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... For fun, mind you!

If there ever was a setting I wanted to make into a TT game, it would be the Mass Effect series. Everything I like about the setting and the games aside, the setting itself has a very clear-cut internal setting for squad-to-company sized conflicts, which is the scale of most regular conflicts in the setting in general. The mechanics for warfare in the Mass Effect universe is surprisingly clear-cut, helped by a healthy dose of gameplay mechanics to make combat visceral and very, for a lack of a better world, forceful experience, where experience with weaponry, skills and armor strength is far more important than min-maxing or character-building. All weapons have a "feel", and different factions have their niche.

To this effect, I think it could be a fun little past-time to try and invent a TT game that uses these mechanics to create a game faithful to the ME setting, while being fun to play and allowing for some light "Your Dudes" in the form of Agents, Spectres, Operatives and whatnot.

So, in no particular order, my ideas:

- For the models, I would like them to be very lightly cartoonized, as to keep the vizuality of the setting, while making the models easy to paint without too many details. One thing I in particular think could be nice would be to, instead of releasing a bunch of weapons for each model type, to instead release all models with standardized hands, who are in the shape of a hand holding the handle of the gun, or gribbing the front end of said weapon. This way, you can release "weapon packs", who fit into all hands, wether Krogan, Human or Vorcha - As all weapons are generally used to some extend with all races.

- For unique characters, instead of making them their own slot entry with a f**kton of extra equipment for you to buy, I think it would be neat to have them as "titles", which are given to a specific generic army list entry. This Title would have some restrictions, but also give buffs to the character, and there coud be multiple versions, depending on the character in different times of their lives. So, say I wanted to make Commander Shepard from ME 1, I'd have to buy the "Commander Shepard" Title for the Spectre entry; the restrictions would be that the entry must be human, can't be Rogue and has to be an N7, but if I wanted the "Reaper War Commander Shepard" Title, it would have to be a Human Spectre with Cybernetics and the N7 subtitle, but in return, one of the buffs would be that I can now buy Reaper War Armament (such as the N7 weapons, Omni-weapons and gear) for him. This way, we keep modularity without sacrificing the lore.

- For weapons, I would really, really love to have each weapon have some sort of special stats. This is complicated, but I simply LOVE when I can rumage through a large list of fluffy weapons and gear and find just the one I want. How this would be I don't know, but it means that I'd like a significant difference between a Vindicator and Avenger Assault rifle, as to feel different. Again, the "feel" of the setting is the most important thing for me, and I'd hate to spoil it.

- I think it would be cool to use the "three weapon damage span" style for ranged attacks; Like 3/3/1 for short, medium and long, respectively; could alternatively have an additional "Extreme Range" band. Close Combat isn't a big part of the setting, but close quarters fighting is, so instead of giving everyone stats for melee combat, I'd just use Short Range weapons for that instead (a Claymore Shotgun could easily have 8/0/0/0). Some abilities or equipment would give special attacks or actions in actual Close Combat, though (Omniblade, Krogan Charge, Husks).

- Listbuilding should be as modular as making a character. Instead of confining a unit entry to specific lists, a list could have, well, a list of entries the list can have, and what restrictions and additional buffs or nerfs they get for being in this kind of list. Some lists would be very restrictive, but expansive (Saren's Rogue Army), while others would have a plethora of options, while using only a few entries (Reaper War Operative Squad).


That's all I got for the moment; what do you think? I want to hear your ideas, badly! Come with them! GIVE THEM TO ME

I got bored a few years ago when I had night shift three times a week in a hotel reception, and designed 80% of a ME 28mm tabletop game. I'll try and dig through and find the notes later.

Hmm... when I think Mass Effect and tabletop game, skirmish might be the best way to go. The skills system, class powers, and various races' strengths and weaknesses could be a useful thing to implement, and might allow more creative character creation.
One downside I'd find to converting Mass Effect to tabletop however, would have to be making it too complex. If you give the unit/soldier too many things to keep track of, it will make the system cumbersome, which for a game like Mass Effect, is something you might want to avoid.
In addition, it might be difficult to find variety, since Mass Effect is such a large setting.

As for your ideas:

- Can't say much for models, so I'll leave it there.

- Your titles idea is interesting. With a bit of revision and tweaking, I can see this streamlining character creation, and providing a clear guide as to how the rules apply to the character, without creating 5 special rules to make them interesting. Only problem I'd see would be if someone really wanted to include a character, but considered the required add-ons a liability.

- Once again, be careful about including every weapon and trying to make them all different. A good starting place might be the basic weapons, and then working from there. So maybe:
Assault Rifle = Avenger
Sniper Rifle = Viper
SMG = Shuriken
Shotgun = Scimitar
Pistol = Predator

- The weapon damage span idea is a good one, especially if you really do decide to go skirmish. I've seen it done well before. It can allow for a bit of breathing room for range, while still compensating for it by reduced damage. It can also help emulate the feel of a Mass Effect weapon,and provide a bit more variety in weapon choice.

- I'm... a bit confused by what you mean for this choice, but I'm understanding it correctly, I can see what you're trying to do. It might also solve some balance issues if done correctly, since it can stop players from tailoring their lists to absolutely table their opponent. Only complaint would be that it might be a bit restrictive for players, but hey, I suppose it won't stop people from working around it. It might work well as a guideline,especially if the players were trying to recreate a battle and wanted to only use units specific to the game the battle was in, but restriction might be... well... restricting.

Also, I don't know much about it, but would this thread better fit the Game Design forum?

 SkavenLord wrote:
Hmm... when I think Mass Effect and tabletop game, skirmish might be the best way to go. The skills system, class powers, and various races' strengths and weaknesses could be a useful thing to implement, and might allow more creative character creation.
One downside I'd find to converting Mass Effect to tabletop however, would have to be making it too complex. If you give the unit/soldier too many things to keep track of, it will make the system cumbersome, which for a game like Mass Effect, is something you might want to avoid.
In addition, it might be difficult to find variety, since Mass Effect is such a large setting.

As for your ideas:

- Can't say much for models, so I'll leave it there.

- Your titles idea is interesting. With a bit of revision and tweaking, I can see this streamlining character creation, and providing a clear guide as to how the rules apply to the character, without creating 5 special rules to make them interesting. Only problem I'd see would be if someone really wanted to include a character, but considered the required add-ons a liability.

- Once again, be careful about including every weapon and trying to make them all different. A good starting place might be the basic weapons, and then working from there. So maybe:
Assault Rifle = Avenger
Sniper Rifle = Viper
SMG = Shuriken
Shotgun = Scimitar
Pistol = Predator

- The weapon damage span idea is a good one, especially if you really do decide to go skirmish. I've seen it done well before. It can allow for a bit of breathing room for range, while still compensating for it by reduced damage. It can also help emulate the feel of a Mass Effect weapon,and provide a bit more variety in weapon choice.

- I'm... a bit confused by what you mean for this choice, but I'm understanding it correctly, I can see what you're trying to do. It might also solve some balance issues if done correctly, since it can stop players from tailoring their lists to absolutely table their opponent. Only complaint would be that it might be a bit restrictive for players, but hey, I suppose it won't stop people from working around it. It might work well as a guideline,especially if the players were trying to recreate a battle and wanted to only use units specific to the game the battle was in, but restriction might be... well... restricting.

Also, I don't know much about it, but would this thread better fit the Game Design forum?

It might; if so, maybe we should contact a Mod?

An'ways.

- About the characters who might become a liability, that's generally a danger in any game I find. In any case, you can just make a character without the title and call it whatever you want. I could make a Quarian Pilgrim with a Scimitar Shotgun and some Tech Skills and call her Tali'Zorah if I don't like the Pilgrim Tali'Zorah title.

- For weapons, I think it would be a good idea to start out with the weapons available in Mass Effect 2 to start off with. I don't know about number of shots. The rest can come in waves with new Warzones (you know, upgrade like Flames of War does it) Just for laughs:
- Avenger: 2/3/2/0.
- Vindicator: 1/2/5/1.
- Renevant: 4/5/0/0.

- Katana: 5/2/0/0.
- Scimitar: 3/3/0/0.
- Claymore: 8/0/0/0.

- Predator: 2/2/2/0.
- Carnifex: 1/4/1/0.

- Shuriken: 2/3/1/0.
- Tempest: 4/2/0/0.

- Mantis: 0/2/5/6.
- Viper: 0/3/5/3.

Something like that. I have no idea what these numbers mean.

- What I meant about the List building is that each unit isn't unique for the individual Army Lists; for example, there's one "Human Squad", which can be accessed by a number of Army Lists such as a System Alliance list, but also mercs. Wether that changes any of the units I don't know, but basically, each unit is the framework for the unit (what rules they have, what weapons they can take, what upgrades they can take, all that), and after that, the Army List decides on how the unit can be specialized. So a System Alliance list might have some sort of tactical rules, while a Blue Suns army can perhaps upgrade to give the unit illegal stuff. Still, there would be unique units like the Assault Trooper for Cerberus (which, again, would replace the average Human Squad in an "Cerberus Special Army").

But your ideas are great, too! Now we just kinda need some rules to built everything around and a setting for the start of the game itself. I suggest Mass Effect 1's climate, with the Counsel races and a bit of Geth, Krogan and Reaper.

After a night of thinking, I got an idea. Instead of making a game made entirely about squads and units, I think this game in particular could benefit from being single-model based. While some models may be bought in bulk (like, three Husks), I think the game itself becomes more interesting if each army, or "Squad", has around 4-8 models that individually plays more like a hero of other games than a simple line trooper.

So, for example, if you decide you want some Human warriors, you start by buying the standard Human, which has a set cost. Then, you decide what weapon you want to buy her, wether you want her to have better Shields and what armor you want to give her. Then, you can buy a class (which isn't mandatory). The Class might be retricted based on Army List or Race, most Humans can decide between all six. Choosing a class gives one Ability and gives allowance for certain Skills, Equipment and Abilities.

I thought up some abilities:
*Soldier:
**Adrenaline Rush: When activated, the Soldier may use three Actions that turn instead of two. Cooldown: 1 Turn.
**Gives access to Veteran Skills, Heavy Armor and Combat Abilities.

*Engineer:
**Combat Drone: When activated, place a Combat Drone model with 6" of the Engineer (Drone would play like an additional model with some Shields and a close range weapon) . Cooldown: 2 Turns.
**Gives access to Veteran Skills, Omni-tools and Tech Abilities.

*Adept:
**Singularity: When activated, place an Singularity token within 12" of the Adept. Any enemy model within 3" of the token is moved into base contact with the token and takes 3 damage. Any model pulled this way is Exposed. Cooldown: 2 Turns
**Gives access to Veteran Skills, Amps and Biotic Abilities.

*Vanguard:
**Biotic Charge: Ranged Attack (5/5/5/0), Automatic Hit. After dealing damage to target model, move the Vanguard into base contact with the enemy model by the shortest distance possible. This move happens regardless of cover or the death of the enemy model. The Vanguard restores One Shield. Cooldown: 2 Turns.
**Gives access to Veteran Skills, Amps and Combat/Adept Abilities.

*Infiltrator:
**Tactical Cloak: When activated, the Infiltrator gains +2 Def for this turn and the next, and ends her turn. This Ability costs 2 Actions. Next turn, move the Infiltrator anywhere within 12". This counts as a Move Action. Cooldown: 2 Turns.
**Gives access to Veteran Skills, Omnitools and Combat/Tech Abilities.

*Sentinel:
**:Tech Armor: When activated, the Sentinel gains +1 Def and Armor. Any turn after being activated, the Armor can be purged, removing the Def and Arm buffs and dealing 4/0/0/0, Automatic Hit to all enemy models in range. Cooldown: 1 Turn.
**Gives access to Veteran Skills, Heavy Armor, Omnitools, Amps and Tech/Biotic Abilities.


See where I'm going?

Add small fluffy changes to the races to fit with their flavour and we're golden!

Might be a good idea to make the core rules first, then decided on stuff like class powers and benefits. Alternatively, you can try to use the basic rules of a game, but tweak it a bit to suit the setting. For instance, I'm trying-ish to make a small-scale Team Fortress 2 wargame. Instead of creating my own core rues, I use the basics of the Necromunda rules, while making changes to make it more appropriate to the setting.

Single model isn't a bad idea either, since it might make it less cumbersome, and since the ME games themselves tend to revolve around squad-size combat, it might allow more variety on the soldiers.

Alright, I've one some thinking on the base mechanics for the game; I'm segmenting them into different categories for ease of reading.


- A turn.

Very simple; all models get two Actions every time you activate them. An Action can be Moving, Shooting, Full Cover (completely ducking behind cover to get additional buffs) and many others, who are more specefic or are granded by equipment and skills.

I think Alternate Activation is the best bet for balanced gameplay reasons; espeically if the game is going to be more of a reactionary kind of game.


- Damage and Health.

My first thought was to give all weapons and attacks the mentioned four values of Short, Medium, Long and Extreme Range (the actual, physical range is debatable; I personally think something like 10/20/30'', and everyone beyond being Extreme. I also think 32mm would fit nicely. To take Warmachine as an example, a regular Warcaster is standard size, and a Cygnar Warjack would be the size of a Reaper Brute.), and the idea was that that number was the number of dice you got whenever you attack with the selected weapon. You don't roll to "hit" or "wound"; simply to see ust how much damage you do, all things considered. Making rules for damage and hitting the enemy seemed like a weird thing to do in the Mass Effect setting, since most weapons are so simple to use that an inbred Vorcha could learn to do it well quickly. Plus, we're working mostly with Special Force-level characters here, mostly N1-6 and their alien equivelants; touching upon "hitting" seemed weird.

So, let's say I use an Avenger Rifle and roll three dies, and I get 13 all in all; a good roll! This value is the general damage I do with my rifle that Action. Now, I test that to an enemy's Armor, which is 12. As a result, I do one damage; every point of his Armor takes away one of my points of damage. This is very Warmachine, which I feel is a good system to be inspired by in this situation.

Shields are different: If you have Shields, you have an Armor Value for them, just like armor. Generally, these will be much, much lower (4-6 isn't unreasonable!), but whenever you break a Shield, you don't automatically spill over damage to Armor and Health, for the rest of the damage you dealt to the Shield is discarded and the Shield is removed. This means that weaker weapons with more attacks are more preferable to single, powerful weapons when dealing with Shields, because they can drain a model of several Shields per activation - A new attack with the same weapon can still do damage to the next Shield in the row!

As an additional thought, a friend of mine mentioned how he hated when big, powerful models stayed at full strength until they lost their last point of Health, so I think large things like Geth Primes, Brutes and even Krogan Warlords should have some sort of "damage grid" akin to Warmachine, that renders them weaker as they take damage. That's always been a part of the games, so might as well include it.

-

Now. I already see issues here; rolling a lot of dies for high-strength weapons won't be so bad, since so many dies will balance themselves out to a general standard, but smaller weapons will be an absolute pain, because one, two or three dies will produce all manners of weird numbers. This could be accounted for by making all thresholds pretty low and give loads of health, but then comes around some weapon that can deal whoopass amount of damage, and it all falls apart.

I'm inclined to just say "feth it" and take everything from Warmachine, but then again, that'd be boring.


That's the basis of my thoughts up until now. I'm thinking about making each type of weapon unqiue, and how to handle different kinds of weapons intelligently, but as of now, this is all I can muster!

The easiest way would be to just use infinity rules and profiles and just add and extra "wound" (I forget the INFINITY stat name equivalent) that regenerates if undamaged for a turn to account for the shields.

That seems like an interesting rule, but the shield should have ARM and BTS of its own.

What size table, how many models, what kinda Dice system

What kinda movement (climbing,hugging walls,terrain,difficult movement etc)

shooting and damage resolution,
templates.

there are a LOT of things to work out before you get into the fun stuff like special rules and unit classification.

ya gotta slow your roll.

personally i would rather favor the D10 or 12 system.

on a 3x3 or 4x4 table as i feel the game would only require 10 models at most on both sides.

are you going the 40k style you gotta hit with your own BS or WMH style you gotta hit the defense. etc. personally i like the Warmahord style damage resolution over 40ks bs and wound and armor save system. its a little less active for the inactive player but i feel it would resolve faster.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
That seems like an interesting rule, but the shield should have ARM and BTS of its own.

Yup, and be hackable as well so that "hacker" sentinels/engineers could do damage to that shield wound. It's only from the top of my mind (with limited Infinity fluff/stats knowledge) but the Morats seem good for Krogan stand ins and the tohaa for either collectors (biotech and all) or asari (with the biotech being a stand in for ubiquitous biotics) for instance.

 Desubot wrote:
What size table, how many models, what kinda Dice system

What kinda movement (climbing,hugging walls,terrain,difficult movement etc)

shooting and damage resolution,
templates.

there are a LOT of things to work out before you get into the fun stuff like special rules and unit classification.

ya gotta slow your roll.

personally i would rather favor the D10 or 12 system.

on a 3x3 or 4x4 table as i feel the game would only require 10 models at most on both sides.

are you going the 40k style you gotta hit with your own BS or WMH style you gotta hit the defense. etc. personally i like the Warmahord style damage resolution over 40ks bs and wound and armor save system. its a little less active for the inactive player but i feel it would resolve faster.

You're right; let's see what we can do, then!

I'd like it if we based the general dice rolls and mechanics on Warmahordes; it's simple, and easy to use and understand and easy to balance! It's so easy to add or remove D6 from the 2D6 standard pool for rolling.

I think a smaller table, like 3''x3'' fits the best. Mass Effect as many close quarters combats, and I'd rather like the more cramped battle feel than open field battles. With, armies, or rather teams, of 4 to 8 should be the standard size, with armied below 4 (like a team of hero-like models like Spectres and Krogans) and armies above 8 (like an army of Husks) are a rarity. I would prefer each model to feel like it's doing a difference, and doesn't have to be taken in a unit or bulk. So basically, all Teams are an army of lesser Hero-like characters.

As I wrote up the thread, I think it would be cool to have a unique system for making you Team: Instead of having the usual "Faction has set models that no other Faction has", there is a set number of entries, that are available to certain "Army Lists", which changes what that entry can take of upgrades and skills beyond the general availabilities to that particular entry. So, say I want to have a Human Soldier in my army: The Human Soldier is available to several Army Lists, such as Alliance Strike Team, Council Strike Team, Blue Suns Team, Eclipse Team, Cerberus, and many, many others. A Human Soldier Entry has access to the standard Gear for a Human Soldier at all times, and abilities like Concussive Shot and Adrenaline Rush as well. Now, if I added a Human Soldier to a Blue Suns Team, the Human Soldier would get access to Merc Gear and Skills (so now I can take a Punisher Submachine Gun; I couldn't take that before in an Alliance Strike Team, because the Alliance wouldn't get access to illegal Blood Pack weaponry.).

So, basically, making an army goes like this: You choose your Army List first, which then narrows down what kinds of Entries you can take, and what Gear, Abilities, Weapons and whatnot is available to you when you make your army. Apart from that, I think you could have each model have its own card witht he standard stats, another for each weapon it has, and cards that represents any upgrades it has.

Now.

Movement, I think, need to be simple. Something like the standard 6'' for most models, more or less depending on model. On terrain, I don't like "Difficult Terrain", and think it's a shallow mechanics that doesn't add to the game. Instead, this: For each Move Action you make, you may cross one piece of Half Cover (waist-high stuff you can vault over); done. Can't vault over High Cover (the kind you can't vault over).

I think the mode difficult thing will be to decide when you take cover. I assume all regular cover will be the straight Half Cover we know from the games for simplicity, and I had this idea: all ranged attacks coming from behind the cover (which is decided by wether they are wholly behind the line the cover draws through the table) gives Cover. Whatever that's be. Another idea I had was to make special bases with a flat end extended from the front on the base, which must be connected to whatever flat cover you want to take cover in to get the bonus. Additionally, I think a little disadvantage for a model that shoots a shot that hides a significant part of the target is in order as well.

Okay, so shooting. I don't see why you'd need to make anything fantastic new here, when there's so many tried and true mechanics out there. I'd just run with the Warmahordes mechanics, but without rolling To Hit; as far as I can see, most people in the Mass Effect setting who are military trained, and especially people in things like Strike Teams have NO issues hitting their enemies, which is why Shields are so ubiquitous. So instead of making hitting your enemies difficult, I would put focus on keeping Shields up and keeping your head down if you're out of Shields, rather than avoiding getting hit all in all. Plus, I always felt like games that made you have no effect on your enemies most at the time feels frustrating.

So, let's say a good standard DAM (which is basically S) is 6, Armor's general standard is 12 and Shields is 8. So, I roll damage against an enemy, which is DAM + 2D6, which here is 6 + 2D6. Let's say the result of this roll is 13, which means that if I hit an enemy with no Shields and armor at 12, I do 1 damage. I think the health pool would be somewhere around 8 as standard for normal models. On the other hand, let's say the enemy model has two Shields first. I still roll 13, which by far exceeds the Shield of 8 - BUT, the damage does NOT carry over to the other Shields, to the Armor or Health; it gets discarded. So, to get away Shields quickly, you need weapons that shoot more shots, or focus fire models to get shields down.

Special effects from weapons would occur on a Crit, which, like in WMH, is on a double.

Now, finally; I imagine a turn to go like this: Each model has two Action Points, which you spend during your turns to do gak, which includes Move, Shoot, Duck and all manners of special abilities. Models get "activated" in order of their Initiative, which is just like a DnD game; one player has the overall First Move, and so, he gets to move one of his models on the highest available Initiative level first, whereafter it shifts to the enemy player, and then back to the first player, until the Initiative level has no other models left. Then you move to the next level. Could also just be alternating activating one model at a time, using one Action, like in Betrayal at Calth (which works really friggin well for that game).

... So yeah. What do ya'all think?

Sounds like you should just copy warmahords

 Desubot wrote:
Sounds like you should just copy warmahords

Because I use a few mechanics from Warmahordes? Yeah no, that's not nearly enough. I used the Warmahordes mechanics because I think they're really well-thought out, but you could remove it and use something else if so.

By the way, I forgot that: I imagine all weapons to have Range Bands, as is discussed somewhere up the thread. Basically, depending on the range, the weapon has a set DAM, and if not, it's outside the weapon's Range.

And honestly, on your call I wrote one melon-fether of a thread to try and answer your questions regard how this kind of game could go, and all you have to say to it is that I should've just copied Warmahordes. Really, dude?

Bro its a joke calm down. no need to take it in the face.

Its also not a bad idea to use an exisitng system that does what you want. just tweak it, add and remove things till its something you like.

also read it carefully no where in that 1 sentence did i say you copied anything.

 Desubot wrote:
Bro its a joke calm down. no need to take it in the face.

Its also not a bad idea to use an exisitng system that does what you want. just tweak it, add and remove things till its something you like.

also read it carefully no where in that 1 sentence did i say you copied anything.

You didn't; I got mad that there wasn't anything other than that. I wanted your opinion, not snark, basically.

Anyway, I believe we basically have anything we need to make the basic combat. We could try and stat out some standard weapons and entries now, and see what happens! For example the Avenger Rifle could be 6/6/3/0 DAM (which is Short/Medium/Long/Extreme range, respectevily). I have this idea for the weapons that are known to fire very fast; a sort of "USR" on the weapon called Full Auto, which allows you to shoot three times instead of two, if you use both your Actions to use the Avenger Rifle. That rewards good positioning!