thing to do

Can you give any studies or hard statistics that back up your claim? I've never seen a TO rule against this, so "often" sounds extremely exaggerated to me. And playing against it wouldn't be very difficult--you just need the mobility to get into 12" yourself and then his blob doesn't have the shield anymore.

 godardc wrote:
Just ask this question on their FB, they will answer you in a week or two^^

It has been asked 5 times so far (within the first 1950,) so I think it's covered.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Wow... I never even realized the potential of this RAW. Time to daisy chain my blobs to get void shielded blobs anywhere on the board! LMAO. Oh you just fired your heavy flamer into my blob? SORRY IT DOES NOTHING You'll have to bust through 2 void shields first!. The shenanigans that could be pulled with this are almost as ridiculous as the skyshield.

Be prepared to run out of people willing to play you pretty quickly. TO's often rule against doing this and in friendly games it's an incredibly abusive thing to do

Can you give any studies or hard statistics that back up your claim? I've never seen a TO rule against this, so "often" sounds extremely exaggerated to me. And playing against it wouldn't be very difficult--you just need the mobility to get into 12" yourself and then his blob doesn't have the shield anymore.

What a ridiculous question. Why would anyone have statistics for something like that. If you think the word often can even be considered "extreme" in any way, then the fault lies in your misunderstanding of what i said.

You want to explain with hard statistics how anyone can move within 12' of a VSG that is already filled with green tide or daemon spam?

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Wow... I never even realized the potential of this RAW. Time to daisy chain my blobs to get void shielded blobs anywhere on the board! LMAO. Oh you just fired your heavy flamer into my blob? SORRY IT DOES NOTHING You'll have to bust through 2 void shields first!. The shenanigans that could be pulled with this are almost as ridiculous as the skyshield.

I was thinking the same thing. Imagine doing a IG blob with 50 conscripts out in front and all of them benefiting from the VSG.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
Wow... I never even realized the potential of this RAW. Time to daisy chain my blobs to get void shielded blobs anywhere on the board! LMAO. Oh you just fired your heavy flamer into my blob? SORRY IT DOES NOTHING You'll have to bust through 2 void shields first!. The shenanigans that could be pulled with this are almost as ridiculous as the skyshield.

Be prepared to run out of people willing to play you pretty quickly. TO's often rule against doing this and in friendly games it's an incredibly abusive thing to do

Can you give any studies or hard statistics that back up your claim? I've never seen a TO rule against this, so "often" sounds extremely exaggerated to me. And playing against it wouldn't be very difficult--you just need the mobility to get into 12" yourself and then his blob doesn't have the shield anymore.

Statistics. If you have access to nationwide statistics on local gaming tournaments, I would be very interested in seeing them. But all the TOs within an hour drive from me play it as only the models within 12" get the benefit, so YMMV.