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Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids

yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists. Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?

The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they please don't use this term on Dakka like this. Reds8n everyone.

Thoughts?

Remember that CSM pay points for every special rule they have, have over priced units, and have an army book that belongs in 5th Ed.

People complain about SoB but remember that the chaos marine Dex is not only the oldest but one of the worst written. I think there is also a frustration that one of the main factions has languished for so freaking long.

I understand that but the sense of entitlement among chaos players thinking because they are the main dudes in the setting they "deserve more" than any of the other crap armies out there is overbearing

There's also the bit where they kind of get pushed out in the lore and the gameplay rather than just one of those. (At least in my opinion)

Trol lol lol lol, this thread feels like bait

 buddha wrote:
People complain about SoB but remember that the chaos marine Dex is not only the oldest but one of the worst written. I think there is also a frustration that one of the main factions has languished for so freaking long.

The only people who complain about SoB are talking about the model availability and limited range of options.

The Sisters rules are actually better than the CSM ones right now for the most part.

DorianGray wrote:
Arguably there are armies with worse codexes out there. Like Orks, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard and Tyranids

I'd argue CSM's are worse than most, if not all of these armies. Certainly tournament results would support them being worse than most/all of these, especially if you look at CSM armies that aren't rump-detachments to Daemon allies.

yet Spikey Space Marines takes up 90% of the whining on these forums with them demanding they deserve a full update with OP rules like back in 4th edition when everyone was running rofl-stomp Khorne Berzeker lists.

Khorne Berzerkers were never anything broken, nor are 90% of the whines coming from CSM players. Most people are complaining about Eldar/Tau/SM's/Necrons...and largely for good reason.

The 4E CSM codex has *one* really good thing. Lash of Submission. Aside from that, it was "eh" ok in terms of power level. CSM's were likewise not the dominant army of 4th edition. You're thinking of Eldar and the unkillable skimmerspam flying circus. CSM's were solid in 4E, and part of the problem currently is that the army really hasn't changed, it's still built around 4E & 5E core rules mechanics that no longer exist or function. You can't consolidate into new combats anymore (which was a good change, but an impactful one for CSM's), you can't assault out of a stationary transport anymore (a very poor core rules change), it's new Daemon Engines are built to function and costed to 5E vehicle rules, while newer armies get such units as far more capable MC's instead.

Another reason you see lots of CSM complaints is that the army has become increasingly one-dimensional and bland in terms of fluff and options over the last few editions. Disregarding power level, if you read through the old 2002 CSM codex, you really get a totally different feel for the faction, a much more rich, coherent, dark, and depressing view of them, and a much better representation of the various CSM factions, both just in the fluff writing and army construction options, which has largely been stripped away over time. They've become rather bland steroetypical "evil" marines, and you get weird issues like having Plague Marines but no Plague Terminators (no, Terminators with an MoN are not Plague Terminators, anymore than CSM's with a Mark of Nurgle are Plague Marines). Meanwhile the loyalists have had the reverse, they have gotten all sorts of chapter tactics, wargear, units, equipment, and characters since 4th edition.

Considering the OPness they enjoyed for so-long in 4th when every game was CSM players trying to get into assault to stomp face... is the amount of complaining really deserving?

Even if we assume CSM's were the most broken OP army in 4th (though few would consider them to be so), how many people playing the game today played 4th? Maybe 5-10% of the playerbase? Most people play the game for a year, maybe two, and move on, very few play for multiple editions, much less through four of them or more. 4th edition hasn't been in place in 8 years, it's time to let it go.

The true reason probably is among the bad armies (Orks, Sisters, Tyranids, and CSM) CSM probably has the most fanboys because they are space Marines. Everyone wants their own army they collect to be good again. Sure Orks might suck way more than CSM but I don't play Orks so I could care less. There are or WERE a LOT of CSM players from back in 4th when they destroyed everyone.

Thoughts?

Methinks you're projecting some sort of issue onto CSM's that really lies elsewhere here...

Both Sisters and Guard are OK. They have useful stuff of their own and can fix anything missing (eg long range firepower for Sisters or melee units for Guard) by bringing allies.
Orks and Nids cant do that at all and CSM can do it only in a limited fashion, and only by mostly going away from the Traitor Marine theme and towards Daemons instead.
CSM I'd say is probably the most popular out of these three, especially after 30k came along and made people play the CSM predecessors, which probably got a lot of people thinking "hey, I wanna play e.g. thousand sons in 40k, too!" - so there's probably simply a ton of CSM players around.

I'm a Chaos player, and I get it. Our Codex is outdated. However the constant derailing of threads with complaining about the codex isn't going to change anything, nor is complaining about any new release that comes out for any other army. The entire internet gets it - the codex sucks. Can we all agree that it sucks and get on with discussing positive hobby? Like how to have an enjoyable game? I'll gladly persist with my CSM getting stomped because I love the way my army looks, and I love the theme. I play for the love of playing, win lose or draw I don't care. As long as the game is fun.

@OP You won't understand until you bother collecting 10k points of CSM, and play them against any generic list out there that doesn't use FW heavy models. As a CSM player, whose started out as a CSM collector and moved onto Daemons then Tau then Eldar, the CSM Dex is absolutely horse bollocks by comparison.

Comparing CSM in awfulness to Orks is a terrible thing simply because Orks can do everything CSM do, but better (Aside from shooting, but even then we're vanilla marines with out dated special rules designed for an edition which doesn't exist and a mindset that never happened)

There is nothing inside the CSM Dex that synergizes well with itself without the use of a $200 book from Forgeworld and an equal if not more monetary investment of models from Forgeworld.

I have a sizeable Sisters army loafing around and they perform so much better for their price than my CSM simply because they perform a specialized role well, and MSU actually works for them. CSM doesn't have the luxury of being capable of list building where you can say to yourself "I want to take Warp Talons, because they're cool & good" Because they simply aren't. Their rules are crap, the models are expensive as all hell and there simply isn't a reason to bother looking at them when things like Bikes can do their jobs better and cheaper with more reliability.

I miss my legion rules. I will not be happy until I get them back.

Based on the statistical data collected on dakka polls about which teams people play, csm is nearly as high as space marines which is the largest single faction people play in the game.

Given that the number of csm players out number orks, IG, and sisters players combined, and compounded with the fact that the codex is legitimate garbage at this point, I'm surprised there isn't more people complaining than there is now.

Maybe because they have a Codex from 2012 and are rumoured to get a new one in 2017? Meanwhile SM and Eldar get two in half that time.

At least they have be'lakor with 2+ jink and all those powers, pretty much something invisible every turn. talk about op

SebboVonTebbo wrote:
At least they have be'lakor with 2+ jink and all those powers, pretty much something invisible every turn. talk about op

Considering every something in the army besides belakor is criminally overpriced, it really doesn't matter that its invisible.

SebboVonTebbo wrote:
At least they have be'lakor with 2+ jink and all those powers, pretty much something invisible every turn. talk about op

Any army that is punished for bring the unit that shares the books name is in sorry shape. Every PA CSM you bring weakens your list.

Because there is no cheese(see tau/daemon/sm/eldar/etc..)in the army = so lots of whine instead.

I left the game for 14 years in that time my army thousand Suns are the same point cost. Most of the other units went down in cost others went up but all are worse rule wise. The codex is a mess daemons are taken out to sell another book the book it's all about random tables. I don't want to even play vs the new codexs with them as I feel like I am playing with a 300 point handicap in a 2k game

SebboVonTebbo wrote:
At least they have be'lakor with 2+ jink and all those powers, pretty much something invisible every turn. talk about op

Really?

Let us open our copy of Codex: Chaos Space Marines...

Hmmm..


Hmmmmmm.

I can't seem to find Be'lakor in my Codex.

Which is one of the major points that CSM players have been making - our Codex is not viable without a £47 book from Forge World and a £5 ebook from Black Library.

I don't know of any other Codex that have £52 tax to just be 'viable'. Not good. Not top tier. Viable.

It also says a lot that the current 'viable' Chaos Space Marine army contains no Chaos Space Marines. When the current 'viable' list features virtually none of the core features of the army then that is a sign of a very big problem. Thematically, conceptually and rules-wise.

As others have pointed out - we're an army that is forced to use a book that is essentially two editions old and designed on principles of the edition that came before its release. Where every other army got special rules, traits and abilities tacked on for free (even the sub-par Dark Angels book that was released 2 months after CSM) we got overpriced units paying even more just to be on an even footing.

Conceptually we got a mess.

We're not Legions - we haven't got strong elites with strong wargear - instead we have a large amount of 'chaff' units.

We're not Renegades - we haven't got 'modern' Imperial weapon options and vehicles (Land Speeders, Land Raider Variants, Whirlwinds, Drop Pods etc).- instead we have a large amount of 'archaic' weapons and wargear - combi weapons, Reaper Autocannons instead of assault cannons, no multimeltas or plasma cannons available to infantry.

We're not Lost and the Damned - the majority of the force is CSM.

We're not pure CSM - we have half a dozen cult units and daemon engines.

We don't even have a fixed theme. So we get sub-par rules, a design philosophy that's 3 editions old, a £52 tax from Forge World and Black Library to be viable and we still have hatred heaped on us from people who considered the 3.5 CSM book to be the thing that ruined 40k forever.

That's right. 40k was ruined by Siren or by Iron Warrior armies having 4 Heavy Support slots. Not by SM Chapter Traits. Not by Eldar Skimmer spam with starcannons. Not by TMC Carnifex spam. But by two pages from a book.

And when we got our 4th ed Codex. Clearly we ruined 40k even more. Lash of Submission clearly was the thing that ruined it all. Not Eldar scat-laser spam. Not anything that came in 5th (GREY KNIGHTS ANYONE?).

Orks are good.

I get frustrated when I have to deal with a stupid codex for a year or two. If rumors are true GK are going to receive a codex update this year.

And CSM won't.

I would be feeling a little pissed off to know that codices that got a update after me, are getting ANOTHER update before I do.

Worse all these recent updates are upping the power rating of those armies. Hell C:SM Raven Guard and White Scars got their own fluffy as feth formations.

SebboVonTebbo wrote:
At least they have be'lakor with 2+ jink and all those powers, pretty much something invisible every turn. talk about op

Seeing that Daemons can take him, I wouldn't say he's their special unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Orks are good.

Orks are the definition of mediocre at best.

I've been playing CSM since about mid 6th and I'd definitely we need a new dex and soon. Our units are overpriced as hell and there is a lot left out. A lot of what they put in is dumb. But having said that I've had fun with the book ever since I finished my CSM army. Competitively speaking I haven't done too bad either. But my meta is just barely on the competitive side between totally casual and cutthroat. A lot of the complaints honestly seem like bitchin for the sake of bitching. Granted there are many very valid complaints and o get some of the frustration. I really do. I don't believe, however, that everyone who threadjacks a topic to whine about CSM plays in a meta so cutthroat that they can't have fun with their book.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:


-snip-

Oh, Imperator, you're right - Codex: Chaos Space Marines is an entire codex with Celestian syndrome!

Am I the only person who thinks it's just a case of it being a popular army models/fluff wise so there's simply more people to be there to complain about it?

There's a lot more people into Chaos beyond a games standpoint than there are Nids, Orks and Dark Eldar, and other lackluster codices. So, yeah, it stands to reason that segment of unhappy players will come across way louder.

That could be it, but actually it generally pans out that the smallest group have the loudest voices, because we know we're more vulnerable.

That's why despite the CSM being just as vocal, it's Sisters players people dread hijacking their threads. Because even though there's maybe a fifth as many of us, we're that much more vocal.

SebboVonTebbo wrote:
At least they have be'lakor with 2+ jink and all those powers, pretty much something invisible every turn. talk about op

Yeah because everyone who plays CSM wants to play Belakor...

I play World Eaters oriented army...

I think the problem I have with it is that it's redundant. It feels to me like a 5th Ed book with a flyer thrown in. Like has been mentioned before, Space Marines and Eldar get 2 new books and we don't get any love.

We're a popular army so why shouldn't we get a look in. I'm not looking to bring a lot of SM stuff in or make us OP, I just want to be able to go toe to toe with newer armies and have a fun game. I would be happy with an updated existing codex with just perhaps a bit more variety, like the 3.5 dex, and a points decrease across the board. I'm not looking for super units, just a level playing field.

Large player base
Legitimately terrible rules
Other factions receiving rules that CSM players have been clamouring for
Internet citcle-jerk mentality

There's plenty of fuel for the complaints and plenty of irritated players to keep those fires stoked. Not surprising that there's lots if whining. Unfortunately it seems it will only be stopped by CSM receiving every last toy that loyalists have along with new free legion based rules buffs and simultaneously becoming the strongest codex in the game. Fortunately that'll never happen, though that means the whining will never really stop.