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Ok, let's assume you wanted to take Genestealers. Stretching the suspension of disbelief here, but let's give it a go. Would you bother with Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs, Adrenalin Glands or a Broodlord? What about Broodlord options, regen or acid blood?

I've managed to get my hands on the Space Hulk 'Stealers and I'm going to use them + a few spare 'Stealers to play as the Manufactorum Brood. 5x5 'Stealer units get hit'n'run and can infiltrate close when in ruins. If I pile too many points on them then the whole point os MSU is kinda wasted but on the other hand they need to be powerful enough to make a difference if they reach combat with reduced numbers. I'm thinking naked with Adrenalin Glands because hitting on 3's wounding on 3's is quite reliable and it helps them pen rear armour. Maybe throw in 2 Brood Lords? Where is the fine line between making a unit good at it's role vs just piling points on a fragile unit?

I take nothing on them b.c they are already over costed by 5-7pts (Depending on who you talk to).

Edit: Also note, if you are going to buy them, you can buy a couple ST (there is a math point where if you had 7-9 bodies its more costly to buy 2 ST then it is to buy 2 more bodies or something like thta) So there are situations that ST is better if you are looking for more attacks in the long runs, but I like 5 + 1 Brood lord naked.

If you wanted upgrades for Brood Lord, never do Regen, its extremely over costed for what little it does.

Toxin on a broodlord thats it for upgrades in my stealer broods anything else i feel is a waste. The tox works as there base s5 so get the rerolls on most infantry models.

Maybe it's worth giving 2 units out of the 5 Adrenal glands to work as anti-tank. 5 Stealers get 15 attacks, 10 hit, usually 5's and 6's to actually do stuff should give me 2/3 hull points worth of damage vs rear armour 10. It even helps vs Walkers, because 5+6+minimum of 1 means that a rend will always at least glance his front armour 12 and 10 dice will likely yield 1 or 2 6's.

If it helps my list is also taking the Broodkin formation and Deathleapers Assasin brood, so I have a lot of rending attacks out and about in the opponents deployment zone.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Maybe it's worth giving 2 units out of the 5 Adrenal glands to work as anti-tank. 5 Stealers get 15 attacks, 10 hit, usually 5's and 6's to actually do stuff should give me 2/3 hull points worth of damage vs rear armour 10. It even helps vs Walkers, because 5+6+minimum of 1 means that a rend will always at least glance his front armour 12 and 10 dice will likely yield 1 or 2 6's.

If it helps my list is also taking the Broodkin formation and Deathleapers Assasin brood, so I have a lot of rending attacks out and about in the opponents deployment zone.

S4 + rending vs back armor of Av10 you shouldnt need AG on them. You can almost glance it down, and if you get 1-2 rends you should be fine. With a broodlord too you really should be ok.

Bare bones 5 stealer squads for objective grabbing. They die too fast to give them upgrades.

Several "5 stealers with a broodlord" units can be useful. You use "the horror" on important targets and suddenly this riptide/centurion unit can't shoot.
As they can infiltrate, it is easy to be in range.

 godardc wrote:
Several "5 stealers with a broodlord" units can be useful. You use "the horror" on important targets and suddenly this riptide/centurion unit can't shoot.
As they can infiltrate, it is easy to be in range.

I thought the Horror didnt work on units with atsknf

ATSKNF is auto pass fear and regroup, plus can't be swept in combat. Does Horror have a wording that makes it countered by ATFSKNF?

I usually just buy the scything talons on the Broodlord for an extra attack and be done with it there. Most of the biomorphs available to the Broodlord are either ridiculously high cost (regeneration) or doesn't really improve his overall combat performance (basically everything else). Even Tox Sacs can be somewhat wasteful given that he's already S5 and can rend. Normal Genestealers I just go straight up vanilla, as the upgrades add up way too fast to be reasonable. The fact that the only upgrades they have don't really fix the Genestealer's problems (adrenal glands sorta fixes their slow speed with fleet, but nowhere near enough) also makes them less appealing to get.

nareik wrote:
ATSKNF is auto pass fear and regroup, plus can't be swept in combat. Does Horror have a wording that makes it countered by ATFSKNF?

I dbl checked, it works, but basically only for your turn haha, So if you wanted a charge with no overwatch then it is fine.

I like to think of genestealers as nothing more than ablative wounds for the Brood lord. Infiltrating/out flanking MSU style objective grabbers that don't require synapse, and also adds a warp charge and can pin a unit for 130 points. The Broodlord is what makes them semi worth it. Everything else is a waste of points. I've used them that way, and they were ok. Can even be good against non-marine armies like Tau or Admech.

^ exactly what Bonzai said.

Can I ask you why genestealers are better against Tau or Admech than SM ?

 godardc wrote:
^ exactly what Bonzai said.

Can I ask you why genestealers are better against Tau or Admech than SM ?

If you have a Broodlord, the Horror, It makes them take Pinning test with a -2 leadership. You can Infiltrate a unit or few close enough to use it then next turn use it again and charge. If tau shoots at them they are dead, there is nothing you can do to stop it, marker Lights + Ap4/5 with S4-6 = Dead Genestealers.

But this is very risky and costly still.

Another point in their favor is their small unit size. If I have 3 units of 5+Broodlord you have to pump 2 markerlights into each unit if you want to ignore their cover. If you don't ignore my cover and your shooting with a squad that'll put a dent in me (almost any squad really) I'll go to ground. Probably Broodlord survives. I can continue to cast the Horror and be a CC threat (either to absorb overwatch or to support charge) unless you dedicate another unit to shoot at him.

Most Tau have a limited number of Markerlight units, usually 2 with a few Markerlights extra sprinkled around. If I can force him to use those Markerlights on the unit of 5 Stealers that's a bonus for me.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/686084.page

This is the army list I'd be playing. Choosing where to aim those Markerlights would be very hard against this kinda army!

godardc wrote:Several "5 stealers with a broodlord" units can be useful. You use "the horror" on important targets and suddenly this riptide/centurion unit can't shoot.
As they can infiltrate, it is easy to be in range.

Just to point out, the Horror causes a pinning check, and MCs can't be pinned - so that Riptide would still be shooting you.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:The fact that the only upgrades they have don't really fix the Genestealer's problems (adrenal glands sorta fixes their slow speed with fleet, but nowhere near enough) also makes them less appealing to get.

Genestealers have fleet base, so AG only gives them furious charge.

As for upgrades, I'd never give the stealers anything really - they're too fragile for it to be worth it. I only sometimes add a scytal here and there to fill in the last few points of a list if there's no other good option.

Speaking of, the one thing I'd never leave home without on the broodlord is scytal. 4 points for an extra attack is well worth it! Toxin also seems like a reasonable bet if you have the points.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

nareik wrote:
ATSKNF is auto pass fear and regroup, plus can't be swept in combat. Does Horror have a wording that makes it countered by ATFSKNF?

I dbl checked, it works, but basically only for your turn haha, So if you wanted a charge with no overwatch then it is fine.

Pinned units go to ground, and when units have gone to ground I believe you don't suffer an initiative penalty for charging through cover at them. So I suppose it is useful in that way too?