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Hey, so the Blood Angels Moritat consul can take a hand flamer if he chooses. Since the Moritat gets to keep shooting his pistol until he misses, does that mean he gets to shoot the hand flamer infinite times at anything he can theoretically hit, guaranteeing a kill on anything the hand flamer can theoretically wound? (anything T6 or less, and nothing with an armor value)
I feel like this is the sort of thing that will get FAQed, but it hasn't happened yet, so how do you guys feel about this?

On one hand, it's the ultimate dick move, but on the other hand, I really want to deep strike a moritat next to Horus, and hand-flamer him to death in one shooting phase.
HERESY OVER *blows smoke from barrel of hand flamer, twirls and holsters it*


SECOND QUESTION

This isn't a dick move / rule question, this is just a tactic question. What do you guys like better for the Moritat, inferno pistol or archeotech pistol?

a lot of things with the blood angels seem rushed, or blatantly silly (i.e. you can have a dread with an undersling assault cannon on each of his power fists.) As for the hand flamers, technically you are correct, though the rules say you gotta roll to hit (if i recall correclty), so I guess there's a balancing point. I'd hope they give it something like the plasma pistols get's hot (since you are putting a stupid amount of pressure on the gun)

as for tactics, I run him with dual volkites, or 1 volkite and 1 plasma pistol. (he can't take archeotech pistols, iirc) and inferno pistols just don't have the range to be worth the points.

Ugh, I'm afraid to say that you're not the first person to notice this.
You're essentially correct; RaW, the Moritat gets infinite hits and will automatically kill everything he touches. That said;
1- It is absolutely, 100% guaranteed to be errata'd out in the next update. I would be amazed if any judge enforces this at an event game.
2- We have a FW email response saying that it doesn't work. Hardly what I'd call a resolved case, but it sets a precedent that it's not going to last.
3- If my opponent is going to be enough of a donkey-cave to play like that, I'll enforce RaW to the fullest extent. It can take a lot of power out of the kit when you play hard.

He get's infinite hits, but by the rules he can only allocate them to models within range. His range is simply 'Template'. There is absolutely no permission anywhere for him to move the template other than 'covering the largest number of models he can possibly hit'.
So he'll walk* up, lay down a template over ~4 dudes, and then crispy fry them into oblivion. Sure it sucks if one of those models was Horus, but then you could have avoided it by clumping his bodyguards up to present a bigger target, keeping him on the other side of the unit, or simply using a transport.

*I say walk because he has an 8" range and no scatter mitigation of any kind. He can't use Teleport Homers or Nuncio Voxes, he can't benefit from Rites or psychic powers, and so he has a 66% chance to scatter away into nothing.
You are either betting on a 1/3 chance that he'll even be in range, or he's Jumping into range for Turn 2 with no bodyguards to protect him.

He's still cheesy and a giant red flag that you're playing an unpleasant game, but he's not unbeatable. I'd honestly say that old Marbo was worse because while he wasn't an instant-kill, he was impossibly accurate and would always get that template off every time.

As for the second, I think it's Inferno every time. Chain Fire was not designed for a Melta weapon and even Armoured Ceramite can crack under enough S8/Ap1.

 Brennonjw wrote:
blatantly silly (i.e. you can have a dread with an undersling assault cannon on each of his power fists.)

That sure is a funny way to say awesome.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
blatantly silly (i.e. you can have a dread with an undersling assault cannon on each of his power fists.)

That sure is a funny way to say awesome.

true, but i still think it's silly, and I'm tempted to add this model to my shattered legions force if it doesn't get faq'd:
a leviathan dreadnought, w/ grav + claw, swapping the nipple-mounted heavy flamers for assault cannons

Do it, You'll put out a good amount of fire.

Oh man, the extra assault cannons are wayyyy too cool, so those better not get erratta'd out.
Already in the process of building a contemptor with a terminator sized assault cannon protruding from his fist, looks sooooo cool
Also, even better than the leviathan with the twin assault cannons (which is very very good), the deredeo with the twin assault cannons. You're only replacing one twin linked flamer, so you're paying 5 points for a twin linked assault cannon (that has a way lower chance of blowing up) tacked on to your already very shooty dreadnought with optional skyfire. Whoah.
Also, 45 attack bikes with assault cannons. Whoah.
Also, that heavy weapon squad where for 25 points you get a marine with an assault cannon. Also, whoah. Would love to stuff ten of those guys into a drop pod.

So yeah, Blood Angels have enough 30k win to make me feel not bad about their 40k suckiness, and their current lack of special squads, special characters, and a primarch.


Back onto the moritat, brennon, the RAW don't say you need to roll to hit, so the flamer trick absolutely does work.
I'm not surprised the forge world guy got back to you saying this isn't allowed, and, as Mozzamanx pointed out, it's powerful, but circumstantial. You've got to be within 8" range, it'll only kill the guys under the template (probably four dudes). So yeah, it could kill horus, but dual inferno pistols could do the same and waste a titan, and dual archeotech pistols could easily kill 10-20 marines.

Well, thanks for your responses guys, I'll magnetize his pistols when I build him, and I'll probably stick to dual inferno for most of my games. Thanks!

I don't understand why players coming form 40k to 30k can't just play fluffy like it is supposed to be. No, they have to min/max waacah this game too.

Yo, 30k is still a strategy game with rules, not a bang green plastic soldiers together and go *pew pew* like I'm five.
I live in an apartment building with a dude who plays orks, and a dude who plays chaos marines, and I play blood angels, so we have three garbage armies and we play fun casual games all the time, but when I'm going into public, to some gaming store, to play random nerds in a tournament that probably also has a prize, I'm going to play to win, because, duh, that's the point.

 Walnuts wrote:
Yo, 30k is still a strategy game with rules, not a bang green plastic soldiers together and go *pew pew* like I'm five.
I live in an apartment building with a dude who plays orks, and a dude who plays chaos marines, and I play blood angels, so we have three garbage armies and we play fun casual games all the time, but when I'm going into public, to some gaming store, to play random nerds in a tournament that probably also has a prize, I'm going to play to win, because, duh, that's the point.

true, but you can with in 30k without trying to cheese it up like some WAAC bum. that's the wonderful part about 30k: most people who play it, play it for fluff, since 40k is a better game for cheese. There are no terrible armies in 30k: only a few bad wargear options (only the rotor cannon comes to mind) and some sub-optimal units. Beyond that, blood angels are solid enough without abusing things like the twin-hand flamer moritat (which has already been decried by forge world, apparently) and assault cannon "oversight".

 Walnuts wrote:

Also, that heavy weapon squad where for 25 points you get a marine with an assault cannon. Also, whoah. Would love to stuff ten of those guys into a drop pod.

I can't imagine why you'd want that in a drop pod: Illiastus Assault Cannons are still Heavy. A 10-man AssCan squad is about the same points as a 9-man Plasma Gun Support Squad, either squads is going to get prioritized and massacred the turn after it arrives but the latter would do far more damage when it arrives.

 Gashrog wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:

Also, that heavy weapon squad where for 25 points you get a marine with an assault cannon. Also, whoah. Would love to stuff ten of those guys into a drop pod.

I can't imagine why you'd want that in a drop pod: Illiastus Assault Cannons are still Heavy. A 10-man AssCan squad is about the same points as a 9-man Plasma Gun Support Squad, either squads is going to get prioritized and massacred the turn after it arrives but the latter would do far more damage when it arrives.

Oh shoot, you're right, good point. Assault cannon is heavy, heavy flamer is assault. In soviet russia, dice rolls youuuuu


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:


true, but you can with in 30k without trying to cheese it up like some WAAC bum. that's the wonderful part about 30k: most people who play it, play it for fluff, since 40k is a better game for cheese. There are no terrible armies in 30k: only a few bad wargear options (only the rotor cannon comes to mind) and some sub-optimal units. Beyond that, blood angels are solid enough without abusing things like the twin-hand flamer moritat (which has already been decried by forge world, apparently) and assault cannon "oversight".

Right which is why I had this conversation with my fellow gamers here instead of just building the guy up and playing with him. Considering anyone's Moritat can drop down with twin archeotech pistols and easily put over 20 S6 AP3 hits on a squad within 12", he can easily fry 400 pts worth of marines, do serious damage to anything without a 2+ armor save, and destroy the back armor of most vehicles. The RAW blood angel hand flamer guy has to get within 8", and can fry any infantry model with T6 or less under a single tear drop, which COULD be horus, but would probably just be 4 marines with maybe some kind of less fancy character. A twin inferno pistol guy has to get within 6" but can fry just about any vehicle up to a titan, or put a half dozen of AP1 wounds on infantry.

Honestly, out of all of these, I feel the inferno pistol guy might be the best because he's the most versatile. I honestly like the hand flamer guy because I would love to see the face on my opponent after making their special character go POOF, but if it's the sort of thing forgeworld is going to errata away, then I'm not going to bother with it.

Oh, and I refuse to not use assault cannons because an entire rule is 'probably' (but not really) and oversight. Even if they cost a more reasonable heavy flamer +10 or 15 points, I'd still be building stuff with 'em, because a dreadnought bristling with assault cannons is JUST TOO COOL.

moritats cannot take archeotech pistols, only praetors, magos, and lord marshals, I don't know who told you they could take them, but they are misinformed

The assault cannon rule is cool, but to pretend that it's not ridiculous (or a possible over sight) is more than a bit silly. The core fact that you can bring a dreadnought (or contemptor dreadnought) with 2 Dreadnought CCWs and 2 Assault cannons (something literally not done anywhere else seems an awfully lot like something the editors missed) is really close to a TFG move. "Well, the rules don't say I cant!"

Yeah, I wish I could take archeotech pistols, but regular Moritats can't.
I think the main problem with the hand flamers is that if the target can be wounded, they WILL die. No doubts. Because they always hit, they can keep going. All of the other variants, whilst they might have a higher damage output, they still need to roll to hit. An infernus pistol could kill a Titan, but they need to hit every single shot.

The hand flamer simply needs to cover you with it's template, and then keeps going until you die. It doesn't care about your save, or your wounds. It keeps going until you fail enough saves and you roast alive in your armour.

EDIT - And yeah - I think the rule is oversight. The way the dreadnought is modelled and that FW haven't really got any way to represent it pretty much says it in my mind.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, I wish I could take archeotech pistols, but regular Moritats can't.
I think the main problem with the hand flamers is that if the target can be wounded, they WILL die. No doubts. Because they always hit, they can keep going. All of the other variants, whilst they might have a higher damage output, they still need to roll to hit. An infernus pistol could kill a Titan, but they need to hit every single shot.

The hand flamer simply needs to cover you with it's template, and then keeps going until you die. It doesn't care about your save, or your wounds. It keeps going until you fail enough saves and you roast alive in your armour.

EDIT - And yeah - I think the rule is oversight. The way the dreadnought is modelled and that FW haven't really got any way to represent it pretty much says it in my mind.

Agree with you on the hand flamer, instant auto-kill is totally OP, should be errata'd out, is going to be errata'd out, and I will not be using it. As for the assault cannon thing though, that's an insane argument because there's no way to model a heavy flamer / assault cannon replacement in most cases.
Terminators, yes
Land speeders, yes
tanks, all variants, no (considering they end up going where sponsons currently go)
attack bikes, no
dreadnoughts, no
rhinos, no

It's just a variant that makes for some cool conversions and is arguably under-costed, but hardly game breaking. It helps make melee dreads viable, which is a blood angel thing, wherease without this sort of option, they are not viable.
A contemptor with a kheres assault cannon and one close combat weapon costs 190 pts.
A contemptor with two close combat weapons and two assault cannons costs 205.

The 2nd dread has two more assault cannon shots and 4 attacks instead of 3, however it costs 15 points more, its guns can blow themselves up, and it lacks a twin-bolter (which is sort of pew-pew who cares, but can be upgraded to something cooler).
I'd hardly say the one is OP compared to the other, and considering most of the Legions have primarchs and specials squads of really cool powerful models, I'll gladly take what I can here.

 Walnuts wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Yeah, I wish I could take archeotech pistols, but regular Moritats can't.
I think the main problem with the hand flamers is that if the target can be wounded, they WILL die. No doubts. Because they always hit, they can keep going. All of the other variants, whilst they might have a higher damage output, they still need to roll to hit. An infernus pistol could kill a Titan, but they need to hit every single shot.

The hand flamer simply needs to cover you with it's template, and then keeps going until you die. It doesn't care about your save, or your wounds. It keeps going until you fail enough saves and you roast alive in your armour.

EDIT - And yeah - I think the rule is oversight. The way the dreadnought is modelled and that FW haven't really got any way to represent it pretty much says it in my mind.

It's just a variant that makes for some cool conversions and is arguably under-costed, but hardly game breaking. It helps make melee dreads viable, which is a blood angel thing, wherease without this sort of option, they are not viable.
A contemptor with a kheres assault cannon and one close combat weapon costs 190 pts.
A contemptor with two close combat weapons and two assault cannons costs 205.

The 2nd dread has two more assault cannon shots and 4 attacks instead of 3, however it costs 15 points more, its guns can blow themselves up, and it lacks a twin-bolter (which is sort of pew-pew who cares, but can be upgraded to something cooler).
I'd hardly say the one is OP compared to the other, and considering most of the Legions have primarchs and specials squads of really cool powerful models, I'll gladly take what I can here.

from your comments on dreadnoughts, you may be still in a bit of a 40k mind set.

1) melee dreads, while still fragile are more deadly in 30k then 40k (the contemptor's ability to kill off 4 marines, and sweep the now fleeing squad (since fearless is basically non-existant) means they are damn scary if once they get into CC. this applies to box dreads as well, since you can back up their punches with AP: 3 templates and what not.
2) 15 points for 2 more assault cannon shots and 1-2 extra S: 10 AP: 2 attacks is hardly "not much" when the guns only jam on tripple 1's. The twin-linked bolter is where the assault cannons get the ability to be taken this way (since it can turn into a H. flamer) so I'd hardly tack that up as a negative.
3) Maybe those "yes's" and "no's" should hint at what models generally should take them like this? Dreadnoughts with an AC arm? sure! tanks with AC's? Why not! Rhinos that you're basically turning into razorbacks, dreads with 2 assault cannons, 2 fists, and a havoc launcher? probably not.
4) you say your last comment like your NOT gonna get those things, and you're NOT one of the most deadly CC legions out there currently. Saying "I don't have Sanguinius yet" is hardly a way to justify silly levels of Assault Cannon spam.

You're right, it's not OP, but it sets a tone of "I know that this is super janky sounding by the rules, but I'm gonna do it anyway because I wanna win!" that makes the game less entertaining for the other player.

He shouldnt really have to justify it beyond, I like assault cannons.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
He shouldnt really have to justify it beyond, I like assault cannons.

normally I'd agree, but the sheer level of silly that you can pull with how FW defined the assault cannon swaps for blood angels just seems to easily abused. About half the time it makes sense (tank weapons, heavy support squads, terminators, etc.) and then you get moments like dreadnoughts with 2 fists and 2 assault cannons, which looking at other rules, seems a lot like an oversight then intentional, much like the hand flamers. I'm seeing a theme here blood angels

 Brennonjw wrote:


from your comments on dreadnoughts, you may be still in a bit of a 40k mind set.

1) melee dreads, while still fragile are more deadly in 30k then 40k (the contemptor's ability to kill off 4 marines, and sweep the now fleeing squad (since fearless is basically non-existant) means they are damn scary if once they get into CC. this applies to box dreads as well, since you can back up their punches with AP: 3 templates and what not.
2) 15 points for 2 more assault cannon shots and 1-2 extra S: 10 AP: 2 attacks is hardly "not much" when the guns only jam on tripple 1's. The twin-linked bolter is where the assault cannons get the ability to be taken this way (since it can turn into a H. flamer) so I'd hardly tack that up as a negative.
3) Maybe those "yes's" and "no's" should hint at what models generally should take them like this? Dreadnoughts with an AC arm? sure! tanks with AC's? Why not! Rhinos that you're basically turning into razorbacks, dreads with 2 assault cannons, 2 fists, and a havoc launcher? probably not.
4) you say your last comment like your NOT gonna get those things, and you're NOT one of the most deadly CC legions out there currently. Saying "I don't have Sanguinius yet" is hardly a way to justify silly levels of Assault Cannon spam.

You're right, it's not OP, but it sets a tone of "I know that this is super janky sounding by the rules, but I'm gonna do it anyway because I wanna win!" that makes the game less entertaining for the other player.

1) In 40k you can fly your melee dreads into hand to hand combat via a storm raven, and a 4 attack dreadnought (with a heavy weapon) is 100pts. Dreads are just fine for hand to hand in 40k, as they are in 30k. You can stomp out marines on the sweep pretty easily with 3 attacks. My point was dedicated hand to hand dreads suffer in both systems, because the trade off of a big gun for +1 attack and a little gun is almost never worth it (especially in 40k where you have to pay extra points for it).
2) I could be off on the math here, but if you've got about a 2% chance of jamming, and you fire both 5 times a game, you're looking at a jam every 4 games. It's not a huge disadvantage, but it will happen, most likely when you're trying to put the last wound on some giant mechanicus robot, so you can't just ignore that as a mitigating factor. Walk into a tournament, you'll jam a gun before the tourney is over. Also it's 1 attack, not 1-2, and since we're talking about such tiny point values, you can't just write off the twin-bolter. It's got a 30% chance of killing a marine at close range, compared to that extra attack's 56%.
3) Still disagree. Terminators carry heavy flamers and assault cannons equally easily. That's a 40k inconsistency that's been around for a long time that I'm sure they have no incentive to address, but the tiny little terminator assault cannon has the exact same stats as the gigantic vehicle assault cannons, and the tiny terminator assault cannon fits in the gun hole of a contemptor PERFECTLY.
4)Dude, it took 5 years of horus heresy rules and 6 books to get even four pages of legion specific rules. When am I going to get sanguinius and some specialized squads? Five more years from now? In 2021? I'm being totally serious here. I'm going to have fun with my assault cannon monster robots, while you guys have fun with with your primarchs and assaults squads with hooks and flamers and cybernetic terminators FOR THE NEXT HALF DECADE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
He shouldnt really have to justify it beyond, I like assault cannons.

I'm someone who built a contemptor death company dread, and contemptor librarian, and a contemptor fragiosos. All very heavily converted. I'm in this for the model coolness, conversion fun, and for making underpowered dreads (hth variants, and leviathan) viable

I don't see the Dreads getting fists and Cannons as not making any sense. Them having Assault Cannons everywhere is alot like the Death Guard having Shredding Flame Templates everywhere, or their being able to with the RoW have Rad Grenades in every squad.

Though rather than limiting where the ACs can be, they should just make them jam easier to bring them more in line with the Gets Hot Flamers.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
He shouldnt really have to justify it beyond, I like assault cannons.

normally I'd agree, but the sheer level of silly that you can pull with how FW defined the assault cannon swaps for blood angels just seems to easily abused. About half the time it makes sense (tank weapons, heavy support squads, terminators, etc.) and then you get moments like dreadnoughts with 2 fists and 2 assault cannons, which looking at other rules, seems a lot like an oversight then intentional, much like the hand flamers. I'm seeing a theme here blood angels

Seriously, compare the dread you just described to a regular contemptor with a kheres and one fist. They're almost identical in terms of battlefield effectiveness. One just looks cooler (imho). If you want to really get OP with this rule, slap one onto a deredeo. For 5 pts your dedicated shooty dread just got a twin linked assault cannon with optional skyfire (I'm going to do this when I get my deredeo). Or slap TWO onto the torso of a Leviathan with twin storm cannon arms. I'm not going to do this as I think the leviathan looks cooler with one close combat claw, but pure shooty would be the most effective variant. Anyway, I think the leviathan is kinda overpriced, so I don't feel bad about this unit getting a kick in the pants.

I see where his problem is coming from, you get 8 shots at S6 AP4 with Rending, which will put wounds on alot. Then you get the extra attacks in CC from the Dread, which is likely to force a Ld test and make the squad fall back.

 Walnuts wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:


from your comments on dreadnoughts, you may be still in a bit of a 40k mind set.

1) melee dreads, while still fragile are more deadly in 30k then 40k (the contemptor's ability to kill off 4 marines, and sweep the now fleeing squad (since fearless is basically non-existant) means they are damn scary if once they get into CC. this applies to box dreads as well, since you can back up their punches with AP: 3 templates and what not.
2) 15 points for 2 more assault cannon shots and 1-2 extra S: 10 AP: 2 attacks is hardly "not much" when the guns only jam on tripple 1's. The twin-linked bolter is where the assault cannons get the ability to be taken this way (since it can turn into a H. flamer) so I'd hardly tack that up as a negative.
3) Maybe those "yes's" and "no's" should hint at what models generally should take them like this? Dreadnoughts with an AC arm? sure! tanks with AC's? Why not! Rhinos that you're basically turning into razorbacks, dreads with 2 assault cannons, 2 fists, and a havoc launcher? probably not.
4) you say your last comment like your NOT gonna get those things, and you're NOT one of the most deadly CC legions out there currently. Saying "I don't have Sanguinius yet" is hardly a way to justify silly levels of Assault Cannon spam.

You're right, it's not OP, but it sets a tone of "I know that this is super janky sounding by the rules, but I'm gonna do it anyway because I wanna win!" that makes the game less entertaining for the other player.

1) In 40k you can fly your melee dreads into hand to hand combat via a storm raven, and a 4 attack dreadnought (with a heavy weapon) is 100pts. Dreads are just fine for hand to hand in 40k, as they are in 30k. You can stomp out marines on the sweep pretty easily with 3 attacks. My point was dedicated hand to hand dreads suffer in both systems, because the trade off of a big gun for +1 attack and a little gun is almost never worth it (especially in 40k where you have to pay extra points for it).
2) I could be off on the math here, but if you've got about a 2% chance of jamming, and you fire both 5 times a game, you're looking at a jam every 4 games. It's not a huge disadvantage, but it will happen, most likely when you're trying to put the last wound on some giant mechanicus robot, so you can't just ignore that as a mitigating factor. Walk into a tournament, you'll jam a gun before the tourney is over. Also it's 1 attack, not 1-2, and since we're talking about such tiny point values, you can't just write off the twin-bolter. It's got a 30% chance of killing a marine at close range, compared to that extra attack's 56%.
3) Still disagree. Terminators carry heavy flamers and assault cannons equally easily. That's a 40k inconsistency that's been around for a long time that I'm sure they have no incentive to address, but the tiny little terminator assault cannon has the exact same stats as the gigantic vehicle assault cannons, and the tiny terminator assault cannon fits in the gun hole of a contemptor PERFECTLY.
4)Dude, it took 5 years of horus heresy rules and 6 books to get even four pages of legion specific rules. When am I going to get sanguinius and some specialized squads? Five more years from now? In 2021? I'm being totally serious here. I'm going to have fun with my assault cannon monster robots, while you guys have fun with with your primarchs and assaults squads with hooks and flamers and cybernetic terminators FOR THE NEXT HALF DECADE.

1) 40k and 30k are different and should remain so. 40k should not affect how a 30k list plays. Also, Dreadnought Drop Pods in 30k make melee Dreadnoughts far more viable.

3) Again, 30k =/= 40k.

4) And? Some Legions STILL don't have rules. Should Thousand Sons have the most broken rules simply because they'll be the last Legion to get rules?
Also, Primarchs and Legion Specifics aren't the be-all-end-all of your list. You can make perfectly decent lists without them, or using your own Rite of Wars, or your own rather good choice of relics and special rules. Dark Angels and White Scars share your pain, and many other Legions have had Primarch rules, and no Primarch model, when others have had both later. It's an evolving ruleset. Give them time, and don't be a dick to your opponents abusing rule mechanics that don't seem well thought out.

If FW errata this and confirm this "oversight", I'll accept it. But until I see that, I'll keep seeing it as that - an oversight.

 Walnuts wrote:

4)Dude, it took 5 years of horus heresy rules and 6 books to get even four pages of legion specific rules. When am I going to get sanguinius and some specialized squads? Five more years from now? In 2021? I'm being totally serious here. I'm going to have fun with my assault cannon monster robots, while you guys have fun with with your primarchs and assaults squads with hooks and flamers and cybernetic terminators FOR THE NEXT HALF DECADE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
He shouldnt really have to justify it beyond, I like assault cannons.

I'm someone who built a contemptor death company dread, and contemptor librarian, and a contemptor fragiosos. All very heavily converted. I'm in this for the model coolness, conversion fun, and for making underpowered dreads (hth variants, and leviathan) viable

At least you have rules (an amazing ones at that). Thousand Sons have been waiting just as long, and are still waiting for anything other then some shoulder pads, or our soon-to-be-released contemptor. Sanguinius will probably be the book right after prospero (so book 8) which will probably be the Blood Angels big fight with the daemons, so quit whining about how bad you have it when you are alongside ANOTHER 5 or so legions that are without characters, ESPECIALLY when 2 of those legions don't even have rules, and 1 of THOSE legions doesn't even have shoulder pads yet.

Additionally, I'd hardly call the Leviathan non-viable unless you live to min-max in a game that doesn't need min-maxed.

Don't get me wrong, I like how the AC dread looks, but it's something that doesn't seem to fit: it's just to broad and inclusive of an upgrade that it seems like an oversight. Also, the base problem with your combi-bolter argument is that the AC is an upgrade to said combi-bolter, and 9 times out of 10, an AC will win out against a Combi-bolter.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:

1) 40k and 30k are different and should remain so. 40k should not affect how a 30k list plays. Also, Dreadnought Drop Pods in 30k make melee Dreadnoughts far more viable.

Dreadnought drop pods exist in 40k, and I said dreads are effective in melee in both systems, but dedicated melee dreads are sub-optimal in both systems.


3) Again, 30k =/= 40k.

But your whole argument was that this must be an oversight because there's no way to model it. There is. Terminator assault cannons, which, now exist in 30k as well as 40k. Deal with it.

4) And? Some Legions STILL don't have rules. Should Thousand Sons have the most broken rules simply because they'll be the last Legion to get rules?
Also, Primarchs and Legion Specifics aren't the be-all-end-all of your list. You can make perfectly decent lists without them, or using your own Rite of Wars, or your own rather good choice of relics and special rules. Dark Angels and White Scars share your pain, and many other Legions have had Primarch rules, and no Primarch model, when others have had both later. It's an evolving ruleset. Give them time, and don't be a dick to your opponents abusing rule mechanics that don't seem well thought out.

If FW errata this and confirm this "oversight", I'll accept it. But until I see that, I'll keep seeing it as that - an oversight.

I still don't see these rules as being OP compared to some things other legions can pull. Maybe I'll feel differently after a few dozen games. Until then I'm rolling with it. Must be nice to cherry pick rules just because you don't like them. Hey man, I think the entire eldar codex is an "oversight."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brennonjw wrote:


At least you have rules (an amazing ones at that). Thousand Sons have been waiting just as long, and are still waiting for anything other then some shoulder pads, or our soon-to-be-released contemptor. Sanguinius will probably be the book right after prospero (so book 8) which will probably be the Blood Angels big fight with the daemons, so quit whining about how bad you have it when you are alongside ANOTHER 5 or so legions that are without characters, ESPECIALLY when 2 of those legions don't even have rules, and 1 of THOSE legions doesn't even have shoulder pads yet.

Additionally, I'd hardly call the Leviathan non-viable unless you live to min-max in a game that doesn't need min-maxed.

Don't get me wrong, I like how the AC dread looks, but it's something that doesn't seem to fit: it's just to broad and inclusive of an upgrade that it seems like an oversight. Also, the base problem with your combi-bolter argument is that the AC is an upgrade to said combi-bolter, and 9 times out of 10, an AC will win out against a Combi-bolter.

No, it's fine, I'm not whining, I like my rules and I'm happy they're here. If I was going to whine I'd just focus on blood angel 40k rules, which, don't even get me started
And yeah, it's kind of bogus that other legions have to wait as long as they do for their rules, when, gak man, just put out a pdf to get them by until the book comes out, come on! Waiting for rules for your models shouldn't be something that takes a decade.

And woof, I'm glad you're optimistic about the leviathan, but there's no way I'd take a 300 pt model that can be one shotted in a system full of D weapons. Shoot, you can literally get a knight for cheaper than the leviathan. A knight!

But the combi bolter matters, if we're talking about a tiny amount of points here, and we are, the normal kheres contemptor vs the blood angel ac spam contemptor, you're paying 15 extra points, for an extra attack, two extra assault cannon shots, one less combi bolter (with the one less upgrade option) and a jam chance. Factor in everything. This is a good upgrade, but hardly an OP upgrade, and as I mentioned, considering the twin hand to hand weapon contemptor is normally a super underwhelming option, I'm okay with it.

 Walnuts wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
1) 40k and 30k are different and should remain so. 40k should not affect how a 30k list plays. Also, Dreadnought Drop Pods in 30k make melee Dreadnoughts far more viable.

Dreadnought drop pods exist in 40k, and I said dreads are effective in melee in both systems, but dedicated melee dreads are sub-optimal in both systems.


3) Again, 30k =/= 40k.

But your whole argument was that this must be an oversight because there's no way to model it. There is. Terminator assault cannons, which, now exist in 30k as well as 40k. Deal with it.

4) And? Some Legions STILL don't have rules. Should Thousand Sons have the most broken rules simply because they'll be the last Legion to get rules?
Also, Primarchs and Legion Specifics aren't the be-all-end-all of your list. You can make perfectly decent lists without them, or using your own Rite of Wars, or your own rather good choice of relics and special rules. Dark Angels and White Scars share your pain, and many other Legions have had Primarch rules, and no Primarch model, when others have had both later. It's an evolving ruleset. Give them time, and don't be a dick to your opponents abusing rule mechanics that don't seem well thought out.

If FW errata this and confirm this "oversight", I'll accept it. But until I see that, I'll keep seeing it as that - an oversight.

I still don't see these rules as being OP compared to some things other legions can pull. Maybe I'll feel differently after a few dozen games. Until then I'm rolling with it. Must be nice to cherry pick rules just because you don't like them. Hey man, I think the entire eldar codex is an "oversight."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The assault cannon is better in nearly every way. Better S, better AP, better rate of fire, Rending. The only real issue is a rather small chance to jam, but that happens so rarely it will hardly ever not justify not bringing one. And when you can have both the shooting prowess of twin assault cannons and dual melee potential, you'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. The only issue for me is if that was FW's intention. If so, feel free to stick assault cannons on everything and go nuts!

Dude, how do you not get this, yes, obviously an assault cannon is better than a combi-bolter, in every circumstance. You're also paying 15 points for it. I'm comparing the ENTIRE model, not just one gun. One has a kheres, a melee weapon, and a twin bolter. The other has two assault cannons, and two melee weapons.

Comparing a Kheres arm to a regular assault cannon melee arm, both cost the same amount of points, one is better at shooting, one is better in hand to hand. Seems okay to me.

Having one melee arm gives you a huge jump in melee prowess, having two just makes you go from 3 attacks to 4, which is a slight upgrade. That's why a twin assault cannon twin hand to hand weapon arm dread is baaarely better than a kheres assault cannon arm normal melee arm dread. It mostly just looks cool.

 Walnuts wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The assault cannon is better in nearly every way. Better S, better AP, better rate of fire, Rending. The only real issue is a rather small chance to jam, but that happens so rarely it will hardly ever not justify not bringing one. And when you can have both the shooting prowess of twin assault cannons and dual melee potential, you'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. The only issue for me is if that was FW's intention. If so, feel free to stick assault cannons on everything and go nuts!

Dude, how do you not get this, yes, obviously an assault cannon is better than a combi-bolter, in every circumstance. You're also paying 15 points for it. I'm comparing the ENTIRE model, not just one gun. One has a kheres, a melee weapon, and a twin bolter. The other has two assault cannons, and two melee weapons.

Comparing a Kheres arm to a regular assault cannon melee arm, both cost the same amount of points, one is better at shooting, one is better in hand to hand. Seems okay to me.

You can also upgrade the shooting one to have a regular Assault Cannon

 Walnuts wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The assault cannon is better in nearly every way. Better S, better AP, better rate of fire, Rending. The only real issue is a rather small chance to jam, but that happens so rarely it will hardly ever not justify not bringing one. And when you can have both the shooting prowess of twin assault cannons and dual melee potential, you'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. The only issue for me is if that was FW's intention. If so, feel free to stick assault cannons on everything and go nuts!

Dude, how do you not get this, yes, obviously an assault cannon is better than a combi-bolter, in every circumstance. You're also paying 15 points for it. I'm comparing the ENTIRE model, not just one gun. One has a kheres, a melee weapon, and a twin bolter. The other has two assault cannons, and two melee weapons.

Comparing a Kheres arm to a regular assault cannon melee arm, both cost the same amount of points, one is better at shooting, one is better in hand to hand. Seems okay to me.

Do forgive me, I'm not seeing your point at all. Disregard what I've just said.

(That wasn't meant aggressively, I think I've just lost your point)

 Walnuts wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The assault cannon is better in nearly every way. Better S, better AP, better rate of fire, Rending. The only real issue is a rather small chance to jam, but that happens so rarely it will hardly ever not justify not bringing one. And when you can have both the shooting prowess of twin assault cannons and dual melee potential, you'd be foolish not to take advantage of it. The only issue for me is if that was FW's intention. If so, feel free to stick assault cannons on everything and go nuts!

Dude, how do you not get this, yes, obviously an assault cannon is better than a combi-bolter, in every circumstance. You're also paying 15 points for it. I'm comparing the ENTIRE model, not just one gun. One has a kheres, a melee weapon, and a twin bolter. The other has two assault cannons, and two melee weapons.

Comparing a Kheres arm to a regular assault cannon melee arm, both cost the same amount of points, one is better at shooting, one is better in hand to hand. Seems okay to me.

Having one melee arm gives you a huge jump in melee prowess, having two just makes you go from 3 attacks to 4, which is a slight upgrade. That's why a twin assault cannon twin hand to hand weapon arm dread is baaarely better than a kheres assault cannon arm normal melee arm dread. It mostly just looks cool.

kheres/fist gives you (for 15 points less) 3 attacks (4 on the charge) and 6 shots.
AC+fists gives your (for 15 points more) 4 attacks (5 on the charge) and 8 shots.

That DOES add up a lot more then you're giving it credit for. 2 shots and an additional S: 10 AP: 2 hit is a bit more then "baaarely better" It gives the dread more versitility overall for a negligible amount of points. Yes, it looks cool. No, it's not a "slight upgrade". let's compare full talons

3 kheres/fists = 18 shots, 9 attacks.
3 ac+fists = 24! shots, 12 attacks.

when your hitting on 2's that really does add up, even if you want to say that it doesn't. ADDITIONALLY, by the time you're at 3 dreads, you have essentially another dreadnoughts worth of firepower, for 45 points.