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Hey mates. While I got the core of my 2000 point list taken care of, I have been toying with a few various formations and the few that have stood out have been the Emperors Fist Armored Company, the Steel Host, and the Armored Shield. For the first two, I noticed that both are basically the exact same loadout unit-wise: Command Tank Squad, 3x LR Tank Squads and 1x Hydra, however there is a difference in the points and I was just wondering if that was due to certain Special Rules or is it due to another reason?

As for the Armored Shield Formation, I really like it as if I wanted, I could easily field two of those for under 500 points (If I go Bare Bones), plus it comes with 2x more LR Tanks that I could use for my list. However, it got me thinking about the standard Leman Russ Battle Tank and how I have noticed that how I have rarely seen it used anymore in my particular area. Do people take the regular LR Battle Tank for granted? S8 AP3 is very solid overall and can be effective against hordes as well as elite Infantry and Vehicles, but I get the feeling that people don’t take it due to other Variants being more effective at certain roles. Appreciate the Feedback mates.

LRBT Pays for anti-tank capability (S8, Ordnance) but lacks real anti tank capability since the addition of Hull Points (as it takes three full turns to take out a single standard tank, without AP2).

The Punisher variant is just solidly better 95% of the time against almost all targets. Doesn't have to snap fire its heavy bolter. Gets a TON of wounds against infantry. Glances tanks out.

Well the steel host and emperor's fist are slightly different in that (besides the special rules) the latter requires a techpriest instead of a hydra.

As for the lrbt it has multiple problems. It's pretty pricey for what you get, can't use sponsons or hull weapons effectively, can only ever take 1 hull point off a vehicle per turn and usually it's blast is mitigated by cover, is so slow it might as well be immobile and it can't double out the scary T5 multi wound assault units that are so scary to guard (at least to my guard, shooting 50 lasguns at TWC and inflicting maybe a couple wounds at best is so disheartening). The exterminator is a way better generalist tank and is cheaper too.

First off the formations in mont'ka are probably your best bet for an all-tank(ish) force. If you go full army-selection list a quick and easy start is a company command squad as the command, an emperor's fist as core, and an emperor's wrath as auxiliary; then salt and pepper with others to fill out your list.

Second the reason no one uses the LRMBT is the Ordnance main gun. The MBT is an "All around" tank that should be capable of both anti-infantry and anti-tank(especially in the "classic" loadout of lascannon and heavy bolters); but snapshots with the guns that are not the battlecannon(basically making those guns a waste of points). So now the only time most people take an MBT is "naked", just a straight 150 point battle cannon with base heavy bolter(although a pair of bolter sponsons are still usable in a pinch but only if you have the points to waste somewhere), and only in formations or as the forced companion to the Tank Commander.

Literally every other Russ variant does at least one of the MBT's jobs better, and many times they can do both better.

LRBTs have the aforementioned problems, and for me are only added in if I have the 150 points spare and all my anti-tank bases covered.

LR chassis, in general, should follow the old guard mantra of, "If it's good enough to take once, I'd better take five." IG relies on redundancy and overloading opponents in one of several unit types, such as MechVet spam, Blob spam, Artillery spam, or Tank spam. Because of that, taking a single LRBT is usuall not the most competitive idea around, but if you have six of the bastards in a CAD plus a couple Blobs to bubble wrap and claim objectives, you're on to something.

If you check out the Armored Battle Group list in Inperial Armour 1, you can take LRBTs as ObSec troops choices, plus they don't have the "Heavy" rule and can thus zip around at up to 18" per turn if need be, so it gives a little oomph back to the venerable tank.

Given it's generalist nature I wonder if it has a tactical use as a support or back-up vehicle.

After your other units have fired you can pick which unit needs to be finished off.

Or if one of your specialized variants is destroyed it means you are not totally at a loss for that capability.

This makes sense to me primarily in a tank heavy force where you are going to have a lot of other Leman Russ hulls that are going to be higher priority for your opponent. Higher priority simply because of their specialization.

Ordnance rules ruin the LRBT. Well, that and hull points.

I think the LRBT is highly underappreciated, especially if your opponent's MEQs are on 25mm bases. S8 AP3 is instant death for MEQs, and you can get a lot of models under the template.

But it allows cover. And meqs are often in transports or in pods. And it sucks out loud vs MCs. Most marine lists aren't relying in meqs to do anything anyway.

Base russes can be useful as ad hoc AT or MEQ killers. However their main problem is scatter with BS3, plus they can not longer fire all weapons at full BS. When you get the BS4 units their points really makes a better turret mounted weapon necessary.

 GreenShoes wrote:
If you check out the Armored Battle Group list in Inperial Armour 1, you can take LRBTs as ObSec troops choices, plus they don't have the "Heavy" rule and can thus zip around at up to 18" per turn if need be, so it gives a little oomph back to the venerable tank.

They have Lumbering behemoth which makes them act as heavy vehicles. Only the Conqueror (plus a few other vehicles that based on the russ chassis) lack this rule and as such can move around like any other vehicle.

Martel732 wrote:
But it allows cover. And meqs are often in transports or in pods. And it sucks out loud vs MCs. Most marine lists aren't relying in meqs to do anything anyway.

And? Doesn't make it suck. Everything tool has its role, and MEQs jumping out of Drop Pods to secure Objectives outside cover fear the LRBTs.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But it allows cover. And meqs are often in transports or in pods. And it sucks out loud vs MCs. Most marine lists aren't relying in meqs to do anything anyway.

And? Doesn't make it suck. Everything tool has its role, and MEQs jumping out of Drop Pods to secure Objectives outside cover fear the LRBTs.

Meh? It's much more easily suppressed than a Riptide, and not much cheaper. I don't think regular meqs are a significant threat anymore compared to the other nonsense running around. The battle cannon does have a sweet niche against Tyranid warriors or Wulfen, but that's about it.

I think the main problem is the loss of LB and the general problem with AV system. Without lumbering, a lot of the bite is taken out of the bark. Blast weapons can be unreliable as well.

AV14 13 10 is still pretty vulnerable. It is significantly easier to kill than any MC. You can't stun or shake MC either. A lot of the time it only takes one shot to put a Russ out of action for a turn or two. By that point it is usually to close to use its main gun anyway. AV 10 rear is way to weak as well. It is really easy to just get behind the thing and shred it to death with regular weapons.

The result is that the LR chasis is way over priced for its utility. The BT stuffers the worst from all these problems. Loading up sponsons ends up being just a good way to waste points as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But it allows cover. And meqs are often in transports or in pods. And it sucks out loud vs MCs. Most marine lists aren't relying in meqs to do anything anyway.

And? Doesn't make it suck. Everything tool has its role, and MEQs jumping out of Drop Pods to secure Objectives outside cover fear the LRBTs.

Meh? It's much more easily suppressed than a Riptide, and not much cheaper. I don't think regular meqs are a significant threat anymore compared to the other nonsense running around. The battle cannon does have a sweet niche against Tyranid warriors or Wulfen, but that's about it.

It's not as good as a Riptide, but it's not bad. If you have a way of popping metuhl bawkses, it can easily do away with the small squads of the GSF.

The Battle Tank is a terrible variant in this edition, because you're paying a lot of points for essentially one mediocre shot. It's BS3 and the ordnance gun makes the rest snap-fire, so it can't really take advantage of additional weapons.

Also, like most AV units, it's incredibly vulnerable to being shut down without having to kill it, as well as being helpless in melee. Those tactical marines are practically guaranteed to kill it in a round of melee, or they can just land behind it and rapid fire glance it to death. When you consider that far more likely what will be landing behind your tank are Warp Spiders, the situation is even more dire.

I am a big proponent of all vehicles/walkers just using monstrous creature rules like artillery and the various Tau suits, AV is mostly not worth it unless you got a lot of crazy special rules on top.

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But it allows cover. And meqs are often in transports or in pods. And it sucks out loud vs MCs. Most marine lists aren't relying in meqs to do anything anyway.

And? Doesn't make it suck. Everything tool has its role, and MEQs jumping out of Drop Pods to secure Objectives outside cover fear the LRBTs.

Meh? It's much more easily suppressed than a Riptide, and not much cheaper. I don't think regular meqs are a significant threat anymore compared to the other nonsense running around. The battle cannon does have a sweet niche against Tyranid warriors or Wulfen, but that's about it.

It's not as good as a Riptide, but it's not bad. If you have a way of popping metuhl bawkses, it can easily do away with the small squads of the GSF.

Not when I'm standing behind the metuhl bawks.

They have Lumbering behemoth which makes them act as heavy vehicles. Only the Conqueror (plus a few other vehicles that based on the russ chassis) lack this rule and as such can move around like any other vehicle.

This is arguable, since in no current rulebook is Lumbering Behemoth actually defined. IA1 says they have it, but they don't actually define what it does. My precedent for this is that Centaur Carriers no longer have the "Gun Carriage" rule or whatever it is because it is not defined, thus a case can be made that Lumbering Behemoth doesn't do anything either. The Centaur ruling is via ITC and Adepticon, so YMMV, but there's a case to be made.

Martel732 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But it allows cover. And meqs are often in transports or in pods. And it sucks out loud vs MCs. Most marine lists aren't relying in meqs to do anything anyway.

And? Doesn't make it suck. Everything tool has its role, and MEQs jumping out of Drop Pods to secure Objectives outside cover fear the LRBTs.

Meh? It's much more easily suppressed than a Riptide, and not much cheaper. I don't think regular meqs are a significant threat anymore compared to the other nonsense running around. The battle cannon does have a sweet niche against Tyranid warriors or Wulfen, but that's about it.

It's not as good as a Riptide, but it's not bad. If you have a way of popping metuhl bawkses, it can easily do away with the small squads of the GSF.

Not when I'm standing behind the metuhl bawks.

Eh, I knew your username rang a bell.