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Alright alright, point taken, it's pretty damn good, at least as far as a jack of all trades unit goes (the twin kheres mortis is prob still the best contemptor).
Whatever, blood angels have been so bad in 40k for so long lemme have my fun here!

 Walnuts wrote:
Alright alright, point taken, it's pretty damn good, at least as far as a jack of all trades unit goes (the twin kheres mortis is prob still the best contemptor).
Whatever, blood angels have been so bad in 40k for so long lemme have my fun here!

Yes, because that makes sense look at it this way: 30k functions better when you play for fluff rather then cheese.

Dude, I've said a bunch of times, I think it's a good unit, not a broken unit, and I'm building it mostly for the cool model factor since I LOVE converting contemptors.

I already have a contemptor mortis with twin kheres and a havoc launcher that I'm sure will perform much better than any assault cannon / claw contemptors I build in the future, and that's a model that any legion can use. This is in effect an upgrade on a sub-par unit that does make it better than other legions, for sure, but still not crazy good compared to other units that other legions get.

A twin hand to hand contemptor is something I'd NEVER take without an upgrade option like this, I'd just stick to one heavy gun and one claw, or go mortis pattern. With this rule I can actually use twin hand to hand weapon dreads without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the knee, which for blood angels, is very fluffy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The twin hand to hand dreads being fluffy, not the shooting myself in the knee part, though that's kinda fluffy for blood angels too, tbh.

I get all of that, but I'm telling you: you still seem to have that 40k "sub optimal/ bring only the best" mind set of 40k which doesn't function all to well/fun in 30k.

I know, I know, and it does come in part from having played such a sub par army for the last half decade. Like, 2011-2014 was make the cheesiest blood angels 40k list you possibly can, and then fight for your life every single round of every tournament. And those were the good days!
And don't get me wrong, I get casual play. I in the same building as a guy who plays orks, and a guy who plays chaos marines. I use the normal current horrible 40k blood angels rules when we fight, and none of us use fliers or super heavies. It keeps things even and fun.
When I'm playing in a tournament against randos though, I have no problem with playing to win, because again, I feel that's the point of a strategy game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just so you don't think I'm understating how much I love converting contemptors, here's a fragioso, librarian, and death company contemptor i converted:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I get all of that, but I'm telling you: you still seem to have that 40k "sub optimal/ bring only the best" mind set of 40k which doesn't function all to well/fun in 30k.

To an extent you advertise bring only the best by telling people they shouldnt focus on the PotL lists (which they shouldn't us as and end all and Im not saying you are wrong for telling them to look past it), and that Veteran Squads are 'subpar' and they should look at the excellent Tac Squads. It might be a slightly different degree to his wanting Assault Cannons on his CC Dread, but its still inspirit "bring the best". Which you see other people consistently telling people to bring Spartans.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I get all of that, but I'm telling you: you still seem to have that 40k "sub optimal/ bring only the best" mind set of 40k which doesn't function all to well/fun in 30k.

To an extent you advertise bring only the best by telling people they shouldnt focus on the PotL lists (which they shouldn't us as and end all and Im not saying you are wrong for telling them to look past it), and that Veteran Squads are 'subpar' and they should look at the excellent Tac Squads. It might be a slightly different degree to his wanting Assault Cannons on his CC Dread, but its still inspirit "bring the best". Which you see other people consistently telling people to bring Spartans.

I see your point, but to be truthful, my main reason for pushing people away from the PotL list not because it's mediocre (which it is ), but because it 1) seemingly encourages the 40k style of "bring minimal troops, spam the large stuff", and 2) encouraging people to not play a PotL list pushes them towards looking at a lot of the stuff they would skip in favor of "basic 10-man tactical squads + sicarians and the like" and I suppose this mind set of mine carries over to this situation. I have no issue with vet. tactical squads when they have a use and fit in a list. Just like I don't have a problem with Assault cannons on terminators, speeders, tanks and as a dreadnought arm (or even used sparingly as the fist weapon), it's when you get to the point of bringing as many as you can because it's the "strongest thing to do" where I get a bit iffy on the subject.


to OP: I like the dreads! I hope I didn't come off as anti dread through this forum (I happen to own and field way to many of the things )

 Brennonjw wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
I get all of that, but I'm telling you: you still seem to have that 40k "sub optimal/ bring only the best" mind set of 40k which doesn't function all to well/fun in 30k.

To an extent you advertise bring only the best by telling people they shouldnt focus on the PotL lists (which they shouldn't us as and end all and Im not saying you are wrong for telling them to look past it), and that Veteran Squads are 'subpar' and they should look at the excellent Tac Squads. It might be a slightly different degree to his wanting Assault Cannons on his CC Dread, but its still inspirit "bring the best". Which you see other people consistently telling people to bring Spartans.

I see your point, but to be truthful, my main reason for pushing people away from the PotL list not because it's mediocre (which it is ), but because it 1) seemingly encourages the 40k style of "bring minimal troops, spam the large stuff", and 2) encouraging people to not play a PotL list pushes them towards looking at a lot of the stuff they would skip in favor of "basic 10-man tactical squads + sicarians and the like" and I suppose this mind set of mine carries over to this situation. I have no issue with vet. tactical squads when they have a use and fit in a list. Just like I don't have a problem with Assault cannons on terminators, speeders, tanks and as a dreadnought arm (or even used sparingly as the fist weapon), it's when you get to the point of bringing as many as you can because it's the "strongest thing to do" where I get a bit iffy on the subject.


to OP: I like the dreads! I hope I didn't come off as anti dread through this forum (I happen to own and field way to many of the things )

Completely understandable.

To hijack a little bit, you might be pleased to know I am even looking at doing away with my original plan of Delegatus and Chosen Warriors, since I picked up a second BaC and am gonna make those 30 guys into 2 15 Man Tac Squads.

So I will have 2 Terminator Squads of unknown config, 2 Vet Tacs, 2 Tacs and then the last ten guys I have no idea what to do with. Maybe a HWS or a TSS.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:


to OP: I like the dreads! I hope I didn't come off as anti dread through this forum (I happen to own and field way to many of the things )

Thanks! Yeah, I've been running dreads on the reg since the dawn of 3rd edition, so at this point, when they work, it's just like, praise Allah.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

EDIT - And yeah - I think the rule is oversight. The way the dreadnought is modelled and that FW haven't really got any way to represent it pretty much says it in my mind.

I know I'm sort of resurrecting a dead thread here, but I just built this, sooooo

I haven't read the whole thread but you CANNOT use hand flamer with the Morita. FW answered this in a email saying you can't since hand framers DO NOT "ROLL" to hit.

Who doesnt want a Leviathan with Drill,Claw,Phosphex,2 meltaguns AND 2 Assault cannons?

commander dante wrote:
Who doesnt want a Leviathan with Drill,Claw,Phosphex,2 meltaguns AND 2 Assault cannons?

I'm going with two assault cannons and the storm cannon personally. 14 shots at 24" range that either have rending or sunder plus, considering it has 4 attacks, I feel like the extra close combat weapon is sorta overkill. Either way, cannot WAIT to get one

You lose an attack for each melee weapon you remove, if they haven't changed anything when transitioning from the online rules to the rules in book 6

Ah! Bah! You're right! Ah well, I still can't pass up that much dakka

Don't bother converting twin linked heavy flamers guys, they can't be upgraded, I asked my mate, who WROTE the rule and he states that it is indeed and over sight and twin linked heavy flamers won't be upgradable, he/they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads and legions Astartes blood angels when they get around to the next faq.

 Formosa wrote:
Don't bother converting twin linked heavy flamers guys, they can't be upgraded, I asked my mate, who WROTE the rule and he states that it is indeed and over sight and twin linked heavy flamers won't be upgradable, he/they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads and legions Astartes blood angels when they get around to the next faq.

Wait, can you be a little more specific here, because you just told me they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads, while (by defacto) telling me that I can't do it on a deredeo dread. You also mentioned it's limited to legion astartes blood angels, which already clearly is.

 Walnuts wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Don't bother converting twin linked heavy flamers guys, they can't be upgraded, I asked my mate, who WROTE the rule and he states that it is indeed and over sight and twin linked heavy flamers won't be upgradable, he/they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads and legions Astartes blood angels when they get around to the next faq.

Wait, can you be a little more specific here, because you just told me they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads, while (by defacto) telling me that I can't do it on a deredeo dread. You also mentioned it's limited to legion astartes blood angels, which already clearly is.

Heavy flamers, twin linked heavy flamers I was told were NOT intended to be upgraded, and as far as I'm aware, doredo dreads don't get twin linked heavy flamers as an option anyway, and for clarity, they intend it to be ONLY for dreads, legions Astartes blood angels, not the myriad vehicles such as preds.

 Formosa wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Don't bother converting twin linked heavy flamers guys, they can't be upgraded, I asked my mate, who WROTE the rule and he states that it is indeed and over sight and twin linked heavy flamers won't be upgradable, he/they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads and legions Astartes blood angels when they get around to the next faq.

Wait, can you be a little more specific here, because you just told me they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads, while (by defacto) telling me that I can't do it on a deredeo dread. You also mentioned it's limited to legion astartes blood angels, which already clearly is.

Heavy flamers, twin linked heavy flamers I was told were NOT intended to be upgraded, and as far as I'm aware, doredo dreads don't get twin linked heavy flamers as an option anyway, and for clarity, they intend it to be ONLY for dreads, legions Astartes blood angels, not the myriad vehicles such as preds.

Excpet, of course, the specific allowance to take a twin-linked one on a Pred as the main gun

I believe it will specify which units which can/can't take it in a FAQ or future publication.

But I would trust Formosa. He is legit.

TBH makes sense.
I would never have assumed it applied to twin linked heavy flamers unless strictly specified.

 Formosa wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Don't bother converting twin linked heavy flamers guys, they can't be upgraded, I asked my mate, who WROTE the rule and he states that it is indeed and over sight and twin linked heavy flamers won't be upgradable, he/they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads and legions Astartes blood angels when they get around to the next faq.

Wait, can you be a little more specific here, because you just told me they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads, while (by defacto) telling me that I can't do it on a deredeo dread. You also mentioned it's limited to legion astartes blood angels, which already clearly is.

Heavy flamers, twin linked heavy flamers I was told were NOT intended to be upgraded, and as far as I'm aware, doredo dreads don't get twin linked heavy flamers as an option anyway, and for clarity, they intend it to be ONLY for dreads, legions Astartes blood angels, not the myriad vehicles such as preds.

That would actually he hilarious if that was the case, since I got into an argument with someone in another thread who was insisting they they'd FAQ it out just for dreadnoughts, as they "must" have just meant it for tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Don't bother converting twin linked heavy flamers guys, they can't be upgraded, I asked my mate, who WROTE the rule and he states that it is indeed and over sight and twin linked heavy flamers won't be upgradable, he/they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads and legions Astartes blood angels when they get around to the next faq.

Wait, can you be a little more specific here, because you just told me they intend to limit the upgrade to dreads, while (by defacto) telling me that I can't do it on a deredeo dread. You also mentioned it's limited to legion astartes blood angels, which already clearly is.

Heavy flamers, twin linked heavy flamers I was told were NOT intended to be upgraded, and as far as I'm aware, doredo dreads don't get twin linked heavy flamers as an option anyway, and for clarity, they intend it to be ONLY for dreads, legions Astartes blood angels, not the myriad vehicles such as preds.

Oh, and deredeos def get twin linked heavy flamers on their torso.

So is it a solid no on the handflamers? BA pseudo-death company moritats look baws with two handflamers. If not for the cheesiness of the rules I would certainly be using one.

 darkjedi203 wrote:
So is it a solid no on the handflamers? BA pseudo-death company moritats look baws with two handflamers. If not for the cheesiness of the rules I would certainly be using one.

well, in diggin there's a few problems that arise

1) it will most likely get changed in the future
2) Technically it doesn't roll to hit, so wouldn't it not function since you need to roll to hit to activate the efect?
3) Also, since you never roll, you can never miss, which means you have an infinite wound pool, but no way to access it under the moritat's rules UNLESS it makes mention that you can opt to stop shooting, and if that's the case, it's no longer an infinite wound pool.

these last two were brought up by some people locally, but I've never dug to deeply into.

 Brennonjw wrote:
I get all of that, but I'm telling you: you still seem to have that 40k "sub optimal/ bring only the best" mind set of 40k which doesn't function all to well/fun in 30k.

It works just fine in 30k. It just doesn't work very well with people who declare that having fun with the strategy and list-construction elements of 30k are Bad People.

If I remember the wording right, I do not think hand flamers will work with chain fire. Correct me if I am wrong but for every hit with chain fire you get to re-roll hits. A flamer doesn't roll for hits thus you get your two initial shots and it ends as you don't pick up dice to roll with them.

The reason FW hasn't said anything because to their mind, the answer is already there.

Col. Dash wrote:
If I remember the wording right, I do not think hand flamers will work with chain fire. Correct me if I am wrong but for every hit with chain fire you get to re-roll hits. A flamer doesn't roll for hits thus you get your two initial shots and it ends as you don't pick up dice to roll with them.

The reason FW hasn't said anything because to their mind, the answer is already there.

Nope. Unless they changed the wording in a later book, which is possible, the way book 1 puts it, when shooting, for every hit, make an extra shooting attack. Rolling is never mentioned.

It's cool though, I believe everyone here that it's going to get FAQed. 30k is a fun balanced game, as opposed to 40k which is neither of those things, so I'm happy to not try and break the game. Besides, my blood angels are 3-0 so I'm doing just fine without resorting to cheese tactics

 Walnuts wrote:
Yo, 30k is still a strategy game with rules, not a bang green plastic soldiers together and go *pew pew* like I'm five.
I live in an apartment building with a dude who plays orks, and a dude who plays chaos marines, and I play blood angels, so we have three garbage armies and we play fun casual games all the time, but when I'm going into public, to some gaming store, to play random nerds in a tournament that probably also has a prize, I'm going to play to win, because, duh, that's the point.

You will find even "tournaments" of 30K games have a strong narrative bend to them. You will be ostracized if you roll in as TFG. It's also a stretch to call a clearly unintended and perhaps not even possible rules combination that erases everything from the table, "strategy".

The baby Legion rules are kind of wonky right now, with BA basically amounting to "assault cannons on everything!". I would almost be tempted to just run them with Blackshield rules of choice for now, until they hammer them down and give them their unique units (and hopefully buff assault marines in the next Legion book reprint).

HandofMars wrote:

 Walnuts wrote:
Yo, 30k is still a strategy game with rules, not a bang green plastic soldiers together and go *pew pew* like I'm five.
I live in an apartment building with a dude who plays orks, and a dude who plays chaos marines, and I play blood angels, so we have three garbage armies and we play fun casual games all the time, but when I'm going into public, to some gaming store, to play random nerds in a tournament that probably also has a prize, I'm going to play to win, because, duh, that's the point.

You will find even "tournaments" of 30K games have a strong narrative bend to them. You will be ostracized if you roll in as TFG. It's also a stretch to call a clearly unintended and perhaps not even possible rules combination that erases everything from the table, "strategy".

The baby Legion rules are kind of wonky right now, with BA basically amounting to "assault cannons on everything!". I would almost be tempted to just run them with Blackshield rules of choice for now, until they hammer them down and give them their unique units (and hopefully buff assault marines in the next Legion book reprint).

And I'm not TFG. I've been playing blood angels with lots of dreadnoughts since the 90s. I picked 'em up because I thought they looked cool then stuck with 'em because I fell in love with the fluff. I have zero interest in jumping ship and going iron warriors phosphex mortar spam because it looks good on paper, BUT, I have every interest in getting the most out of the blood angel models I own and want to build. That's part of the fun of the hobby for me. Tactics and all that.

And what do you mean with the second thing you said? You mean run blood angels as a 'counts as' blackshields force? That's a touch reactionary if that's your concern. I think they're a solid, powerful army with the rules as listed. I'm three games in at 2k points each vs an iron hands artillery spam / mechanicum robot death star, a word bearers gal vorbak / tank spam list, and a luna wolves dreadclaw dop pod spam list with a solid gun line. I've used 20 assault marines in each game and won each game. The rules as is perform just fine, but that stated, I'm totally looking forward to an assault squad point drop so it's not frigging impossible for me to field two squads of em, and the special units and primarchs, obvs

Not reactionary, I'm just saying the Blackshield rules give you a more solid foundation to work from if you want some uniqueness to your units not provided by the base Legion unit selection. And I commend your generalship, because all of the lists you mentioned are on the more potent side of 30K armies. It just speaks further to the parity in the game that the weakest Legion rules-wise can still hang with the strongest. Of course there's always Matrix of Ruin, but that's like letting Alpharius use Onslaught, so ...

20-man assault squads can be very good, but as you pointed out, their cost is ridiculous and frequency eclipses that of even decked out specialist jump units like Dark Furies. I think breachers could do with a point decrease too, or they should give them free melta-bombs or something since now those aren't the bee's knees anymore.

On that note, the Legion book is now listed as "no longer available", so I think we can expect a new one very soon. What's the next event after Warhammer Fest?