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I always see MANZ being taken and touted as one of the greatest units. But they have the same toughness and wounds as a Nob, but with a 2+ save and no invuln. I actually have more fun taking a bunch of Nobz with 4+ armor and dual CCWs for the +1 attack, especially because they get 5 attacks on the charge at Strength 5 and +1 Weapon Skill if my Warboss with Da Lukky Stikk is there. Is it the AP2? I usually let my Warboss with Mega Armor handle all the AP 2 and let my Nobz punk the other guys.

Am I missing something?

Well, take a look at the cost of a nob with 6+ armor and a power klaw.

Then look at the cost of a meganob.

Then look back at the armor save that the nob gets.

Now look at the free twin-linked shoota the meganob gets.

Now ask yourself what being I2 instead of I1 gets you 99.9999% of the time when you're fighting things.

Then take a look at the strength differential between the power klaw and nob CCW.

MANZ are straight better than nobs. sorry.

You strike at the same time as Necrons, but that isn't saying much.

Mega-Nobz to me always live longer, and always are able to kill more. I've never had a basic Nob squad really pull their weight.

T Shirt Nob (6+ armor) with a PK is more points than a Mega Armored Nob with PK and TL shoota. The most common tool for bypassing 2+ armor is swinging at I1 which is when the mass amount of PKs are also swinging at. Meganobz might die but they usually take the thing that killed them with them. Slow and Purposeful is hardly a negative compared to having a cheap and durable PK unit.

Personally I like to use my Nobz and Meganobz without the Warboss being needed to babysit them while the Warboss is with a unit of boyz (to grab multiple units with multi charges and to serve as expendable wounds for AP2 attacks). Meganobz are perfect for a cheap and expendable throw away unit that can charge into an ongoing combat (or charge in after the boyz charge in) to unlease an explosion of PK attacks or act like the fabled MANz missile to force the enemy to run away or waste a lot dakka trying to gun down the Meganobz before they rip them a new one.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well, take a look at the cost of a nob
Now ask yourself what being I2 instead of I1 gets you 99.9999% of the time when you're fighting things.

Nobs are I3

Agreed, MANZ are a fantastic value compared to nobz with PKs.

Toss em in a trukk and rokkit them at the enemy.

You're not wrong, they have no invlun, but then again neither does anything else.

Their inability to sweeping advance is kind of annoying, but orks generally don't get much of SA anyways with our low I.

Inability to run is countered by brining trukks (which I do with nobz anyways).

And like everything else, they suffer from terrible LD and mob rule barely helps them.

Don't get me wrong, meganobz aren't WTFOMGBBQ good. Bad shooting, slow if their transport gets wrecked, no invlun - but, again, compared to PK nobz, are a fantastic value.

Bully boyz formation, however, is pretty damned good.


Aside:

I feel in the last book, nobz and meganobz were well balanced. Meganobz were a good value, PK and 2+ armor for 40 points, but nobz had easy access to invluns, FNP, and + WS. So, there was a place for both - nobz were good at fighting AP2 stuff with their 5+/5+, and meganobz were good at everything else.

In the new book, however, their costs stayed about the same, but FNP access became the same for each, we lost all invluns, and meganobz even gained access to +WS via DLS. I mean, honestly, nobz basically lost any advantages they used to have over meganobz. All they can do now is take bikes, which is too expensive for such a fragile unit.

I guess I just liked how in the last book, nobz and meganobz had advantages and disadvantages over each other, and actually complimented each other well. Now, there's not really any reason to take nobz over meganobz.

Regular nobz are knobs.

I friggin hate Meganobz. They are always giving me big big problems when I face them.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Agreed, MANZ are a fantastic value compared to nobz with PKs.
In the new book, however, their costs stayed about the same, but FNP access became the same for each, we lost all invluns, and meganobz even gained access to +WS via DLS. I mean, honestly, nobz basically lost any advantages they used to have over meganobz. All they can do now is take bikes, which is too expensive for such a fragile unit.

I guess I just liked how in the last book, nobz and meganobz had advantages and disadvantages over each other, and actually complimented each other well. Now, there's not really any reason to take nobz over meganobz.

I agree with all of this except for the part about nobs on bikes. 3+ cover makes them very survivable, (outside of Tau and AM) and makes them the fastest PK movement wise you can take, (Turn 1 charges are a real possibility) and they have a good amount of dakka to boot.

I don't like to compare MANZ to nobz.

Because when I look at nobz usually I quickly move on to boyz who are:
-Cheaper
-As survivable as nobz
-ObSec
-Troops not Elite

So I have some boyz and I have some MANZ for different tasks. There is no need for nobz, except for variation or very specific cases (like ork against ork).

What MANZ offer me is:
-2+ saves
-12 PK attacks
-Killsaws

Waaargh wrote:
I don't like to compare MANZ to nobz.

Because when I look at nobz usually I quickly move on to boyz who are:
-Cheaper
-As survivable as nobz
-ObSec
-Troops not Elite

If the transport blows up. Boyz will have to test Ld, and might likely run, even with 4+. Nobz likely won't lose 25%, even in a shirt. This silent benefit also samesame vs pie plates.

I wont pretend they are awesome, but it bothers me how much we gripe about boyz running after transport failure, and then fail to acknowledge this point with nobz when the two are compared soo much. Though, I guess I dont know why I'm comparing troop tax to unneeded elite choices.

As has been mentioned, look at points cost. For 5 less points you get the same weapon and melee profile.. With a 2+ save and TL shoota slapped on. You literally get more stuff for less points, which is wonky.

Honestly though, a huge factor for meganobz (which isn't relevant when compared to Nobz) is squad size. for 155 points you can slam three of them in a trukk, creating a super cheap unit which will either soak a lot of fire or absolutely tear something up. I1 and no invul save does mean that Manz will die against a lot of MCs and walkers but usually take it down with them, which is a fair trade at their price point.

Their high base attacks and multiple wounds also makes them very great at bullying smaller and impotent units. Where as it's not uncommon to see a group of termies take noticeable losses whilst carving their way through tactical squad / guardsmen squad equivalents, Mega Nobz can use wound allocation shenanigans to stay at peak efficiency for far longer.

I myself love MANZ and always had since I was small and wanted an army of them.

Now with the Bully Boyz and plastic being a thing I can

I think PK Nobz are a waste because I 3 is still nothing to sniff at, I had Grukk with 10 nobz with big choppas charge a unit of maximum guardsmen and they killed the entire unit in 2 turns.

they really do put out the hurt, when you get the charge off.

I like MANZ when I put my entire army in Trukks and send them off, getting screened by boyz in Trukks so that they get a turn of breathing space and then get to charge after.

its especially funny when you have 5 MANZ with pairs of Killsaws and a Super-Cybork Warboss in combat ripping apart the place

2+ with 2 wounds is pretty good.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I always see MANZ being taken and touted as one of the greatest units. But they have the same toughness and wounds as a Nob, but with a 2+ save and no invuln. I actually have more fun taking a bunch of Nobz with 4+ armor and dual CCWs for the +1 attack, especially because they get 5 attacks on the charge at Strength 5 and +1 Weapon Skill if my Warboss with Da Lukky Stikk is there. Is it the AP2? I usually let my Warboss with Mega Armor handle all the AP 2 and let my Nobz punk the other guys.

Am I missing something?

The rest of the army is really bad. Powerklaws are the star of this army but they are one of the monst over costed items in the game.This makes these "cheap" terminators that can't run nor benefit from a waaaagh, with no inv save and an abysmal LD look like a steal.

I've enjoyed the heck out of the Nobz in the Council of Da Waagh with big choppas. The rampage from Grotsnik and Rage from warlord trait (if rolled for) gives me up to 8 attacks each on the charge at Str 7 and initiative 3. With 4 nobz that's a juicy 32 str7 attacks. But that only really works because of the durability of the unit protects the squishy nobz =/

In every other situation I've tried to run nobz with they've died horrible horrible deaths without doing much and are vastly overshadowed by meganobz.

Wait whut. you enjoyed playing games with the council ?

How does that work.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Wait whut. you enjoyed playing games with the council ?

How does that work.

Council is a beastly unit.. If you can run it. It's real problem is being super expensive, not weak.

In fairness I'm only a few games in with the new Ork formation stuff. I've had a blast and done pretty well with a speed freak style list and deffkoptas backing it up. Found that...

1) council has to run like heck from D or other "remove from play" mechanics at all costs (once Ghaz goes the game kinda falls apart)
2) 12 man fearless boyz in trukks are hilariously awesome
3) the 8 trukks that I take with this list can just about form a trukk wall across the board causing my opponent no end of frustration
4) Ghaz and council are beasty, just absolutely beasty

Again, grain of salt, I don't play tournaments, and I haven't run it against any super competitive lists yet. But I enjoy the heck out of being able to field Ghazkull and have him feel like the Beast of Armageddon!

I know the new ork stuff isn't the most OP thing ever and a bit of a letdown compared to some stuff, but it's still been fun, and having army wide fearless is very game changing for such a low morale army!

Because they look boss.

Personally I hate Mega Nobz. I have no faith in them. The new Mob rule doesn't help them at all, they are to expensive to not have at least an invulnerable save. They wouldn't be terrible if they were T5 instead of T4.

I prefer to take Boyz squads with a nob/pk inside instead of 120pts for 3 models that become almost useless if their transport dies. (Trukks die.....a lot)

Plus, without the Invul and being T4 means that when they themselves encounter something with S8 AP2 they get doubled out, negating the entire point of them.

How hard would it have been to include a giant slab shield for them and say it gives a 5++ or some such nonsense, or simply making them T5.

SemperMortis wrote:
Personally I hate Mega Nobz. I have no faith in them. The new Mob rule doesn't help them at all, they are to expensive to not have at least an invulnerable save. They wouldn't be terrible if they were T5 instead of T4.

I prefer to take Boyz squads with a nob/pk inside instead of 120pts for 3 models that become almost useless if their transport dies. (Trukks die.....a lot)

Plus, without the Invul and being T4 means that when they themselves encounter something with S8 AP2 they get doubled out, negating the entire point of them.

How hard would it have been to include a giant slab shield for them and say it gives a 5++ or some such nonsense, or simply making them T5.

A squad of 11 boyz + 1 PK nob is 107 points. For 13 less points you get more (net) wounds - which are substantially easier to get rid of - and a fair number more attacks at far lower strength. It's not a great trade off but it's also not a hugely bad one. What is very important though is what happens to the boyz squad when the trukk explodes, primarily that half of them die and the squad is very likely to book it / be crippled for the rest of the game.

Also, Mob Rule is vastly superior for MANZ than it is for squads of 12 boyz.

Also, Mob Rule doesn't apply to them because you're taking them in the Bully Boyz formation. Which I'm pretty sure is giving out Fearless.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also, Mob Rule doesn't apply to them because you're taking them in the Bully Boyz formation. Which I'm pretty sure is giving out Fearless.

I don't run bullyboyz formation for 2 reasons. 1 I don't have enough Mega nobz and 2: its to expensive and gimmicky for me.

How's it expensive and gimmicky?

Units like them are better in redundancy, it fixes issues, and saves your elite slot for Tank Bustaz. What is the gimmick in all this, exactly?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How's it expensive and gimmicky?

Units like them are better in redundancy, it fixes issues, and saves your elite slot for Tank Bustaz. What is the gimmick in all this, exactly?

Gimmick because its just another version of Trukk Rush. the problems with Trukk boyz are the same as for Bullyboyz in a trukk. Take out the trukk and you are left foot sloggin.

Don't get me wrong I like friendly games, but it would have been nice to have one or two formations inside our codex/supplement that were competitive. Instead were left with our best formation being a Forgeworld list that allows you to take bikers as troops and gives them a couple bonuses.

Meganobz are good as suicide squads, but against a good list they have no chance because they get shot to pieces before they get to their destination. The term "Bully" is appropriate for them because they aren't designed to work against CC units, they are designed to kill vehicles and expensive non-CC units, they suck though against MC and GMC because they have a hard time hitting/wounding and then in return get hit with At initiative AP2 that usually doubles them out, and they suck against dedicated CC units because they are in effect Ork Nobz swinging at initiative 1.

A great example of this would be 3 Meganobz vs 13 boyz with nob/pk which is 120pts vs 119pts I believe. Lets say Meganobz assault which is rare because they don't get to run and boyz get to as well as benefit from waaagh but lets give them the charge. 13 boyz = 39 attacks about 20 hits at S3 = about 7 wounds. Nobz will fail 1 so 5 wounds left. Nob and Meganobz swing. Meganobz 12 attacks 6 hits 5 wounds 5 dead boyz, nob goes 3 attacks 1-2 hits 1-2 DEAD Nobz. So boyz lost 5 models but the meganobz lost 1 full model so are 33% less effective and are now down to 6 attacks instead of 12 for the rest of combat.

Switch this around to the more likely scenario. 13 boyz on the charge is 52 attacks 26 hits 13 wounds 1 dead Meganob. Meganobz and Nob strike back, Meganobz get 6 attacks 3 hits 3 dead boyz. Nob goes 4 attacks 2 hits 2 dead meganobz. Boyz win combat.

So in reality Meganobz are only good against units that can't find back, so your paying 40pts a model for a unit that can't do much in CC against actual CC units, can't go Toe to Toe with MC or GMC and Super Heavies. So your paying a lot of points to do what a boyz squad can do.

I like the way Meganobz look, I love the fluff for them, but the rules for them at the moment make them about as bad as terminators in SM armies. The only reason you take them in games is because the rest of the Ork Codex is such garbage that they don't look that bad compared to other things like Burna Boyz, kommandos, killa kanz and deff dreadz.

SemperMortis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How's it expensive and gimmicky?

Units like them are better in redundancy, it fixes issues, and saves your elite slot for Tank Bustaz. What is the gimmick in all this, exactly?

Gimmick because its just another version of Trukk Rush. the problems with Trukk boyz are the same as for Bullyboyz in a trukk. Take out the trukk and you are left foot sloggin.

Don't get me wrong I like friendly games, but it would have been nice to have one or two formations inside our codex/supplement that were competitive. Instead were left with our best formation being a Forgeworld list that allows you to take bikers as troops and gives them a couple bonuses.

Meganobz are good as suicide squads, but against a good list they have no chance because they get shot to pieces before they get to their destination. The term "Bully" is appropriate for them because they aren't designed to work against CC units, they are designed to kill vehicles and expensive non-CC units, they suck though against MC and GMC because they have a hard time hitting/wounding and then in return get hit with At initiative AP2 that usually doubles them out, and they suck against dedicated CC units because they are in effect Ork Nobz swinging at initiative 1.

A great example of this would be 3 Meganobz vs 13 boyz with nob/pk which is 120pts vs 119pts I believe. Lets say Meganobz assault which is rare because they don't get to run and boyz get to as well as benefit from waaagh but lets give them the charge. 13 boyz = 39 attacks about 20 hits at S3 = about 7 wounds. Nobz will fail 1 so 5 wounds left. Nob and Meganobz swing. Meganobz 12 attacks 6 hits 5 wounds 5 dead boyz, nob goes 3 attacks 1-2 hits 1-2 DEAD Nobz. So boyz lost 5 models but the meganobz lost 1 full model so are 33% less effective and are now down to 6 attacks instead of 12 for the rest of combat.

Switch this around to the more likely scenario. 13 boyz on the charge is 52 attacks 26 hits 13 wounds 1 dead Meganob. Meganobz and Nob strike back, Meganobz get 6 attacks 3 hits 3 dead boyz. Nob goes 4 attacks 2 hits 2 dead meganobz. Boyz win combat.

So in reality Meganobz are only good against units that can't find back, so your paying 40pts a model for a unit that can't do much in CC against actual CC units, can't go Toe to Toe with MC or GMC and Super Heavies. So your paying a lot of points to do what a boyz squad can do.

I like the way Meganobz look, I love the fluff for them, but the rules for them at the moment make them about as bad as terminators in SM armies. The only reason you take them in games is because the rest of the Ork Codex is such garbage that they don't look that bad compared to other things like Burna Boyz, kommandos, killa kanz and deff dreadz.

Except boyz can't threaten vehicles as reliably, boys can't instant death T4 models, boys can't reliably beat armour saves. Meganobz and boyz are not a directly comparable unit because each is better the other at a certain thing, so of course it's a good generals job to send them at the right foe. That isn't news. Just because the meganobz don't win the boys in combat doesn't mean squat. Take both and send them at the right targets and they'll both preform admirably.

Except boyz can't threaten vehicles as reliably, boys can't instant death T4 models, boys can't reliably beat armour saves. Meganobz and boyz are not a directly comparable unit because each is better the other at a certain thing, so of course it's a good generals job to send them at the right foe. That isn't news. Just because the meganobz don't win the boys in combat doesn't mean squat. Take both and send them at the right targets and they'll both preform admirably.

true, but only against vehicles with rear AV of 11 or higher. AV 10 dies to boyz in droves. And even if it doesn't, your Nob still has his PK so 4 attacks at S9, instead of 12 attacks at S9. The big difference is against tougher to crack vehicles with higher AV. But realistically against high AV vehicles I would prefer to us Tank Bustas with their Melta Bombs.

Overall I feel Boyz squads are more flexible. They excel in CC compared to Meganobz They don't need AP CC to kill terminators and other good armor save units, they just drown them in attacks. What is better at killing SMs, a Devestator squad armed with lascannons or a similarly priced unit of Scat Bikes, more dice = better. Boyz can in fact insta death T4 models, because their are very few T4 MULTI wound models in the game that don't have eternal warrior. Those that are in the game are usually HQs. But even so you still have your Nob PK to Insta death anything to difficult for the boyz to finish.

The only downsides to boyz over Meganobz is 1: they die in droves to a strong breeze and 2: if you challenge out the Nob you have effectively neutered that unit. Best way to fix problem 2 is give them a 15pt Mek, there is no solution to problem 1 except more boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically in our current codex, Mega Nobz look like a good choice, and kind of are, but only because everything else is utter Gak. Who takes Killa Kan, Deff Dredz, Morkanauts, Gorkanauts, flash gitz, stormboyz, Nobz, nob bikers, Burna Boyz, or any of the ork flyers in a Competitive list? and by competitive I mean your attempting to win. Not trying to have fun because if so I love my Kan wall that never works but I field it often enough .

So for some horrible reason, even in a shooty edition where RoF is HUGE the best unit the orks have is Boyz. and Mega Nobz are a decent choice only because we have Gak all in the Elite slot now worth taking except for Tank Bustas and Mega Nobz.

If your meta doesn't have a lot of AP2 or Smash, Meganobz are great for the price.

If your meta is all monsters, not so much.