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 marv335 wrote:
I'd seriously consider getting one if I had somewhere to store it in the UK.
The range isn't an issue, in fact it's a selling point. It means the in laws are too far away to visit without stopping to charge...

Lol'd pretty hard at this. +1 sir!

I definitely would agree that for some people this car would represent a great value proposition. The cars I am looking at right now would be about the same price as this car, but this car would have thousands of dollars of tax rebates and would no longer require me to buy gasoline. I have a outlet available 3 feet from the hood of my car.

Nonetheless, I would not buy one because I don't live close enough to a major metro area, which means repairs will almost certainly be difficult, I'm not confident that the battery lifespan is what they claim it is, and the Tesla company is not yet a proven entity. My politics lean liberal, but my car buying is deeply conservative and I need a known, proven value.

 Ouze wrote:
I definitely would agree that for some people this car would represent a great value proposition. The cars I am looking at right now would be about the same price as this car, but this car would have thousands of dollars of tax rebates and would no longer require me to buy gasoline. I have a outlet available 3 feet from the hood of my car.

Nonetheless, I would not buy one because I don't live close enough to a major metro area, which means repairs will almost certainly be difficult, I'm not confident that the battery lifespan is what they claim it is, and the Tesla company is not yet a proven entity. My politics lean liberal, but my car buying is deeply conservative and I need a known, proven value.

Go talk to a Telsa representative.

My Aunt (inlaw), got the original and held those same concerns. She's about 80 miles from the Tesla dealer in St. Louis (she lives in the boonies).

They told her that if she's having problems with her car and she can't get it to the shop, they'll send her a loaner and having someone tow the car.

In her experience, customer service has been exceptional with Telsa as they're trying to be really different than traditional car dealers.

I got to ride in her car one time... and my geeky inner-id just orgased with all the thought they've put into this car.

*Plus, she has shown me that Telsa maintains the map wirelessly of all the free turbo-charging stations across the US. You could drive coast-to-coast w/o going out of your way-ish by only stopping at those turbo-charging stations.

 Frazzled wrote:
Tesla owners are the Apple buyers of the auto world.

They offer a premium as a tax on the hipster stupid. Kia, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan all offer better models at cheaper prices.

Considering Tesla's accelerating cash burn, they won't be around in three years.

As a counterpoint to this, I heard about electric bikes about 10yrs ago (saw a piece on a tech gadgets show). The bike was WAY too expensive ($2500-$4000) for even my gotta-have-it mind. Link for those interestedhttp://www.nycewheels.com/tidalforce-m750-review.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.nycewheels.com/tidalforce-m750-review.html. Waited a few years until the price went down and more models were released. When they released a "value priced" --$1500, model for us regular people I dropped down my cash and bought one.

A few years later, the company goes out of business -- suddenly. Fortunately my bike still worked, better than advertised. That was maybe 6yrs ago. This summer I'll use it to ride to work again. Even though the company is defunct, a good product is a good product. I've more than gotten my money out of the bike, and considering that the bikes that show up on Ebay commonly sell above original price, I think others agree that the product was a success even if the company behind it wasn't.

A car doesn't stop working just because the company that made it is out of business. I suspect Tesla owns by and large will be happy with the cars regardless of the fate of the company.

Heybiff


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 Necros wrote:
I like the idea of electric cars, and I like how Tesla were the first or what looked like the first to make electric cars that didn't suck. But, too rich for my blood. I'm sure Apple's iCar will be too.

I want one that has a super high powered solar power sucking paint job, so you never need to fuel up or plug in as long as you don't live in Alaska in the winter time. Maybe by the time someone invents that, we'll have lunar power too?

Already done. Just not rolled out yet. http://www.nanoflexpower.com/automotive

Oddly, I was telling a friend that the Tesla price is about the same as an Accord with decent options, and less than the A4 I was looking at to replace my current DD.

Heybiff


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KTG17 wrote:
I was wondering what people do now if they have to commute a greater distance than the battery charge allows.

I hope the technology for these progresses, but I am not giving up my SUV for some time. And when I do, it will be for another SUV.

Which takes me about 400 miles on a full tank.

Most Americans commute 35miles or less RT daily. With 200miles I can drive all week on a single charge including weekends, and I drive across my city to work with no highway driving. The part that appeals to me most aside from the no IC engine and all the maintenance that entails, is NOT having to ever visit a gas station. Plugging-in in front of my house and topping it off overnight seems like a win.

Moreover, knowing what I know about cars, electric power trains last WAYYYY longer than IC with exponentially less maintenance. Running gear lasts tens of thousands of miles, body parts last hundreds, that just leaves drive train. EC's have pretty simple ones -- motors and axles. That just leaves the electronics and battery.

If I seem like a cheerleader, its only because I REALLY want this to work, so I can get one used in a couple years. Burning gas to move a car around seems way too Industrial Revolution for me.

Heybiff

Indeed... the electric powertrain has less moving parts/fluid needs that regular combustion engine.

The Telsa owners I know (I, I-S and II) tells me that these are easily 20 year cars.

Another thing that shocked me, but shouldn't have surprised me, has how heavy those cars are... one of the main reasons why the ride so nice.

 Ouze wrote:


Nonetheless, I would not buy one because I don't live close enough to a major metro area, which means repairs will almost certainly be difficult, I'm not confident that the battery lifespan is what they claim it is, and the Tesla company is not yet a proven entity. My politics lean liberal, but my car buying is deeply conservative and I need a known, proven value.

We had one technical problem so far, called the customer service and they sent someone over (at our home!) at a time of our choosing. He had a look at it, checked the error and said that he'd need some more equipment. He drove it to the nearest Tesla store and also brought it back, repaired. Their customer service is superb.

Let's be honest here, right now, Teslas is for the higher class who want to show off and feel awesome while driving. Yes, it does feel absolutely amazing and acceleration is ridiculously good, but it's mostly for prestige.

Exactly.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ouze wrote:


Nonetheless, I would not buy one because I don't live close enough to a major metro area, which means repairs will almost certainly be difficult, I'm not confident that the battery lifespan is what they claim it is, and the Tesla company is not yet a proven entity. My politics lean liberal, but my car buying is deeply conservative and I need a known, proven value.

We had one technical problem so far, called the customer service and they sent someone over (at our home!) at a time of our choosing. He had a look at it, checked the error and said that he'd need some more equipment. He drove it to the nearest Tesla store and also brought it back, repaired. Their customer service is superb.

And these kinds of stories would be really reassuring for me, once they have been around for at least 10 years more

That being said, i forgot to mention above - I work 4 miles away, so again, a car like this would be a great deal for me.

At the time of writing, we're looking at 276,000 reservations for the Model 3... let's see if Tesla can (start to) deliver next year..

Personally, I can't make sense of electric cars, from either a cost or an environmental POV, until we have solar panels and battery tech in the house so that the car is able to recharge mostly on domestically produced and stored power. I'm told that tech is just around the corner, and so that's cool, and if does happen then I'll be lining up for the Tesla or some other electric car, but until then...

KTG17 wrote:
I was wondering what people do now if they have to commute a greater distance than the battery charge allows.

I think being impractical for people with a 200 mile daily commute is probably the least of Tesla's problems.

 sebster wrote:
Personally, I can't make sense of electric cars, from either a cost or an environmental POV,.

Electric powertrains are pushing 85%+ efficient. Gas engines and powertrains are, ummm, inefficient. That's being charitable. Most of your $1.90 gas goes out the tailpipe as emissions and into the radiator as heat. Moreover powerplants can do a much better job cleaning their emissions than an individual car can, and economies of scale matter. Our current level of tech does not make gas a great fuel for personal transport. Diesel is only slightly better. Compressed air is better, but good luck buying anything but a golf cart. That leaves electricity as the next most viable choice.

There are people who can make the electric power argument better than I, but in the end, YMMV.

Heybiff

heybiff wrote:
Electric powertrains are pushing 85%+ efficient. Gas engines and powertrains are, ummm, inefficient. That's being charitable. Most of your $1.90 gas goes out the tailpipe as emissions and into the radiator as heat. Moreover powerplants can do a much better job cleaning their emissions than an individual car can, and economies of scale matter. Our current level of tech does not make gas a great fuel for personal transport. Diesel is only slightly better. Compressed air is better, but good luck buying anything but a golf cart. That leaves electricity as the next most viable choice.

Powerplants can do a better job of cleaning their emissions, but right now... As long as coal provides most of the base load for power I don't see the environmental argument. I understand the power source varies state by state in the US just as it varies everywhere else in the world, but I've never seen anyone make the argument that, say, electric is better in Nevada because a lot of their base power is hydroelectric.

I'd also be interested in learning how much it costs in metered power to drive a fixed distance, say 100 miles, in either petrol or in electricity. Does anyone have numbers like that?

 sebster wrote:

I'd also be interested in learning how much it costs in metered power to drive a fixed distance, say 100 miles, in either petrol or in electricity. Does anyone have numbers like that?

I've seen something like that on Tesla junkie forums. I'll try to do some digging.

Basically, if you own the first two Telsa models and own the car for at least 10 years, your cost of ownership is lower than your average luxury car. Or something like...

 sebster wrote:

heybiff wrote:
Electric powertrains are pushing 85%+ efficient. Gas engines and powertrains are, ummm, inefficient. That's being charitable. Most of your $1.90 gas goes out the tailpipe as emissions and into the radiator as heat. Moreover powerplants can do a much better job cleaning their emissions than an individual car can, and economies of scale matter. Our current level of tech does not make gas a great fuel for personal transport. Diesel is only slightly better. Compressed air is better, but good luck buying anything but a golf cart. That leaves electricity as the next most viable choice.

Powerplants can do a better job of cleaning their emissions, but right now... As long as coal provides most of the base load for power I don't see the environmental argument

Sooo you'd prefer to breathe in carbon monoxide etc, then? Or have an increased potential for cancer and respiratory problems perhaps?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098917_tesla-model-3-speculating-on-batteries-power-price-versions

344: Entry-level, single-motor, rear-wheel drive version, with a base price of $35,000, EPA range of 220 miles from a 44-kWh battery, and 0-to-60-mph time of 5.6 seconds
366D: Dual-motor AWD standard version with an EPA range of 320 miles from a 66-kWh battery. 0-60 time 4.7 seconds, price $44,000

At £0.13224 per KWh (Scottish Power's standard tariff), they would cost between £5.81 to get 220 miles (£0.026 per mile) and £8.72 to get 320 miles (£0.027 per mile) out of them.
I get around 330 miles out of my Civic, at £47 to fill up. That is around £0.14 per mile.

It is looking to be a good option if you do a lot of miles, but then you hit the range and recharge time issues.
The renewable-to-fossil electricity ratios are only going to go up, too.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Sooo you'd prefer to breathe in carbon monoxide etc, then? Or have an increased potential for cancer and respiratory problems perhaps?

What an extraordinarily disingenuous, gakky argument. Of course carbon monoxide is bad, all emissions are bad. The point is not to get all happy that emissions are no longer coming from our cars, but are instead happening down the road at the coal plant that produces the power the car runs on.


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 Skinnereal wrote:
I get around 330 miles out of my Civic, at £47 to fill up. That is around £0.14 per mile.

Holy crap what are your petrol taxes like? I thought ours were high...

Anyhow, even with our cheaper petrol, or maybe it's my Mazda 6 being more fuel efficient, I'm getting 750kms, or 450 miles, for a tank that costs me $65, or £32.50 to fill up. Different but nowhere near different enough that it changes the basic equation - the electric car is way cheaper to run.

The renewable-to-fossil electricity ratios are only going to go up, too.

Yes. I think the real game changer comes when home batteries come in at an affordable rate, so we can use solar panels on our roofs, store that and then recharge our cars. But even without that this is looking like a pretty decent option.

Petrol and diesel here is currently around £1.06 per litre. Tax is a huge amount, but there is little production around here, and it needs to be shipped in.
From Wiki:

From 23 March 2011 the UK duty rate for the road fuels unleaded petrol, diesel, biodiesel and bioethanol is GB£0.5795 per litre.
Value Added Tax at 20% is also charged on the price of the fuel and on the duty.

So, anything to get away from the pumps is good, and our commutes are usually less than in most countries. Being on a crowded little island helps there.