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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Meade wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Meade wrote:
...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.

As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.

Ok fair enough, Well kind of like a starbucks (starbucks coffee), but technically a barnes and nobles. Of course they also do sell the product in their store... all you have to do is buy some coffee and ask nicely they will let you play. Does that qualify as 'hard'? I've done it several times in two separate locations. multiple games, well if you took over the entire store maybe, but i guess that depends on the location and how busy they are.

Privateer was being silly. People play board games all the time in Starbucks or especially in big book stores. My Borders used to host Scrabble tournaments every week even though we didn't sell scrabble. Customers who spend a few hours in a cafe are statistically guaranteed to buy something, and if they start bringing friends to your store or your cafe, all the better.

I've seen people play MtG and DnD board games in fast food establishments, parks and all kinds of places. Why would anyone think X-Wing is magically difficult to play on a large table (or two stalls pushed together)?

Local area boardgame club has weekly meetings on a given weeknight at Denny's (restaurant) and Dave and Buster's with not only the blessing but the encouragement of management.

I know a large number of people who would not bat an eye if all of the LGSs in the area were close shop tomorrow. I'm not saying that they should go away but it does seem to be a dying model of business that needs to be refreshed or innovated in some way. People and society are different from when I was a kid in the 80s and there seems to be less reliance on a dedicated game venue rather than, as others have mentioned, the plethora of free alternatives out there.

 Manchu wrote:
I have played a board game (specifically, go) at Starbucks on multiple occasions. No hassle at all.

Hell, there was a group playing Eldritch Horror at our Buffalo Wild Wings last night.

I've kind of wondered why more game stores arent more set up like pool halls. $5/hour, get your table fee in credit or something like that. Liquor seems more profitable than dice anyways. Insert obligatory blackjack and hookers meme.

Libraries and community centers are also a thing. Most of them have cheap or free table space that you can use if you start a club.

 agnosto wrote:


I know a large number of people who would not bat an eye if all of the LGSs in the area were close shop tomorrow. I'm not saying that they should go away but it does seem to be a dying model of business that needs to be refreshed or innovated in some way. People and society are different from when I was a kid in the 80s and there seems to be less reliance on a dedicated game venue rather than, as others have mentioned, the plethora of free alternatives out there.

Thats a good point too. In the older culture, you used to want to support a FLGS not only because you wanted a place to play games, but a neighbourhood place to go and get your stuff and browse. Now, that method is completely inefficient. With the dizzying array of games and gamer products out there, kickstarters, and gamers who usually buy only the latest shiniest thing, you have to really be on top of things to keep everything stocked and all the people happy. All this when we can easily get it online cheaper in the comfort of our own homes. The system just needs to evolve. I have a feeling that most gamers if they simply add up the extra amount of money they spend at the local store (vs online discount) and pool it, it would be more than enough to pay the rent one night a week at a local community center or something. My club's dues are 100 a year, with extra perks.

Where I grew up in Georgia, there was a country store. It sold hunting gear, fishing gear, I think ATV accessories, that type of thing. The son of the owner was in his early 20s and got his dad to give him a counter for sports cards and more importantly M:TG.
He had no space for playing but his dad also owned a Shoney's in town. Once or twice a week he would set aside the entire back area that's for parties and gatherings and things and we'd have these massive events.

Because of the military, I've lived in a lot of places over the years. An awesome gaming store with a few locations in Virginia is the only other place I've ever seen go that far for customers. I watched Atlantis Games and Comics go from one store in Portsmouth to 3 locations before I moved away. They had tons of events, focused on the customers, offered the ability to buy snacks in store, had discounts for club members (a fairly cheap club too). Most of all, the owner cared. He was a gamer too and he knew the names of most of the people in either of the shops I went to at any given time.

 DrNo172000 wrote:
I personally do not buy into the narrative that an LGS can't change it's model to a successful one that can compete in a fast growing market. If an LGS says it has a poor margin on PP products they are either lying through their teeth or have poor distributors. Most major distributors I know of give somewhere in the ballpark of 47-50% of cost on goods. That means close to a 100% markup at retail price. If you are savvy about events, demos, customer loyalty programs, and the rest of your overhead you can very easily sell these items at 20-30% off. And generally as price goes down volume goes up. So what's stopping an LGS that has received a bump in volume due to price decrease from expanding to online sells, even if you didn't want to go full tilt an Amazon or eBay store is easy and doesn't require you to have a professional webstore. No I agree with others who have said that LGSs need to adapt.

You realize that paying 45%-50% of the sales price is a terrible margin in retail, right? Especially with a product that requires a lot of inventory like large miniature lines.
That's the whole problem with games stores in the US- they are trying to sell a niche product that requires tons of support and has poor margins. It's the same issue with comics. It's why many stores turn to CCGS- less inventory problem, better turnover of product, etc.

I don't know that the game club model is nearly as practical in the US as in the UK/Europe. It is what war/miniature gaming mostly was in the 70s-80s, and it was a very limited niche hobby. Stores served as a central focal point for gamers and an access point for non-gamers. Having lots of glass with peculiar curious and banners draws in new customers. Events/game nights/etc. reinforce the hobby and provide socialization. Online sales doesn't do any of that. It's kind of like golfing- you need to play somewhere and if the courses can't make any money, they close. Good luck getting municipal game tables, though!

The future of hobby gaming is largely CCGs and CMGs, if sales trends indicate anything. Miniatures and RPGs will remain, but I expect that miniatures will backslide with sales reverting largely to direct order, while RPGs are cheap enough and easily produced that they will continue to grow. I really feel sorry for most FLGS or those who want to open a game store. If you want to make any money, almost any other kind of retail is better.

 jmurph wrote:

I don't know that the game club model is nearly as practical in the US as in the UK/Europe.

Despite the several people in here from the US who apparently manage it just fine?

It is what war/miniature gaming mostly was in the 70s-80s, and it was a very limited niche hobby.

I'm fairly sure the internet didn't exist for most people in the 70's and 80's, and certainly not with the utter ubiquity it does now. It has literally never been easier for niche-nerds of any persuasion to find each other and arrange events, and it wasn't the FLGS model that achieved that.

Stores served as a central focal point for gamers and an access point for non-gamers. Having lots of glass with peculiar curious and banners draws in new customers. Events/game nights/etc. reinforce the hobby and provide socialization. Online sales doesn't do any of that. It's kind of like golfing- you need to play somewhere and if the courses can't make any money, they close. Good luck getting municipal game tables, though!

And again, that's lovely, but even if we take the idea at face-value(and for my money, the continued utility of many of those points is arguable); why should rural Americans who don't play at a store because there isn't one, or kids who play at a school club, or gamers who meet at a library or a bar or each others' homes, or even gamers from another continent who've got nothing to do with American FLGS - why should they be expected to pay more to support businesses they make no use of?

 jmurph wrote:

I don't know that the game club model is nearly as practical in the US as in the UK/Europe.

Considering the apparent ease that clubs can find suitable space (which is all you need) in the UK I don't see how that could possibly be true.

Yodhrin: I am not saying they should. In fact, my point was that they probably won't. I am agreeing that for the most part, game stores that rely heavily on traditional miniature games will not be viable. But I also believe that there will be contraction in miniature wargaming as a result of that and other factors (many endemic to miniature wargaming).

Silent Puffin?: Que? Yes, UK clubs seem to have an easier time locating suitable space. And the UK doesn't suffer from the same sprawl issues as much of the US. Hence why I do not think the club model is as practical in the US. Also see my previous point that there was a club model in the US, and it never really expanded much. But there certainly will be some clubs that are successful. And maybe the Interwebs will help some. Still see a lot of inherent obstacles to bringing new players in....

 jmurph wrote:

Silent Puffin?: Que? Yes, UK clubs seem to have an easier time locating suitable space.

I have been to clubs in schools, libraries, veterans/servicemans clubs, community centres, pubs, above a restaurant and even in a garage/workshop. I strongly suspect that space is easier to find than you think and that at least 1 member of a potential club will have contacts to locate some space if you cant find anything publicly available.

The internet has made it trivially easy to find local gamers (provided that they have an online presence of course), that's how I found my local club.

I wholeheartedly buy at a discount online.

Someone justify why I should drive 20 miles (each way) to the only gaming store of two in the 50+ mile radius area (maybe more) that sells wargame models, which has nowhere to play (it's just a Riders hobby store, with rc cars and model trains) and just a guy or two at the counter. No one helps you or is in any way enthusiastic about the games they carry, stock is just on the shelves for a gamer to browse, buy and leave. It's a wargame version of Barnes and Noble.

The other store is 20 miles the other way from me, which at least near my work, but the only wargaming models they carry are clix games, and Star Wars Armada/X-Wing. Otherwise they are into boardgames and Magic. I love boardgames and FFG games, but I also paint models for 20 years.

 jmurph wrote:

Silent Puffin?: Que? Yes, UK clubs seem to have an easier time locating suitable space. And the UK doesn't suffer from the same sprawl issues as much of the US. Hence why I do not think the club model is as practical in the US. Also see my previous point that there was a club model in the US, and it never really expanded much. But there certainly will be some clubs that are successful. And maybe the Interwebs will help some. Still see a lot of inherent obstacles to bringing new players in....

List of places, even in the armpit of the country where I live, for free or cheap gaming space:
1. Library
2. Community center
3. Churches
4. Restaurants/Coffee shop/bar
5. Public schools are required to provide free space for the community to meet though you may pay a small cleaning fee. The football stadium for the local high schools costs like $50 for the entire day (since you're only paying for the janitor to clean when you're done).

New blood?
1. Play something interesting and people will stop and ask about it or even join in (have had this happen several times).
2. Make a Facebook page for your group (that's how I found the clubs in my area).
3. Put something on the local, community bulletin board.

I would say that we in the US are simply not used to looking for game space rather than it not being available.

 Manchu wrote:
I would say that we in the US are simply not used to looking for game space rather than it not being available.

There is also geographical factors at play as well. The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, so you're never far away from an urban centre = clubs and games space.

By comparison, some of your states are about the size of the UK or bigger, but without the population, so it could be a long drive for you guys to get to a club or store.

Don't underestimate the role a store can play in providing a focal point to a gaming community.

I'm talking from experience here, and it is really hard to maintain a club unless it has a focus on one particular game or collection of games.

We have one night a week to play at my club, and I see the same things happen -

Scenario 1: Someone turns up looking for game X, but there's either nobody else looking for that game, or there's an odd number of players and that player misses out.

Player goes home "empty handed" (despite best efforts, this simply happens sometimes.) Player tries again the next week, perhaps with a different game or perhaps the same one, and gets disappointed again, or their opponent they think they've lined up can't make it etc etc.

After few weeks, player just gives up.

Scenario 2: System X is really popular, has a core of players paying enthusiastically and as a consequence begins to attract interest and gain momentum. The players who were the key drivers of interest move on to other systems, or fall victim to real life and don't play so often/anymore. System X has interest, but nobody actually plays it anymore.

All this results from the opportunity cost of a weekly club, there's seldom time to play multiple games in one evening, so something has to give, even if you're interested in more than one game.

One game emerges as dominant, the others fragment into smaller groups that start to go stale, and either people hitch their wagon to the "main" game or go off and find other interests.

Clubs, I'm sure, in large urban areas with the numbers to support strong communities (not huge, say 10+ players for any given system) are great, but in a more rural setting in a more sparsely populated area, maintaining a vibrant and varied gaming community is tough, even if there are theoretically the numbers to support one.

A store, being a fixed location available every day, can easily support multiple systems across different days, allowing people to overlap, not to choose between Warmachine, Magic or X Wing on their one evening of gaming a week, they can, if they choose to, play all three on different days.

I'd kill for a proper Indy (rather than a GW broom cupboard) in the nearest town, I think it would be a huge positive for the whole tabletop gaming crowd, assuming it was done right.

@Do_I_Not_Like_That

In VA, there are a good number of people willing to drive 45 min or more for a game. As the state gets bigger, the people seem to mind driving less. Driving 45 min is a big deal in Central Virginia. Driving 2.5 hours is no big deal in South Texas. Also we have club culture already. You can find chess clubs and even niche board game clubs (like for ASL, for example). But miniature gaming clubs are more rare. So one reason for that is obviously that miniature gaming is not such a prolific hobby (although it is more prolific than ASL!). But maybe the LGS model has also stymied the development of clubs. What you tend to find IME is people who play mostly in stores with anyone else who plays in stores and then on the other hand people who play mostly with a group of friends in their houses. The latter is pretty much a club, just minus dues and an official structure (because it has no official business or expenses).

@Azrael13

The exact problems you describe happen at the LGS, too.

 Manchu wrote:
I would say that we in the US are simply not used to looking for game space rather than it not being available.

That is likely closer to the truth. Especially since the culture still largely supports LGS meet ups.


Still, many of the venues suggested don't seem really viable for miniature games. A restaurant/coffee shop/bar? No way. Maybe for board games or card games, but most of those places do not have tables large enough to support even the smaller footprint miniature games, and likely wouldn't want gamers with their armies inside rolling dice and causing a scene. Never mind the potential for offending people with the nature of the games or the aesthetic of certain models used in those games.

Libraries? I know they range in size from city to city, but the ones near me aren't that large, and even the ones that do have private rooms still don't allow raucous behavior or excessive amounts of noise. They are libraries after all.

Personally, it seems like the best location for a club outside of a community center is a private residence. That still comes with problems, though, especially in terms of recruitment.

 Manchu wrote:


@Azrael13

The exact problems you describe happen at the LGS, too.

But there's far more opportunities to game, and therefore far less conflicts. I'd probably play Warmachine, at least in a small way, likely Infinity too, if it didn't mean that it'd cut into my X Wing gaming time. I know others that come to the club that feel differently but with different system priorities.

Then there's the variety of board games, LCGs etc that interest me, but I just don't have the gaming time available to warrant the investment.

We had a LGS in the past, the owner did very well, so well in fact that he decided to close it down to follow some of his other personal dreams, so I know it works. Games and communities may go stale and die, but at least people who want to play aren't sacrificing playing one game they want to play because it means missing out on another.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
They are libraries after all.

So they probably have an annex. My current club is based in a primary school annex/community room thing that is also used by girl guides and other such groups.

All you really need is a large empty room with somewhere to store tables.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Scenario 1: Someone turns up looking for game X, but there's either nobody else looking for that game, or there's an odd number of players and that player misses out.

Player goes home "empty handed" (despite best efforts, this simply happens sometimes.) Player tries again the next week, perhaps with a different game or perhaps the same one, and gets disappointed again, or their opponent they think they've lined up can't make it etc etc.

After few weeks, player just gives up.

Scenario 2: System X is really popular, has a core of players paying enthusiastically and as a consequence begins to attract interest and gain momentum. The players who were the key drivers of interest move on to other systems, or fall victim to real life and don't play so often/anymore. System X has interest, but nobody actually plays it anymore.

Scenario 1 is solved by using facebook (or some other suitable method) to prearrange games.

Scenario 2 just seems to be one of the regular cycles that all gaming groups seem to have.

Have you seriously tried organising anything via Facebook?

It's like herding cats. There's several guys attend my club who absolutely refuse to engage in any social media of any sort. Some of them proudly so. There's also guys who simply aren't in that sort of demographic, they're approaching retirement age and it really isn't how they're wired.

Then factor in Facebook's weird prioritisation algorithms which means an important message gets shown to 12 people, and something largely incidental gets views in 3 figures and non peer to peer comms are nowhere near as straightforward as "just use Facebook."

Systems rise and fall, God knows I've seen enough do that in the last 20 odd years, but I'm not just talking about dying systems, I'm talking about people losing out on lifts, or who rely on public transport etc.. as many publicly available spaces aren't necessarily located centrally (again, speaking from a relatively rural perspective.) We use a community hall on a supermarket complex on the edge of town for instance, it's a bus ride from the bus station. This limits access to those without cars. I'm currently scouting other, more central, locations, but realistically the in town ones are often too small. When people were enthusiastic for other systems (Infinity would have been the best one locally) they were offering lifts to other players to get games in etc.

I appreciate a lot of this is specifically personal to me, but you can probably interchange different specific challenges for a whole load of other clubs and get a similar outcome ie unless you're blessed with a significant population, running a club is a challenge and it isn't the one size fits all solution to no FLGS that it perhaps is made out to be.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
They are libraries after all.

So they probably have an annex.

Not all do, no. Again, I mentioned that many of the libraries near me are small. The one closest to my house is a single building affair, while a larger one a city over has private study rooms but no annex.

Facebook was made by the CIA. To not skip a beat they even paid for the £200 million fantasy movie called "The Social Network" where their involvement was air brushed out. (Read: removed)

And people think if you think it was the CIA it was a conspiracy.

Gotta love the retconning of history.

I've been in Security Software Venture Capital meetings in the USA where three quarters of the investors round the table were spooks. Love it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The guys name from the CIA was called Peter Thiel by the way.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Have you seriously tried organising anything via Facebook?

Yup, entire campaigns in fact.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Not all do, no. Again, I mentioned that many of the libraries near me are small. The one closest to my house is a single building affair, while a larger one a city over has private study rooms but no annex.

There will be somewhere.

Okay we're wayyyyyyyyyyyyy off-topic here!

Back to discussing the topic of this N&R thread, please, which is Miniature Market's public statement regarding online retailers... not discussion of gaming venues / etc generally.

Thanks all

Seems a little heavy handed and bordering on GW levels of lack of awareness, didn't FF try it and then pull a massive K-Turn in the face of flame tsunami ?

It's all stick and no carrot, I'm not quite sure how Warmahordes works but couldn't PP provide promo kits as exclusive rewards to B&M stores, alt art cards, tokens, badges etc, never underestimate gamers when it comes to blingy pimping of their game rather than tell everyone that doesn't have a local store that they should be subsidising those that do

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Not all do, no. Again, I mentioned that many of the libraries near me are small. The one closest to my house is a single building affair, while a larger one a city over has private study rooms but no annex.

There will be somewhere.

Sharp insight.

Yes, I am sure there are rooms available for use somewhere in my city. However, as my original point was about libraries not necessarily being a good spot for conducting war games I think my point stands. .

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Finally I can stop hearing about how PP's poo smells like roses and sunshine.

That's just what I was thinking. LOL

Oh the irony.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Meade wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Meade wrote:
...Hell, i can even play xwing at my local starbucks. it's not hard.

As a reformed game evangelist, I will say that this may be just a slight bit harder than 'not hard'.
But I would seriously love to see photos of X-Wing being played at Starbucks especially if you can get multiple games going.
If you/your family happen to own said Starbucks, points will obviously have to be deducted.

Ok fair enough, Well kind of like a starbucks (starbucks coffee), but technically a barnes and nobles. Of course they also do sell the product in their store... all you have to do is buy some coffee and ask nicely they will let you play. Does that qualify as 'hard'? I've done it several times in two separate locations. multiple games, well if you took over the entire store maybe, but i guess that depends on the location and how busy they are.

Privateer was being silly. People play board games all the time in Starbucks or especially in big book stores. My Borders used to host Scrabble tournaments every week even though we didn't sell scrabble. Customers who spend a few hours in a cafe are statistically guaranteed to buy something, and if they start bringing friends to your store or your cafe, all the better.

I've seen people play MtG and DnD board games in fast food establishments, parks and all kinds of places. Why would anyone think X-Wing is magically difficult to play on a large table (or two stalls pushed together)?

We were specifically talking about X-Wing, a game that typically takes 3' x 3', let alone trying to do a 6 ' x 4' set up for 40k Start pushing those tables together and you'd better be buying enough stuff to keep the management from kicking you out or telling you to break it up. Suddenly you need that OLGS discount to afford the Starbucks coffee and Danish.

Like I said, FLGS-haters and OLGS-haters have made their respective positions clear. I find many FLGSs worth the cost for the play space and networking hassle avoided alone.
Others who have no FLGS or bad ones and/or who haven't moved from their home (we've moved every 1-3 years for 20+ years) and still play with the same HS or college buddies obviously won't agree.
And that's okay.

But acting like organizing play for folks who don't have a built-in network is easy is like believing that PP is doing this for good ole mom & pop.
It's ignoring reality.

(deleted)

With Miniature Market, it's clear they have the go ahead from their distributor. They must make up enough of that distributor's sales with PP items that it isn't worried about other stores dropping them because of the delays. But here's the rub, MM becomes the only buyer from this distributor, PP can escalate things and cut off the distributor.