Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Traditio wrote:

EnTyme wrote:I consider the base to be part of the model.

Fair enough.

For what it's worth, I'm fine with the rule as is (it limits min-maxing/power-gaming).

Personally, I wish templates had a similar rule.

As it stands, we get nonsense. "Oh. You're targeting THIS unit but only aiming at 1 guy...and conveniently hitting 9 guys in that other unit? Oh. Ok."

Gee, it's almost like different templates have different shapes.

Give them the ability to snap fire and shoot at flying vehicles and I think they would be fine - those are the things holding them back.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Give them the ability to snap fire and shoot at flying vehicles and I think they would be fine - those are the things holding them back.

Why should you be able to throw a frag grenade at a flying vehicle?

Small blasts have always been as good for me as the opponent is bad at the game...

2" coherency means even if you are shooting at a unit of 20 ork boyz, you should only hit 3.

Blasts are best when you can get multiple barrage going (esp with some sort of reroll), because then you can place them how you want to get more hits.

Blasts are difficult to balance out because they could become too good very, very easily.

Play against wyverns/quad mortars/warp hunters and tell me small blasts aren't good!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, good ways to get the most out of your blasts:

Bait folks into combats that will leave them bunched, tank shock them, blow up their transports, etc. There are ways to make even small blasts incredibly efficient.

Traditio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Give them the ability to snap fire and shoot at flying vehicles and I think they would be fine - those are the things holding them back.

Why should you be able to throw a frag grenade at a flying vehicle?

Chuck a grenade into the engine

As someone who is all-to-often under the receiving end of a prescience'ed thunderfire cannon battery -- I'll go with "no" on that one.

CrownAxe wrote:Chuck a grenade into the engine

The engine of an airplane? That's way overhead, high up in the sky?

How far do you think somebody can throw?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:
As someone who is all-to-often under the receiving end of a prescience'ed thunderfire cannon battery -- I'll go with "no" on that one.

Agreed. Ditto for Imperial Guard, Necrons, Chaos Space Marines and other people who seem to love pie plates.

Who said the flyer was that up in the sky? This is combat, not a passenger ship

Small blasts are in that weird spot where they're really good in the form of vehicle hunting weapons. I'd rather have a Str 10 small blast than a one-shot weapon. Especially if the model firing only has BS 3 or lower.

Traditio wrote:
The engine of an airplane? That's way overhead, high up in the sky?

You can throw a krak grenade at it, so it's pretty moot to say you can't throw a frag...

Tetsu0 wrote:I just want to implore you to stop propagating this idea. Because if we started toning down codexes now, the result would be the further nerfing of codexes next in line for an update or likely just a continuation of their toned down power levels with some updates. While the more recently released top tier codexes get to enjoy a even longer reign of dominance until they are updated again. We can't flip the direction of the powerlevel change in the middle of updating all the armies.

I disagree. GW could start by issuing erratta to the currently OP codices.

We need less obsolete things and non-viable options filling up this game, small blasts and blasts in general I see as a problem because I avoid them like the plague. Stuff like special pistol upgrades, pretty much never being worth their points. I'm sure I could think of more stuff people just never use and could be fixed so that people would consider using them.

Plasma cannons are fantastic vs. wraithguard and terminators.

And light vehicles.

Plasma cannons are not that good regardless of target. And terminators are wealmk to a ton of weapons.

GW is not nerfing the most recent releases. That is not happening.

Martel732 wrote:
GW is not nerfing the most recent releases. That is not happening.

Independently of what GW will or won't do, you seem personally opposed to the idea of nerfs.

Why?

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
GW is not nerfing the most recent releases. That is not happening.

Independently of what GW will or won't do, you seem personally opposed to the idea of nerfs.

Why?

It's not personal. Your suggestion flies the face of everything gw has done since 3rd. If we're going with hypotheticals, i'd settle for nothing less than a rewrite.

Martel732 wrote:It's not personal. Your suggestion flies the face of everything gw has done since 3rd.

That is a fair point. That said, GW has opened a facebook page and asked for FAQs.

Maybe if everyone demands nerfs rather than buffs to balance the game, GW will listen at some point.

Say it with me now:

"Enough is ENOUGH! I am TIRED of this mother fething power creep in this mother fething game!"

That's not going to happen either. Nine gamers in room have twelve opinions.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not going to happen either. Nine gamers in room have twelve opinions.

But it's in the form of an adapted Samuel L. Jackson quote!

Surely, it will catch on!

The simplest fix at this point to make everyone able to compete with Eldar. A better fix is to rewrite from the ground up.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The engine of an airplane? That's way overhead, high up in the sky?

You can throw a krak grenade at it, so it's pretty moot to say you can't throw a frag...

Excellent response - I was going to say the same thing.

Martel732 wrote:
The simplest fix at this point to make everyone able to compete with Eldar. A better fix is to rewrite from the ground up.

I'm all for either one of these. The general power level of units in the game doesn't even matter to me.

Besides the fact that the real concern should be getting all the codexes more balanced. I'm curious though what is the perceived negative consequence of the power level being higher? By power level I'm assuming we are referring to the offensive capabilities in relation to surviving ability? All I foresee are games going by faster, and people being tabled more often. I guess this potentially could contribute to people playing bigger games, but I just see the potential benefit of cutting down game length.

 Vankraken wrote:
Small blasts aren't too great for trying to kill a well formed enemy deployment but it really shines when the battle is unfolding and you have blobs of units from consolidating out of close combats, terrain, vehicle explosions, etc that cause units to end up lumped together. As the game goes on movements tend to get more sloppy so its easier to find opportunities to hit multiple units.

This plus barrage sniping are the two leading candidates in my mind for how they can be useful. These are tactical applications instead of the Mathhammer approach.

That being said the ABG Beasthunter shell being a small blast is just silly since it's intended targets all come on bases the size of the template and so it will almost never make use of the blast effect. Forgeworld is just not good a rules design.

I'd say let players place their blast markers anywhere that is in range, rather than directly on a model. It's way more realistic, as you'd be aiming for the ground if anything, not the guy, when firing something like a grenade launcher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Who said the flyer was that up in the sky? This is combat, not a passenger ship

Right. As if a flying vehicle would be so low to the ground that you can throw gak at it.

As you said, "this Is combat." You don't have to be that smart to realize you shouldn't be able to scrape the fething ground when you're flying.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The engine of an airplane? That's way overhead, high up in the sky?

You can throw a krak grenade at it, so it's pretty moot to say you can't throw a frag...

Excellent response - I was going to say the same thing.

And here too. Grenades are already being thrown at flyers - just not frags.

Traditio wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Give them the ability to snap fire and shoot at flying vehicles and I think they would be fine - those are the things holding them back.

Why should you be able to throw a frag grenade at a flying vehicle?

I don't know. Why don't you go ask the people who designed flak cannons?