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I remembered a rule incorrectly, and it affected the outcome of a game.
I caught it before the next game and went to the organizer. I apologized to the other player, had my score for that round dropped to 0, had the other player get full marks, and the tournament carried on.
It was not malicious, nor do I feel it warranted me getting tossed from the tournament. It was a mistake.
kronk wrote: I remembered a rule incorrectly, and it affected the outcome of a game.
I caught it before the next game and went to the organizer. I apologized to the other player, had my score for that round dropped to 0, had the other player get full marks, and the tournament carried on.
It was not malicious, nor do I feel it warranted me getting tossed from the tournament. It was a mistake.
Every circumstance is unique, and it sounds like this one was handled perfectly. The best part is that it was handled by you. Kudos.
easysauce wrote: Right mistakes lose you games, its not a big deal.
Giving people who make mistakes prizes is a pretty big deal though.
Some people seem to think its punishing to do so, when in fact, its just normalizing things.
Not getting a prize is not a punishment, otherwise 99% of attendees are being "punished" already.
Getting a prize is just that, a reward, and making mistakes should not be rewarded is all.
I don't know if there's ever been a mistake-free game of 40k played, though . Whether it's getting a movement distance slightly off, bumping a model, forgetting a damage result, misplaying a rule... it's obviously a matter of degrees, and imo this is just too broad a brush to paint things with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/06 00:20:25
easysauce wrote: Right mistakes lose you games, its not a big deal.
Giving people who make mistakes prizes is a pretty big deal though.
Some people seem to think its punishing to do so, when in fact, its just normalizing things.
Not getting a prize is not a punishment, otherwise 99% of attendees are being "punished" already.
Getting a prize is just that, a reward, and making mistakes should not be rewarded is all.
I don't know if there's ever been a mistake-free game of 40k played, though . Whether it's getting a movement distance slightly off, bumping a model, forgetting a damage result, misplaying a rule... it's obviously a matter of degrees, and imo this is just too broad a brush to paint things with.
Come on now we are obviously not talking about simple things like that, we are talking about the mistakes made in the context of this thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/06 02:13:06
I don't see how it's that clear - bottom of last page, we're discussing a mistake where trading a gift is illegal. And I agree with Hulk that it's a "played a rule wrong mistake" rather than a true list mistake. But it probably had a much bigger effect on games than being a point over... just like playing many rules wrong would. Where do you draw the line?
I'm just making this point to highlight how common game altering mistakes can be... I don't see how the issue can be treated so black and white with a ruleset like this is all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/06 02:38:52
In my yute I played competition paintball. Yes there were some sponsors but the dime is primarily flipped by the team. After paying thousands of dollars for competitive gear, paintballs, travel, registration and lodging. Guess what happens when a team commits a certain lists of fouls/cheats?
Forfeits, bans, DQ's and loss of sponsors/reputation.
If someone is "cheating" to win, they are stealing. This is a discredit to the coordinators of the event and the rule abiding money paying players that slave and triple check their lists. If the "system" can't regulate itself because its hard, make it a tee-ball event. Everybody gets a little participation trophy or plaque and the winner wins the internet and has their name in lights. Otherwise prize support needs to be regulated by rules and oversight. I hate paying for cheaters(call a duck) prizes with my registration fee. I hung up my 40K tourney cap when 'ard boyz died on the vine. This thread is the exact reason.
Byte wrote: In my yute I played competition paintball. Yes there were some sponsors but the dime is primarily flipped by the team. After paying thousands of dollars for competitive gear, paintballs, travel, registration and lodging. Guess what happens when a team commits a certain lists of fouls/cheats?
Now that you mention it, maybe there ought to be a distinction between "fouls" in 40k and things that straight out DQ you or etc. There might be something to that idea.
Byte wrote: I hung up my 40K tourney cap when 'ard boyz died on the vine. This thread is the exact reason.
Did something give you the idea that this problem didn't exist at 'Ard Boyz? Because there was all kinds of nonsense happening there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/06 13:10:31
Byte wrote: I hung up my 40K tourney cap when 'ard boyz died on the vine. This thread is the exact reason.
Did something give you the idea that this problem didn't exist at 'Ard Boyz? Because there was all kinds of nonsense happening there.
No, of course not. I've played competitively since 1995, I've seen it all in all shapes and sizes. I actually enjoyed that series with the 2500 point armies, thanks for asking.
Oh BTW, I don't attend and won't attend. Until something definitive comes out regulating/enforcing army lists. But, I'm just one dude, right?
I do understand the monumental task of putting together one of these huge events. But, at some point the inmates are running the asylum.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/06 15:23:41
I still don't understand why you yanks don't have lists handed in atleast a week or two in advance. That's what we do up here in BC... But admittedly, they are (a lot) smaller scale than something as big as the LVO.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Sure you can turn your list in a few weeks in advance. But unless someone is reviewing each list that knows that army very well they will still miss things. You would probably catch some mistakes but that is a huge task and not guaranteed to catch all of them or any of them. Also what if the T.O. misses a mistake on a list but gives it the stamp of approval? Is it now the T.O.s fault? Seems pretty unfair to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/18 23:21:24
durango wrote: The TOs should always review army lists. Not doing so is just passing the buck.
I haven't met a player yet who was willing to pay the extra $$$ to cover the cost of a TO checking lists. I have 3 rules that I apply to running my events:
1. I'll stop doing it when it stops being fun
2. It can't cost me anything more than the amount of time I am willing to invest
3. I'm catering to all of the attendees, not just the winner
I turn 100% of the entry fees into the event and I invest a ton of time. Checking lists in detail for 64 players would violate #2 above. The only way that I would invest 30-40 hours into checking lists is if I was compensated for the time away from my family or work, and I'm far too expensive to bill my time to the event.
You may say it is passing the buck. I'm saying you're suggesting an unfunded mandate. If you want to pay $40 for an RTT and north of $100 for a GT, then I'm sure you can get a TO to check them all day long.
^ I'm by no means rolling in money, but this is meant for perspective.
I like to run big races, and its really not uncommon for a marathon to be in the $50+ range and ultras to reach into the hundreds. Most all of these events (especially ultras) are volunteer driven and completely absorb the race director(s) for 48 hours or more, not to mention all that goes into it prior to the race.
For a game like Warhammer 40k that is legendary at this point for the cost of even collecting an 1850 pt army let alone the units you arent using in the tourny, I wouldnt bat an eye at seeing "north of $100" for a GT, especially with the kind of cash prizes we're seeing and the ranking structure out there.
I dont want to price out players, but competitive play is NOT cheap by its nature.
durango wrote: The TOs should always review army lists. Not doing so is just passing the buck.
I haven't met a player yet who was willing to pay the extra $$$ to cover the cost of a TO checking lists.
Why would it cost extra to get someone to do something they already volunteered to do?
If you want to run the event, you should run the event.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 15:44:15
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
durango wrote: The TOs should always review army lists. Not doing so is just passing the buck.
I haven't met a player yet who was willing to pay the extra $$$ to cover the cost of a TO checking lists.
Why would it cost extra to get someone to do something they already volunteered to do?
If you want to run the event, you should run the event.
Because I'm unwilling to donate that additional and significant amount of time to the event that I already do out of love for the game. Players should be responsible for their own lists. They have every tool required to make sure their lists are legal. I spot check. Why should players pass the buck to the TO? If I find an illegal list I deal with it harshly. Run a legal list and there won't be any issues.
MLKTH wrote: Having all players turn in lists a week or so before the tournament and posting them online for other players to spot any mistakes is a really good way of weeding out illegal lists. Crowdsourcing is the way to go here.
I run tournaments that have 40-50 players, so I can manage it by just having players e-mail me their lists and copying and pasting them on a forum. For an american style 200+ player GT that would be way too much work, but it could probably be automated into a website where you submit a list and could only edit it if the TO approved the changes (usually only to correct mistakes).
Crowd sourcing On major tournaments I agree is the way to go!!!
Heck do it like GW put it on Facebook and generate a million page hits and some ad revenue :p
Even if it's only 24hr or 12hr in advance it will work.
Any mistakes found can be changed before the tournament officially begins and if one slips through then have the player remove said mistake when it's discovered and have them play without those points for the rest of the tournament.
This can be as simple as scanning in lists sheets.
Smaller events (40 or less players) can review them by hand or just have the players police themselves however they should always have a list for thier opponent to review.
Because I'm unwilling to donate that additional and significant amount of time to the event that I already do out of love for the game.
What significant amount of time? You have plenty of time while waiting for all the games to take place.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Because I'm unwilling to donate that additional and significant amount of time to the event that I already do out of love for the game.
What significant amount of time? You have plenty of time while waiting for all the games to take place.
Seriously, punchdub. What is wrong with you?
All you have to do is post that there will be a tournament, get the lists, review the lists, then run the tournament.
It's not like you have to spend months building the terrain, working out the details with the venue to make sure you have tables, chairs, and the room required. You certainly don't have to reply to the hundreds of emails asking if this ork with shoota is close enough WYSIWYG for a Riptide or if they can take 4 detachments to the tournament with a 2 detachment limit. You also never have to tell the same person 3 times the date and time of the event that is clearly posted in the original announcement. You never have to get your prize support organized and decide how to divvy everything up. And forget trophies, as no one appreciates them.
Man. You TOs have it too fething easy. Just buy all of the fething rulebooks, codecies, and supplements and check all 50 entries to your tournament, already. And you better not miss that 1 point for the bolt pistol either, you fething feth from feth-land!
Spoiler:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/19 17:46:19
I don't think it should be the responsibility of the TO. It should be on the players to make sure they have it right. I understand it's complicated maths, but if you've made a mistake, it's on you and you should no longer have the same amount of possibility of taking home grand prize as people who didn't make any mistakes.
There's no way to truly tell if someone does a list feth up on purpose, but that doesn't mean everyone who does should get away with it, just because people know they're good at the game anyway. There should be a penalty of some kind on the player. It can be case-by-case, sure. But something, every time, that makes coming in 1st place harder, or less rewarding.
BossJakadakk wrote: It should be on the players to make sure they have it right.
The same players who are awarded for cheating? Yeah, they're completely trustworthy.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
BossJakadakk wrote: It should be on the players to make sure they have it right.
The same players who are awarded for cheating? Yeah, they're completely trustworthy.
Yeah, I see what you mean. I meant make them responsible if caught, and punish them. There does need to be some sort of check in place.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I get that it would take a lot of time to check lists and such, but really, if list "mistakes" are winning tournaments and there's no repercussion, what message does that send?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/19 19:16:57
And I get that it would take a lot of time to check lists and such, but really, if list "mistakes" are winning tournaments and there's no repercussion, what message does that send?
This is exactly what is already happening. The message being sent is "cheat as often as possible".
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
And I get that it would take a lot of time to check lists and such, but really, if list "mistakes" are winning tournaments and there's no repercussion, what message does that send?
This is exactly what is already happening. The message being sent is "cheat as often as possible".
As a new player who wants to get into the tournament scene within the next year, seeing these issues really makes me think twice about it.
And I get that it would take a lot of time to check lists and such, but really, if list "mistakes" are winning tournaments and there's no repercussion, what message does that send?
This is exactly what is already happening. The message being sent is "cheat as often as possible".
As a new player who wants to get into the tournament scene within the next year, seeing these issues really makes me think twice about it.
Issues like this are why I'm not participating in the WarGamesCon 2016 events as a player, but as a volunteer. I want to get an understanding of what the TO's of large events go through and I'd like to offer my expertise in the area. I'll have to speak with the person running it to see if he wants lists early or at all, but I think the event organizers should collect a list from all players at the start of the event. Not only for record keeping but for integrity as well. Don't want someone to be changing lists up to tailor to their opponents.
And I get that it would take a lot of time to check lists and such, but really, if list "mistakes" are winning tournaments and there's no repercussion, what message does that send?
This is exactly what is already happening. The message being sent is "cheat as often as possible".
As a new player who wants to get into the tournament scene within the next year, seeing these issues really makes me think twice about it.
Issues like this are why I'm not participating in the WarGamesCon 2016 events as a player, but as a volunteer. I want to get an understanding of what the TO's of large events go through and I'd like to offer my expertise in the area. I'll have to speak with the person running it to see if he wants lists early or at all, but I think the event organizers should collect a list from all players at the start of the event. Not only for record keeping but for integrity as well. Don't want someone to be changing lists up to tailor to their opponents.
I'd be very interested in hearing your experience with this.
. Whether it's getting a movement distance slightly off, bumping a model, forgetting a damage result, misplaying a rule... it's obviously a matter of degrees, and 
