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 Steve steveson wrote:
This is not just a war gaming thing, it is happening in many industries. The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales. The book industry had just the same issue, but unfortunately did nothing until Amazon had gutted the market. PP won't be making any more from FLGS sales, in fact in the short term they will sell less, as the online stores and B&M shops will pay the same amount to the manufacturer, but the B&M will sell less in the short term, but do more to grow the market. Online stores are bad for any product that requires consumers to interact with the product to get sales, especaly ones that are easy to post. More and more industries are catching on to this, just very few are watched or advertis it like the wargamers industry. Online bookstores have had this restriction for years.

See, this assertion keeps getting made, but it's just alien to the experience of a lot of us. I buy more books now than I ever have before, as a direct result of Amazon - not just because they discount, but because I can find literally almost every book ever printed and choose between a reasonably-priced new copy(because lets be honest, the only people who thought book prices were OK pre-Amazon were people who had too much money to care and book publishers), an ebook copy, or a secondhand copy. I don't have to traipse into town in the rain and wander around multiple expensive book stores, then trek across to the other side of town to wander around the multiple inconveniently-located secondhand shops, on the way finding that half the books I wanted aren't in stock anywhere and endure some clueless twit trying to hard-sell me a substitute that is at best tangentially related to what I actually wanted.

The idea that online sales are somehow inferior to offline sales is farcical - the internet has sparked huge growth in multiple industries, even "interactive" ones, the problem traditional retail & publishing companies have with online sales isn't that they're somehow inferior at growing the industry, it's that traditional retail and publishing companies refused to move with the times and so they missed the boat and now don't get what they regard as their rightful share of the profits.

Well, tough boobies. If you want to make your B&M business work, find ways to add value, and if you can't grow your business and community through online sales, you need to stop pretending it's 1995 and update your marketing and business models. People can piss & moan about "entitlement" all they like, reality is what it is and the internet is going nowhere; adapt or die.

I wonder if this will get my buddy off his high horse about how PP is better than GW. Either way, not surprised by this bit of news.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Damn, this is ridiculous in so many levels its unbelievable.

I buy PP minis at online retailers because I do not have the time to go to stores and spend time there playing, its not convenient/possible for a busy guy ( how many thousands did they make in sales from people like me?)... I still buy though! So instead of PP saying thanks for my business they call me a fething parasite... Thats not having a pair thats just having suicidal tendencies.

Besides If people do not buy PP stuff at full retail price its not because of the internet sales gizmo, its because they do no see value on PP miniatures... Overpriced miniatures are at the end of the day just overpriced miniatures. So yeah want to change the game? Clean your crap first.

This measure is a clear hint of a company not doing well at all and guess what its going to get even worse.

While the tone wasn't great, they weren't calling you a parasite, but rather the stores. Plus, I don't see how it's a hint of a company not doing well - this doesn't make them any extra money. They don't have their own storefront they're trying to funnel people through, they don't sell directly, so they're making the same money on any purchases.

 TalonZahn wrote:

gungo wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:

However, a guy running a 2500 square foot FLGS in California isn't paying as much rent as a guy running a 20000 square foot warehouse in Missouri.

I... would't be so sure about that, actually.
edit-quote problems

correct my brother in law is a retail property manager in NYC. As in he leases retail space. He has store fronts that pay $25,000 per sq ft a month.

There is no warehouse in rural Missouri that costs anywhere near that price. And we are not even including the state, federal and local taxes that are all higher as well. Nor the increased utility cost in city areas.

Miniatures Market, when I visited them, were just a couple miles outside downtown St. Louis, not in BFE country.

They're in a light industrial park in an out of the way blue collar residential neighborhood. Rent's pretty darn low. Not to mention the money they save on hours, given that they're not actually open outside of the usual 9-5. I wouldn't really call it much of a store front either, as it's pretty much entirely dents and dings, with no actual play space.

Really glad companies are acting on this.

It's really crappy how bricks and mortar stores are being undercut by online retailers. A store should be a place to nurture a hobby, a place to socialise and play. They can't keep doing this without support from companies, so well done PP.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Damn, this is ridiculous in so many levels its unbelievable.

I buy PP minis at online retailers because I do not have the time to go to stores and spend time there playing, its not convenient/possible for a busy guy ( how many thousands did they make in sales from people like me?)... I still buy though! So instead of PP saying thanks for my business they call me a fething parasite... Thats not having a pair thats just having suicidal tendencies.

Besides If people do not buy PP stuff at full retail price its not because of the internet sales gizmo, its because they do no see value on PP miniatures... Overpriced miniatures are at the end of the day just overpriced miniatures. So yeah want to change the game? Clean your crap first.

This measure is a clear hint of a company not doing well at all and guess what its going to get even worse.

While the tone wasn't great, they weren't calling you a parasite, but rather the stores. Plus, I don't see how it's a hint of a company not doing well - this doesn't make them any extra money. They don't have their own storefront they're trying to funnel people through, they don't sell directly, so they're making the same money on any purchases.

If you are part, directly or indirectly, of a business model that is described as parasitic you are by default a parasite.
Its a clear sign its not doing well for an industry this size and a company this small if they need such desperate measures... BTW did not PP used KS?

gungo wrote:
GW is even more reasonable then privateer press, lol.
With GW you can still buy products 25-30% off msrp however online companies can't list prices for GW products online.

Privateer press is going to flat out ban certain retailers who do heavy discounts which they don't define and can be anywhere from the 30-10% discounts you currently find online.

No. That is not what is happening at all.

Stores which are online ONLY and lack a b&m location are put on a "low priority" list for stock reorders over locations with a b&m location. Obviously PP wants rid of them but can't just straight up dump them for one reason or another. Said retailers be they b&m or online or whatever can discount however much the feth they want if they can still turn a profit. Nothing in this prohibits them doing that. It is just currently far easier for online only ones to do it as the (theoretically) have far fewer overheads than a b&m location.

All of that is explained in the faq which I linked in my previous post
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?248149-OFFICIAL-Free-Rider-Policy-FAQ

 ImAGeek wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Damn, this is ridiculous in so many levels its unbelievable.

I buy PP minis at online retailers because I do not have the time to go to stores and spend time there playing, its not convenient/possible for a busy guy ( how many thousands did they make in sales from people like me?)... I still buy though! So instead of PP saying thanks for my business they call me a fething parasite... Thats not having a pair thats just having suicidal tendencies.

Besides If people do not buy PP stuff at full retail price its not because of the internet sales gizmo, its because they do no see value on PP miniatures... Overpriced miniatures are at the end of the day just overpriced miniatures. So yeah want to change the game? Clean your crap first.

This measure is a clear hint of a company not doing well at all and guess what its going to get even worse.

While the tone wasn't great, they weren't calling you a parasite, but rather the stores.

That kind of semantic wrangling isn't going to work - if you brand the online retailers as parasites, you are also by implication judging the customers who keep them in business. Which is why using language like "parasitical free loaders" is so utterly fething daft.

OgreChubbs wrote:
Because if people stop being dramatic there would never be problems lol. But since in the contract to sell pp stuff you need a brick and mortar shut down all web ones for breaking contracts and sue them I say.

Eh..huh? It's not in the contract...you can't make a contract when one side can't fulfill it. You can't make a BnM contract with an online retailer...it's about sending goods to a store, disallowing someone to sell stuff is not possible (e.g. they can't stop you from selling it on ebay or other similar sites).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thebiggesthat wrote:
Really glad companies are acting on this.

It's really crappy how bricks and mortar stores are being undercut by online retailers. A store should be a place to nurture a hobby, a place to socialise and play. They can't keep doing this without support from companies, so well done PP.

Wrong approach. If players feel that BnM stores aren't necessary, then they aren't doing their job and should be shut down. The business needs the customers, not the other way around. And really, it's all about the profit. If PP should get in financial trouble after this outburst, expect them to pull of a 180° asap.

 Steve steveson wrote:
The problem is not just the discount, but that online stores hold zero stock and have zero backup. They are a huge credit risk and do nothing to grow sales.

This here is one of the main cruxes with retail sales vs online sales. The traditional method for a store owner is to buy product from a distributor and sell it. They sell it for a value that is marked up to make a profit. The main issue is the store has to put that money up front and buy those products to stock. If those products don't sell, they are stuck with them. This is why most stores buy a lower amount of product.

Online stores essentially do the same thing but they count on volume. Instead of pick and choosing 5-8 best sellers, they pick up almost the entire line. Now that provides a convenience to some customers who want something but can't find it at their LGS. Since they are buying something might as well buy those last couple things they could have gotten at the LGS. Since they have low overhead, when something doesn't sell they just have to throw a fire sale and they can still make a bit of money or at the very least break even on those items.

What game companies need to do is re-evaluate how they sell to local game stores vs say an online retailers. For example one of the game companies that I associate with has a deal with the distributor. LGS signs up and they do go on a list. They have to buy a set amount of product, they arm you with the tools to sell that product. After Y times past, whatever isn't sold is 'exchanged' with the distributor for new stock. Then that game company will buy back that product from the distributor at the same cost (so no one loses money) or simply gets redistributed at other sources. That is the rough explanation.

As an example: There was a LGS that bought 50 board games of Lanterns and sold them all. Another one bought the same amount but only sold 25. They exchanged the dollar amount they paid for the 25 boxes for 40 boxes of Gravewell. The left 25 ended up getting distributed to another LGS which sold out of them.

Game Companies, manufacturers, distributors and local game stores are going to have to change how they approach retail store locations. There are different ways to do it, the above was one example. They however can't expect the same methods to work. If a company really wants to help a LGS, then provide a benefit to them that helps alleviate the the fear of financial risk and burden a LGS takes, while allowing them to provide more variety to their customers.

- Time-exclusive offers, e.g. new items are available 1-2 weeks earlier at BnM than online retailers

- Co-organize tournaments with cash / item prizes for the retailer

- Offer a reward system with BnM stores and the miniatures company; i.e. when you buy stuff at the BnM which is on the company's list you get a stamp / points, get enough, send it to PP and get free stuff

- Co-host global tournaments like Storm of Chaos with BnM stores organizing events and let players and their matches change the lore etc.

I could go on. There is so much stuff you can do to *positively* influence customers to go check out their BnM instead of just buying online. The problem is that this requires you to actually get your buttocks up and put work and effort into it. PP has made clear that they are not interested in putting effort into their work (and let's not start with the horrible models) and chose to actively punish and openly insult a large part of their customers.

Sorry for some people, but I do hope that PP gets a severe financial cut and in trouble, forcing them to re-think their ways.

 Sigvatr wrote:
- Co-organize tournaments with cash / item prizes for the retailer

- Co-host global tournaments like Storm of Chaos with BnM stores organizing events and let players and their matches change the lore etc.

You know they do these already, right?

 Sigvatr wrote:
There is so much stuff you can do to *positively* influence customers to go check out their BnM instead of just buying online.

Doing special events and specific things at a LGS are great and all. It however doesn't help them provide a large selection of choices in terms of products as they tend to keep a small amount on hand.

I try to support my LGS when I can. Usually newer items sold there vs online is within a $5-10 difference that I'm fine eating. I will say the best way I support the LGS currently is alcohol ^_^ since they have a bar now. However there are many times I go to buy something and they don't have it so I buy online. I could buy from the LGS and wait for it to come in, but compared to buying from online, I'd be waiting 1-2 weeks sometimes for what I can get in 2-4 days.

If it wasn't for a brick and mortar place, it's very unlikely I would have bothered to come back to gaming.
I certainly wouldn't have found out about the local gaming club, and discovered other games and players to play against.

Maybe PP should help promote gaming clubs rather than stores, if the future is online sales?

 r_squared wrote:
If it wasn't for a brick and mortar place, it's very unlikely I would have bothered to come back to gaming.
I certainly wouldn't have found out about the local gaming club, and discovered other games and players to play against.

Maybe PP should help promote gaming clubs rather than stores, if the future is online sales?

Gaming clubs are not a big a thing in the US as over here. It's all about the FLGS.

It does seem this policy is geared rather heavily towards the US, as I'm struggling of think of a prominent online store located in the UK that doesn't have a b&m location attached to it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
If it wasn't for a brick and mortar place, it's very unlikely I would have bothered to come back to gaming.
I certainly wouldn't have found out about the local gaming club, and discovered other games and players to play against.

Maybe PP should help promote gaming clubs rather than stores, if the future is online sales?

Gaming clubs are not a big a thing in the US as over here. It's all about the FLGS.

It does seem this policy is geared rather heavily towards the US, as I'm struggling of think of a prominent online store located in the UK that doesn't have a b&m location attached to it.

Yeah I can't think of any over here. Plus the discounts aren't that deep over here, tends to be about 10-15%.

 Grimtuff wrote:

gungo wrote:
GW is even more reasonable then privateer press, lol.
With GW you can still buy products 25-30% off msrp however online companies can't list prices for GW products online.

Privateer press is going to flat out ban certain retailers who do heavy discounts which they don't define and can be anywhere from the 30-10% discounts you currently find online.

No. That is not what is happening at all.

Stores which are online ONLY and lack a b&m location are put on a "low priority" list for stock reorders over locations with a b&m location. Obviously PP wants rid of them but can't just straight up dump them for one reason or another. Said retailers be they b&m or online or whatever can discount however much the feth they want if they can still turn a profit. Nothing in this prohibits them doing that. It is just currently far easier for online only ones to do it as the (theoretically) have far fewer overheads than a b&m location.

All of that is explained in the faq which I linked in my previous post
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?248149-OFFICIAL-Free-Rider-Policy-FAQ

Thank you.

Not necessarily approving of PP's move (though I can see their point), but there seem to be some people here just jumping in to grind an axe, apparently often based on being annoyed by a single over-zealous WMH player.

Companies like Asmodee and Privateer Press would like to force consumers to subsidize their corporate marketing strategies. I refuse to pay for their reliance on an outdated brick'n'mortar business model. I have zero interest in paying for LGS employees to introduce other people to games. Let those who benefit from the LGS pay the tax to support the LGS.

My personal thoughts on Local Game shops, they need to change the model. Id like to see a membership fee system to access to space/tool/terrain/hobby stuff in an environment that was kept up, clean, and pleasant.

Honestly I dont see how or why a game shop would want to carry any form on miniature model for any game. You order 5 and sell 2, you order 2 sell out and tell me you can order it for me, well so can I, cheaper and faster... It feels like a lose lose situation for a store.


With a membership fee a store knows where its at each month, rather than ride the ebb and flow of release cycles and hope its a good one.

 Manchu wrote:
Companies like Asmodee and Privateer Press would like to force consumers to subsidize their corporate marketing strategies. I refuse to pay for their reliance on an outdated brick'n'mortar business model. I have zero interest in paying for LGS employees to introduce other people to games. Let those who benefit from the LGS pay the tax to support the LGS.

just drink the juice damnit.....

On the fee topic tho, it is dangerious. If you gain access by paying you need to make sure everyone gets to play. If everyone shows up on friday and only 4 people out of 20 get to play you can fave issues where they where denied access to play and blah da blah.

But then they're charging a fee, and some gamers don't like that.

The best system I've seen like that is that events have a buy-in, which mostly or completely turns into store credit.

Chopxsticks wrote:
you order 2 sell out and tell me you can order it for me, well so can I, cheaper and faster...

Sums up most stores I've been to. Sweaty fat guy behind a desk watching youtube with nothing on the shelves except dust and a moldy slice of pizza tells me he can order it for me and it will be there in a month.

Thanks chief, I can order it too, for less money, faster delivery and have it brought to my doorstep. I'll make do just fine without all the "services" you provide that I apparently should feel bad about not supporting.

OgreChubbs wrote:
On the fee topic tho, it is dangerious.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
But then they're charging a fee, and some gamers don't like that.

I don't care what arrangement the publishers and LGS come to -- so long as I am not charged something for nothing. I don't rely on LGS staff to educate me about products. I don't (and from experience cannot) rely on the LGS to create a sustainable and enjoyable community of gamers. I don't rely on a LGS to host games that I play. I am not going to pay more for products on the basis of publishers preferring a face-to-face POS.

 Manchu wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
On the fee topic tho, it is dangerious.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
But then they're charging a fee, and some gamers don't like that.

I don't care what arrangement the publishers and LGS come to -- so long as I am not charged something for nothing. I don't rely on LGS staff to educate me about products. I don't (and from experience cannot) rely on the LGS to create a sustainable and enjoyable community of gamers. I don't rely on a LGS to host games that I play. I am not going to pay more for products on the basis of publishers preferring a face-to-face POS.

well you dont have a chooce it will happen everywhere. Gw, xwing now PP. buisness cut prices to help brick and mortar make money and sell there stuff. The will just cut the stores if that doesnt work raise the prices....

 Yodhrin wrote:
See, this assertion keeps getting made, but it's just alien to the experience of a lot of us. I buy more books now than I ever have before, as a direct result of Amazon

I agree, but Steve's comparison of online wargame stores to online books stores is apples and oranges. The thing is, Amazon and other online book retailers are killing B&M book stores. While some of us may morn the lost for purely nostalgic reasons it has not negatively impacted the publishing industry. I, like you, buy more books per year than I ever did from B&M book stores exactly because its cheaper and easier, and because no B&M store can match the selection of the online stores.

Wargaming is different, though. I don't need to connect with other readers to enjoy my books. I don't need someone to provide a place for me to read my books. In my experience, however, a healthy wargaming community requires a B&M store, with gaming space, to thrive (in the US at least. I understand that in the UK gaming clubs with access to public space to meet are much more common). We need that place to meet other gamers, to socialize and to game. I know some people do all their gaming at home with a small circle of friends and I certainly don't begrudge them buying 100% online. But its gaming groups that are out in public that grow the fan base. Most B&M stores are operating in thin margins, tying up money in expensive stock, and paying for square footage that isn't directly dedicated to sales. I know lots of people who would come and game at their FLGS yet they bought most or all of their gaming merchandise online. That's a good way to run a B&M store out of business, which will often result in the local gaming community collapsing.

Myself, I do all I can to support my FLGS. I buy all my hobby supplies (paint, brushes, etc.) from them. If I want something for a game they stock, I buy from them. I do sometimes buy online, but its generally only stuff the FLGS can't get. Rare or OOP stuff, or items from garage publishers that just doesn't get into the retail pipeline.

OgreChubbs wrote:
well you dont have a chooce

It's a market; there is always a choice. First, people can choose not to buy any or as much of their products. Second, online retailers will adapt. These companies are making the mistake of treating their customer base as a monolith (or trying to turn it into one) when there are at least two groups: on the one hand, more casual types who have been buying from the LGS and other expensive channels this whole time and on the other hand gamers who buy a lot of stuff and a wide variety of stuff thanks to online retailer discounts. Maybe that second group does not matter to Asmodee or PP*; that is part of the message they are sending, whether they would admit it or not. But I can tell you as someone who falls into the second category, by insisting that I pay for the failing brick'n'mortar business model these companies are constructing a wall between me and their products. And that wall is just going to redirect my disposable income dollars -- and some of the dollars these companies are losing as a result will certainly end up with folks who find a way to skirt these restrictions. Making "criminals" and "refugees" out of your customers is a dumb strategy.

These efforts end up as "buy the way we want you to" taxes, plain and simple.

*But it has to be a pretty substantial part of their customer base because they claim the freeriders are serving a large enough portion to "destabilize" and "distort" the whole market. ::eyeroll::

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Guess they don't like online stores competing like they've got a pair.

Ok, I think this wins the thread.

This almost has to be a joke. It could be cut and pasted from something GW did about... oh, ten years back wasn't it?

What's next, one-man Privateer shops?

 Vulcan wrote:
This almost has to be a joke. It could be cut and pasted from something GW did about... oh, ten years back wasn't it?

What's next, one-man Privateer shops?

Right?

All they need to do now is have Everblight completely eradicate the Rhulic forces and the transition to evil PP Empire will be complete.

 mdauben wrote:

I agree, but Steve's comparison of online wargame stores to online books stores is apples and oranges. The thing is, Amazon and other online book retailers are killing B&M book stores. While some of us may morn the lost for purely nostalgic reasons it has not negatively impacted the publishing industry.

Funnily enough, book sales have more or less levelled off of late. Locally to us in the UK, you used to have book chains, Ottakars, Books Etc, Waterstones, Borders, Blackwells, and Foyles. Borders bough out Books Etc and went bankrupt, Waterstone's bought out Ottakars.

That left us with Waterstone's as the main High street chain bookstore, and the occasional Blackwells and Foyles dotted around the country. Waterstones have reported a minimal increase in profit and turnover of late, and book sales from their branches are on the up. Generally speaking, I don't think the bookstore industry is going to contract any further, it seems to have more or less found it's natural level. The book market became too small thanks to internet sales to support four large chains and various smaller ones, but remains big enough to hold up a single large chain and a number of smaller ones.

It may well be the case that the High Street can no longer support the average FLGS, and if so, there is nothing PP can do about it.