BA Tactics against Necrons

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**Dantes_Baals**

Martel732 wrote:
Plasma cannons are garbage. Don't use them. If you really want to hurt Necrons, try an Archangel Sanguine Wing. Everything else is spitting into the wind as far as I can tell. This requires extensive modeling, though.

Read the list of the models he has. He would have to drop over $250 just to run this formation as he has exactly zero models in it.

**Dantes_Baals**

Zimko wrote:
As a Necron a player... I'd pity anyone trying to bring BA against them. BA are bad in general but against the new Necrons it's awful.

But if you want hope, you should try to get familiar with Necron units:

Things to melee if you can:
- Warriors (without a character). Preferably with something that has AP 4 weapons. If you can win combat then you have a chance to sweep them. But if you go in with just vanilla marines then you probably won't win.
- Immortals. Same boat as Warriors except 3+ saves but fewer numbers usually.
- Any vehicle if you have a high-strength weapon. Every Necron vehicle except the Monolith has a rear armor of 11 in melee.
- Tomb Blades if you're able to catch them. They're tough to kill, but their damage output in melee is weak (due to low model count) and their high mobility is useless if stuck in combat.
- Destroyers if you're able to catch them. They're jetpack infantry with AP3 and AP2 weapons. These must die. Unfortunately they have T5, W2, 3+, 4+++ (5+++ outside Decurion) and are Jetpack... so they're really hard to catch and kill. But they're NOT fearless, so it's possible to sweep them though unlikely. These are actually a decent candidate to shoot lascannons at due to their range... but that's only because lascannons suck at killing anything else and against Destroyers you'll atleast get more bang for your buck. You could also force a morale test while the Destroyers are hugging the back wall... and that MIGHT kill the whole unit with a failed morale. It's a long shot but that's where you're gonna have to get lucky to win with BA.

Things to shoot:
- Scarabs. They're small, fast and have a lot of wounds and attacks. But they're only T3... so if you have anything with strength 6 or higher then Scarabs are good targets. If you do take a plasma cannon (probably shouldn't but your options are limited) then it might actually be worth it's points killing Scarabs if your opponent has a lot of them because Scarabs have the Swarm rule. Thus Plasma Cannon shots will deal 2 wounds per hit AND cause instant death.
- Spyders. If your opponent has a Cynoptek Harvest formation, then the Spyder is the key. Kill it before attempting to kill the Wraiths. Lascannons might work, Drop Pod melta should work, grav of some kind would work (though I don't think BA have grav?). Again you have very limited options which is why so many are saying this is a mismatch.
- Wraiths. If you kill the Spyder, then it's worth shooting Wraiths.
- Praetorians. They're pretty hardy with T5, 3+, RP and Jump but they're only W1 and 28 ppm. So if you can sneak some bolter shots at these guys before they get to melee (they're melee oriented) then you might get lucky. Don't underestimate them in melee. Depending on the variant, they'll either have Rending or AP 2 weapons with 2 or 3 attacks per model. And they're fearless.
- Flayed Ones. These are basicly Warriors with 3 attacks and Shred. (T4, W1, 4+ 4+++). Don't get in melee with these. They're disposable melee units that can pack a punch way above their cost... if they reach melee. If you melee them you're basicly just handing your opponent point advantage.

What not to do:
- Don't think that you can shoot a Ghost Ark to death with a lascannon. If your opponent know anything about anything then he will Jink and 4+ those shots away. You're better off trying to shoot a Spyder or Destroyers with those lascannons. Your best bet against a Ghost Ark is to melee them or drop pod melta (and I mean 4 to 5 meltas... not 2) But really Ghost Arks aren't the biggest threat Necrons have so they should be a lower priority than other stuff.
- Don't melee Wraiths with your power weapon models. It'll just waste the AP 3/2 weapons. Wraiths are a tarpit unit, so try to get them stuck in melee with a cheap throw-away unit or shoot them. (They're also fearless)

Other units worth mentioning:
- C'tans. You might run into one. All you need to know is that they're MCs with 4++ and T6 and only 6" movement. Ignore them until everything else important is dead.
- Flyers... not really worth your time to shoot. They can't land so they can't take your objectives.
- Triarch Stalkers: A walker with 3HP that gives a +1 BS buff to units within 6". They also have either a 2shot multi-melta weapon or a 36" lascannon equivalent weapon. He has AV 13 like most Necron vehicles but he can't Jink. So a decent candidate for lascannons or melta if you get a clear shot.

That's all I can think of atm. It'll be an uphill battle. Good luck!

Excellent advice. Soak up every drop of it.
Also, if you run Defenders you won't benefit from Red Thirst. However if you run them as part of a CAD led by the chappy alongside a BSF led by mephy (for your other models). Don't be afraid to sacrifice red thirst. You won't need another point of I against necrons. In exchange they get stubborn (this makes them great at holding objectives, hence running them as part of a CAD). They trade out that useless extra point of initiative for counter attack. Now they're badasses in every round of combat, not just if they charge on round 1. Those rules will help immensely if you get charged by a relentless unit after being shot up by it.

**Slayer-Fan123**

The above advice ain't bad, but the point on C'Tan is wrong. They're T7, not 6. They're also likely to be ran in a Conclave, which means they're taking the shackles to make them T8/4++/5+++ instead. On top of that, the Crypteks with them will be T8.

If that's the case, you might be able to melee it. Might.

**daveh974**

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**Slayer-Fan123**

1. People DO overestimate Gauss. Once a vehicle is over 75 points though, it starts showing off its value. A Ghost Ark and Warriors can have a good chance to HP out a Dreadnought, and that math gets worse at Rapid-Fire. Dreadnoughts will be immobilized at that point, and you're not killing Warriors anytime soon. 2 attacks, 1 lands, 5/6 chance it wounds followed by a 5+++ at that point? Sure you could use a two Fists Dread, but if it isn't reaching melee it isn't doing anything. Dreads are terrible to bring up, because at least Vanilla Marines get 4 attacks and other goodies.
2. Regarding Immortals, you're having to get into melee with them, when they're either camping on an objective out of the way or lumped in the middle of the army as a support shooter. You're not going to wipe them out. Sure it is harder to get them into melee than Warriors, but the moment you fail a charge is when they throw 10-20 S5 shots at you and then charge.
3. The Power Sword ignores all Necron armor for the most part and allows striking before them. You're not getting a Power Sword on Tomb Blades though unless the opponent is actively charging them at you (which can happen).
4. It isn't my fault you don't know information about the army you're trying to give advice against. "I thought these guys were 2+ my bad"? That's a VERY big error. Once again, wounding on a 5+ but then only dealing with a 4+++ is better than striking last and wounding on a 4+. Of course you might be one of those people that just says "Sweep them in melee!" It beats me, but misinformation on THAT level is unforgivable.
5. Doesn't matter if they're T5. Striking last means they get to go first. Hyperphase Swords and Warscythes will laugh at you. Getting more wounds in before they can strike is more important.
6. Spyders are T6.
7. That player sucks. It is relatively easy to get a Lychstar in the danger zone if the player wanted to focus on that strategy.
8. Refusing challenges? Good luck on trying to actually win that combat.
9. Except what you recommend as being effective isn't actually effective, because you prove with your posts that you probably haven't played against Necrons at all, let alone a good Necron player. So on top of your strategy being bad against Necrons, it is bad against other good lists.

**Flugel Meister**

@Zimko

Thanks for the rundown.

I agree, the Sanguine Wing would probably be best, but I'm some way off from having that yet. But noted for future reference.

So far it sounds like I can charge them, but won't live long enough afterwards, even if I wipe out the squad I assaulted. The other Necron squads will shoot the crap out of whoever survives. The same goes for anything in a drop pod, even if it is a Lucius drop pod.

I could go heavy weapon with a lot of my army but obviously won't dominate in CC then.

Being a BA player, I prefer to charge and die horribly in the process. CC it is.

More questions:

Devastator squad or Predator?
Should I drop Mephiston in favour of more bodies?
I've dropped the dred in favour of another ASM squad with JP. Good idea?
I have 2 5-man tactical squads with HF, should I use meltas instead? (both are using rhinos, though I can upgrade one to a Razorback with TL HB).

**Dantes_Baals**

Definitely run the HF. Also, anything that reduces their RP save is worth it. I would recommend against running meltas in tac squads. A 5 or 6 man squad with a vet sarge, power sword and a HF is all you need. Sometimes even less. And yrs, dropping the dread for ASM is a step in the right direction. The ASM squad BTW is where you want your meltas. Two melta guns and a combi on the sarge. I would actually run Mephy against necrons. Depending on the list, but a lvl 3 psyker who can take divination and reduce their RP saves from 4+++ to 5+++ in CC is worth it. Just handily keep him away from warscythes.

Running vehicles as support against necrons is generally a bad idea including razorbacks. Unfortunately devestators aren't much better and his Wraiths will probably eat them by turn 3. However given the choice between the two, I'd run devs with MLs. They're cheap, they can strip HPs off of what they can't penetrate and they can turn a 4+++ into a 5+++ on anything that isn't T5.

**Flugel Meister**

My list as it stands:

HQ
Chaplain with JP

ELITES
5 DC with JP
15 DC (If I had more with Jump Packs I'd use them)
6 Terminators (with Cyclone missile launcher) Will Deep Strike.

TROOPS
5 Tactical marines (HF & Rhino)
5 Tactical marines (HF & Rhino)

FAST ATTACK
5 Assault Marines (JP and 1 Melta. Sgt with Plasma pistol & power sword)
5 Assault Marines (JP and hand flamer & melta, Sgt with TH and Inferno pistol) I know, points heavy.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad (2 Las & 2 Missile Launchers. Sgt with combi melta)
Land Raider Crusader ( for my 15 DC)

**Dantes_Baals**

Considering what you have access to, that looks pretty decent. I would definitely dump the combi on the dev sarge for a MM on the crusader. Aside from that I would dump the pistols on the ASM sgts for a couple PFs in your DC, but if you wanna run em that way that's your call. Maybe let terminator #6 go for a couple PFs and a PS in your DC. You don't want to run em too tooled up but 1 power weapon per 5 seems decent. I've learned the hard way, especially if you don't sweep in the first round power weapons seriously come in handy.

**Flugel Meister**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Considering what you have access to, that looks pretty decent. I would definitely dump the combi on the dev sarge for a MM on the crusader. Aside from that I would dump the pistols on the ASM sgts for a couple PFs in your DC, but if you wanna run em that way that's your call. Maybe let terminator #6 go for a couple PFs and a PS in your DC. You don't want to run em too tooled up but 1 power weapon per 5 seems decent. I've learned the hard way, especially if you don't sweep in the first round power weapons seriously come in handy.

Forgot to mention that the Crusader already has a MM. And the 1st ASM Sgt has a power axe not a power sword.

I plan on using both ASM squads to support both of my Tactical squads.

My tactics for them have worked well every time. Rhinos rush forward, tactical squads get out, shoot enemy, inflict wounds. Meanwhile, the ASM squads have also moved up, they shoot enemy, inflict more wounds, then assault. Usually, I manage to reduce the enemy squad by 3-6.

Of course, that doesn't negate the fact that his squads will be shooting at mine and may destroy a Rhino or take out an Assault Squad. But I tend to hide my ASM squads behind my vehicles for added protection whilst moving up. I'm hoping he's more fixated with my LR, but not too fixated that my 15 DC have to walk

**Dantes_Baals**

I really would advise a power sword. You most likely won't need the Ap2 and swinging an unwieldy weapon in CC is avoiding one of the few advantages you have over him. A PS reduces them to reanimation protocols the same way a PA does only you may or may not be alive to swing the PA.

One last tip. Focus on one squad at a time. In shooting and CC. The best way to get through RP is to drown the unit in dice. If you can help it don't move on to the next unit until the one you are currently swinging on/shooting at in 100% scrap metal. Good luck mate. Let us know how you do.

**Flugel Meister**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I really would advise a power sword. You most likely won't need the Ap2 and swinging an unwieldy weapon in CC is avoiding one of the few advantages you have over him. A PS reduces reanimation protocols in the same way a PA does only you may or may not live to swing the PA.

One last tip. Focus on one squad at a time. In shooting and CC. The best way to get through RP is to drown the unit in dice. If you can help it don't move on to the next unit until the one you are currently swinging on/shooting at in 100% scrap metal. Good luck mate. Let us know how you do.

Will try and get hold of 2 ASM Sgt's with power swords. I may upgrade a rhino to a razorback as well (TL HB).

**Martel732**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Plasma cannons are garbage. Don't use them. If you really want to hurt Necrons, try an Archangel Sanguine Wing. Everything else is spitting into the wind as far as I can tell. This requires extensive modeling, though.

Read the list of the models he has. He would have to drop over $250 just to run this formation as he has exactly zero models in it.

ASM become vanguards; all you need are power weapons. Tacs become sternguard; you just need the combis. So all he really needs is a stormraven.

**Flugel Meister**

Martel732 wrote:
Dantes_Baals wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Plasma cannons are garbage. Don't use them. If you really want to hurt Necrons, try an Archangel Sanguine Wing. Everything else is spitting into the wind as far as I can tell. This requires extensive modeling, though.

Read the list of the models he has. He would have to drop over $250 just to run this formation as he has exactly zero models in it.

ASM become vanguards; all you need are power weapons. Tacs become sternguard; you just need the combis. So all he really needs is a stormraven.

I presume using the Archangel Sanguine Wing wouldn't take me up to the 2,000 point mark. So with that in mind I can add to it as part of a CAD, is that right? Because I presume it doesn't come under Baal Strike Force?

**Martel732**

You would field a CAD in addition to the formation. Or a Baal Strike force, etc. I usually use a CAD to get obj sec.

I personally put priests in the vanguard squads and then use some drop pods with locator beacons. I think my current list has a bunch of scouts and then three units in pods or something like that.

The sanguine wing comes in a bit over 1K. Don't forget the heavy armor for the Stormraven.

**MacPhail**

Dantes_Baals and others, can I ask for some clarification on Reanimation Protocols and your recommendations for reducing them? I likewise have a tough Necron player in my club I have yet to face. I'm reading this thread with some enthusiasm because it sounds like you all speak from good experience, but it isn't quite sinking in. What are the advantages of the various things you've recommended (HF, PS, PF, Librarian, etc.) against RP? I know about the ID penalty, but there must be other modifiers I'm not aware of. Thanks for clarifying!

**Martel732**

MacPhail wrote:
Dantes_Baals and others, can I ask for some clarification on Reanimation Protocols and your recommendations for reducing them? I likewise have a tough Necron player in my club I have yet to face. I'm reading this thread with some enthusiasm because it sounds like you all speak from good experience, but it isn't quite sinking in. What are the advantages of the various things you've recommended (HF, PS, PF, Librarian, etc.) against RP? I know about the ID penalty, but there must be other modifiers I'm not aware of. Thanks for clarifying!

That's it. You have to chop through it, you can't really get rid of it efficiently. It's why BA almost always lose to Necrons.

**Flugel Meister**

I'll post an update next week after I've faced him. The club is every Wednesday, but he's not available until next week.

I'll let you know what seemed to work and what didn't.

Can someone give me a rundown of the Reanimation Protocols?

**Swampmist**

Any wound that is not str D, they get a base 5+ roll to negate, 4+ using the decirion formation. Takes a -1 for any wound with Instant Death.

**Flugel Meister**

Swampmist wrote:
Any wound that is not str D, they get a base 5+ roll to negate, 4+ using the decirion formation. Takes a -1 for any wound with Instant Death.

Do all Necrons have that? And does it apply in CC and when being shot at?

**Zimko**

People are saying to take HF on the tacticals and I do agree but be sure to aim those at either Warriors, Flayed Ones or Scarabs. It won't reduce their RP but it will avoid their normal saves. Shooting a HF at anything else will mostly be wasted because you have to eat thru a 3+ save and then they get their RP.

**Martel732**

Plasma combi-plas is okay on tacs as well.

**Anrakyr-the-Traveller**

Flugel Meister wrote:
Swampmist wrote:
Any wound that is not str D, they get a base 5+ roll to negate, 4+ using the decirion formation. Takes a -1 for any wound with Instant Death.

Do all Necrons have that? And does it apply in CC and when being shot at?

All necrons except canoptek units (who can get it from the canoptek harvest formation), vehicles (they have living metal instead which allows them to ignore some vehicle damage and gives heavy vehicles iwnd 6+), and C'tan shards (who are rarely seen and will almost always have fnp anyways thanks to the conclave of the burning one formation).

It always works, both in cc and shooting. There is no way to stop it anymore (it got changed from being a roll at the end of the phase to a better version of fnp). That is actually what makes it so powerful, along with the ability to get 4+ for the entire army.

**Remtek**

Meph does great vs crons, mostly for counter assaulting wraiths or similar units, only downside is no great unit to put him in without allies and you need to try to not get base to base with a 2+ save character when possible.

Stormravens are pretty good vs gauss spam, dreadnoughts are not very good vs crons, but throwing one onto a stormraven is decent for tarpitting lycnguard with shields or praetorions. Vs wraiths they will go down fairly quick.

In most of my games things that grant instant death seem to be key in winning combats, force or str8/10. Other than that

Necrons are really bad at killing cheap mech. Rhinos in cover for example. Assault Marines/Tacticals won't really do anything to any necron units, but they are cheap and those combats will go on forever which in many cases is not a bad thing.

Against a wraithstar with Orikan we really don't have an answer for that. If you bring libbies try to get invis and tarpit, they can steal the hit'n'run USR which makes Dante kind of a liability.

Beating a random decurion should be doable, but a very optimized one will be really tough.

**Dantes_Baals**

Martel732 wrote:
You would field a CAD in addition to the formation. Or a Baal Strike force, etc. I usually use a CAD to get obj sec.

I personally put priests in the vanguard squads and then use some drop pods with locator beacons. I think my current list has a bunch of scouts and then three units in pods or something like that.

The sanguine wing comes in a bit over 1K. Don't forget the heavy armor for the Stormraven.

I've got 880 just wit JPS and 1st company armory. I usually run em with a CAD but it has to be a pretty sizeable game. Only problem is he doesn't have the models to run Sanguine Wing and a CAD unless he used Raphaen DC.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MacPhail wrote:
Dantes_Baals and others, can I ask for some clarification on Reanimation Protocols and your recommendations for reducing them? I likewise have a tough Necron player in my club I have yet to face. I'm reading this thread with some enthusiasm because it sounds like you all speak from good experience, but it isn't quite sinking in. What are the advantages of the various things you've recommended (HF, PS, PF, Librarian, etc.) against RP? I know about the ID penalty, but there must be other modifiers I'm not aware of. Thanks for clarifying!

Nope it's just the ID penalty afaik. I'll go back to the posts and edit the 6+++. In my defense it was 3am and the keypad is a bitch to clack in the dark. I should have specified that the HF is meant for Warriors and Flayed Ones (actually better to stay away from Flayed Ones all together tbh). Warriors being the primary source for gauss, it's gonna be helpful to smoke em (lol) as soon as possible. And while they still get their RP, 6 or 7 saves at 4+++ or 5+++ is immensely better than 3+.

**MacPhail**

Sweet, thanks. I'll run Battle Sisters against Necrons whenever we meet, so plenty of Scouting meltas, PE flamers, and Rending HFs, all mounted up in transports, some of which will hopefully make it across the table.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fleugel Meister, looking forward to your report next week!

**Dioxalyn**

You should have Pfists in your DC squads, atleast 2 in the 15 man group. I usually run 2Pfists in 7-8 man squads with JPs. DC are tanky enough that the Pfists can usually make it into combat. They are esp valuable against Necrons where their ID attacks reduce the Reanimation by 1. You should also give your Chaplain a teleport homer if you are going to take termies and DS them, for 10 points you can guarantee that your termies can drop down in an ideal position to support your DC.

I would also drop one assault squad to make the other one a suicide metla squad, then fill out your tact marines and add a flamer/combiflamer to each squad. Its perfect that you cant charge out of the rhino, this allows you to sit inside firing templates out of it until he hulls you out, then you charge next turn.

**Sautek Supreme**

I would load up on heavy bolters, whirlwinds, thunder fires, assault cannons, and auto cannons to chew on warriors.

Use melta on those necron vehicles. Don't forget all of them, except the monolith (which is rarely taken nowadays), are open topped.

You will need some assault to break blobs of warriors, but they need to be softened up with shooting first - same with flayed ones. Their counterattack can be harsh if this isn't done.

Also psychic powers are very nice against Necrons as they rarely have a defense for it.

As far as Lychguard and praetorians go......YMMV but I am a fan of missiles - typhoons are nice for this because of their mobility.

Necrons are just super tough. You really have to play a perfect game, and then hope your opponent just has some bad luck with dice rolls.....

**Flugel Meister**

Thanks for the feedback, folks. It's much appreciated!

Anyway, I've tweaked my list slightly.

As ASM squads aren't that great in CC, surprisingly, I've opted to make them into a single 10-man squad, saving me points on the 2nd Sgt and a few other bits and pieces. So I've included a Sanguinary Priest with a JP to give them some added punch and survivability.

I'm running 6 Terminators. But I've dropped 3 of my DC from the larger squad. So there'll only be 12 of them now in the Crusader.

My Chaplain is the Warlord now that I've dropped Mephiston, so I've given him Veritas Vitae to hopefully improve his versatility, as he'll be heading the squad of DC with JP.

Also changed a Rhino for a Razorback.

I've got 19 points left to allocate.

HQ
Chaplain with JP & inferno pistol
Sanguinary Priest with JP and secondary weapon (For the Assault Squad).

ELITES
5 DC with JP (1 PF, 1 PW)
12 DC (2 PF, 2 PW, bolters, pistols, 2 inferno pistols)
6 Terminators (with Cyclone missile launcher) Will Deep Strike.

TROOPS
5 Tactical marines (HF & Razorback)
5 Tactical marines (HF & Rhino)

FAST ATTACK
10 Assault Marines (JP, flamer and 1 Melta. Sgt with Plasma pistol & power sword)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastator Squad (2 Las & 2 Missile Launchers. Sgt with combi-melta in case they're flanked)
Land Raider Crusader (with multi-melta)

**daveh974**

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