Star Wars : Rogue One - now in theaters - pg 12 (spoilers)

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**Manchu**

I agree with all of those points Scrabb. The mind monster was really out of place and it was almost like they got drunk and high, came up with that and shot it, and then their hangover was so bad they forgot it was in the movie. But eh feth it, right? Just leave it in.

**d-usa**

The fleet wasn't annihilated. The fleet retreated after their only objective was complete, get the Death Star plans.

Half the rebel fleet already made the jump when Darth Vader suddenly appears, causing some of the retreating rebels to run into his ship.

The main rebel ship was disabled, that's the main rebel casualty that was shown. And they were already working on downloading the plans into portable storage to transport it on the smaller ship by the time Vader boarded.

The "fleet" Vader managed to "annihilate" were leftover fighters that didn't make the jump and one disabled capital ship.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

d-usa wrote:
The fleet wasn't annihilated. The fleet retreated after their only objective was complete, get the Death Star plans.

Half the rebel fleet already made the jump when Darth Vader suddenly appears, causing some of the retreating rebels to run into his ship.

The main rebel ship was disabled, that's the main rebel casualty that was shown. And they were already working on downloading the plans into portable storage to transport it on the smaller ship by the time Vader boarded.

The "fleet" Vader managed to "annihilate" were leftover fighters that didn't make the jump and one disabled capital ship.

Only like 3 rebel ships managed to jump out before Vader showed up. Besides even if that Rebel Fleet got annihilated, there are presumably still "Fleets" that weren't there.

**Manchu**

Good point about the Rebel Fleet's partial escape. With that in mind, we have to conclude that the Rebel fleet was simply more powerful than the Imperial forces guarding one of the most secure installations in the Empire.

**Xenomancers**

Manchu wrote:
Good point about the Rebel Fleet's partial escape. With that in mind, we have to conclude that the Rebel fleet was simply more powerful than the Imperial forces guarding one of the most secure installations in the Empire.

perhaps they had a larger force there that was rerouted to deal with an uprising elsewhere. They did just destroy a city with the death-star. Word travels fast in hyperspace.

You know the thing that really bothered me - was that the Rebel council actually cared about anything Jyn had to say. She is a nobody. She wouldn't be giving speeches to the head officials in the alliance.

**Manchu**

Good point. But at least she wasn't able to convince them, which was a bit more realistic than her haranguing them. Although that makes you wonder what the point of the scene actually was. Her speech changed no one's mind, right? Or was Raddus on the fence beforehand?

That whole scene was really troubling. It seems like the majority of the Alliance's leadership was against military action (at least 3 of 5 against). But the Rebel military disregarded their decision. The resulting operation was poorly coordinated (somehow a big plot driver in the third act was radioing the fleet to do what it was already doing?) but still completely successful. I thought the key objection against the Empire was oppression of the democratic system through military force. But whatever.

**Compel**

I think Raddus was always wanting to attack, even before the speech. He just needed an excuse and opportunity to do so. I think what Jyn's speech did do was provide the fire to get things going. - Ultimately, Mon Mothma and Organa agreed with her, plus they did have some corroborating evidence, so they knew she wasn't talking complete tosh, they just didn't know how much they could believe.

**Manchu**

I counted Mon Mothma and Bail Organa as for military action, even though I'm not sure they explicitly said so. But the Council definitely rejected taking military action so Raddus was certainly acting against orders barring some off-screen change of policy.

**Alpharius**

Saw it and enjoyed it, but that I'd like it more.

This:

Manchu wrote:

And that sums up R1 - a really cool-looking movie that doesn't quite tell an interesting story.

is pretty much how I feel about it.

Makes me a bit nervous for future films set in the 'past'!

**BrotherGecko**

I think the prequels establish that in no way is the Senate and the Republic any better than the Empire. Sure they were tolerant of the various species but still horribly corrupt and over ridden but a lawless army of space wizards that did as they see fit.

So really thr Rebel Alliance has never been the good guys just different guys really.

**Manchu**

BrotherGecko wrote:
So really thr Rebel Alliance has never been the good guys just different guys really.

Whew as a long-time SW fan, this is news to me

**BrotherGecko**

Just saying, religious fanatics trying to install an ineffectual aristocratic legislative body that is overtly controlled by a lawless shadow government/army wouldn't be good guys to me. Different guys but not the good guys.

Or are you just being sarcastic because I pointed out nothing new?

**Manchu**

Are you describing the Rebel Alliance? Based on the original trilogy or just R1?

**Elemental**

Saw it, really enjoyed it. For me, it had the right amount of grit to give the action some weight and feeling of consequences, but avoided being the sort of Dark Dekonstruchun that some people on the internet seem to want everything to be.

One thing that occurs to me--I think Bodhi (if that's the right name--the Imperial pilot guy who sets the whole thing in motion) might be the most heroic character in the film, possibly in any Star Wars film. He wasn't chosen by destiny, and he didn't hate the Empire because they'd blown up his planet or killed someone he loved. He had a comfortable, fairly safe life, he was on the winning side. And then he gives it up and risks (and loses) his life because a prisoner had a talk with him and asked him to do the right thing.

**Manchu**

Elemental wrote:
because a prisoner had a talk with him and asked him to do the right thing

Is that what happened? It wasn't shown in the film. IIRC we just know that Galen sent Bodhi. And I guess they had some kind of special connection because Bodhi's last words or nearly last words are something like, "this is for you Galen." But it came off as another "off-screen" thing to me, probably something that happened in a comic book.

**BrotherGecko**

Manchu wrote:
Are you describing the Rebel Alliance? Based on the original trilogy or just R1?

More or less the whole series including R1 and the prequels.

**Manchu**

I don't think the OT portrays the Alliance as anything other than heroic freedom fighters opposing an evil tyranny.

**Alpharius**

Manchu wrote:
I don't think the OT portrays the Alliance as anything other than heroic freedom fighters opposing an evil tyranny.

I don't either, actually.

Is BrotherGecko trying to lay down a "Hot Take" here?

**LunarSol**

It's not THAT surprising she was allowed to speak. She wasn't a total nobody. After all, the whole reason she's even involved is because the Rebellion found her important enough to rescue/kidnap at the beginning of the movie.

Manchu wrote:
(somehow a big plot driver in the third act was radioing the fleet to do what it was already doing?)

They had to send out a broad radio message the fleet to establish a direct point to send the plans to. It was basically a call for a someone to respond with a valid FTP address to send it to.

**Xenomancers**

Manchu wrote:
I don't think the OT portrays the Alliance as anything other than heroic freedom fighters opposing an evil tyranny.

The theme he is talking about is much more prevalent in the I-III. The senate is an inoperable body incapable of doing the right thing (ofc it was under palpatine's complete control). This also reminds me of the scene in ep III where Supreme canceler palpatine was talking to Anakin about how the Jedi and Sith are essentially the same thing. I can see where he is coming from. The Rebellion is not the senate though. The Rebellion is a group of people who oppose the empire because the empire is an evil thing.

**Compel**

I've been a part of the star wars fandom for more than half my life. Over the years I have come across a surprising amount of people who genuinely believe that the Empire are the "Good Guys" and that if the various authors and script writers weren't so rebel biased, they'd show that.

They never seemed to pick up the whole concept of, "the scriptwriters and the authors decide who the Empire are.... Because they're writing the story."

There's strong correlations with these people of this viewpoint and, in the wargaming sphere, those complaining about the PC brigade stopping them from putting swastikas on their Waffen SS Flames of War armies.

**LunarSol**

There's toothless and ineffective and then there's exterminating planets to keep other people from questioning your authority. The Republic had crippling flaws, but calling "neither good guys" is a ridiculous simplification of the color grey.

**Manchu**

Compel wrote:
Over the years I have come across a surprising amount of people who genuinely believe that the Empire are the "Good Guys" and that if the various authors and script writers weren't so rebel biased, they'd show that.

Oh yes I have seen it as well and commented on it several times around here in the past, most recently regarding Thrawn:

Spoiler:

I really liked the portray of Krennic in R1 - up until he didn't just kill Jyn WTF man - because although there was no doubt he was an evil guy he was still pretty interesting, or at least interesting enough to fulfill his role of Sole Competent Villain.

**Compel**

Yup, I think I participated in that thread too (but I still like Thrawn

)

**BrotherGecko**

Manchu wrote:I don't think the OT portrays the Alliance as anything other than heroic freedom fighters opposing an evil tyranny.

Right but there are 5 other movies now, plus hundreds of video games, book, cartoons, comics..etc etc etc. The OT doesn't really give us much on the Empire or the Alliance. Just red/green and good/bad. Hell, this thread is about R1 and what it adds to the story. So if the Rebels don't look so good anymore, it probably just bad writing I guess.

Alpharius wrote:
Manchu wrote:
I don't think the OT portrays the Alliance as anything other than heroic freedom fighters opposing an evil tyranny.

I don't either, actually.

Is BrotherGecko trying to lay down a "Hot Take" here?

Honestly, I have no idea what a "hot take" means.....nevermind Googled. No I do not think describing SW is provocative lol, its a series of mostly watchable space operas that depend on visuals over actually thinking about its plot. Thinking that pointing out how silly the whole series is, isn't provocative lol.

LunarSol wrote:There's toothless and ineffective and then there's exterminating planets to keep other people from questioning your authority. The Republic had crippling flaws, but calling "neither good guys" is a ridiculous simplification of the color grey.

They kill plenty of people in the movies we have to regain their authority. Calling neither good guys is saying exactly what Lucas did to the series. Had we been left with just the OT and non of the expanded universe and movies, you would be hard pressed to argue the alliance is nothing but the goodest of good.

**LunarSol**

Manchu wrote:
Compel wrote:
Over the years I have come across a surprising amount of people who genuinely believe that the Empire are the "Good Guys" and that if the various authors and script writers weren't so rebel biased, they'd show that.
Oh yes I have seen it as well and commented on it several times around here in the past, most recently regarding Thrawn:

Spoiler:

Manchu wrote:
LOL directly murdering children is not the threshold for evildoing. Morality in the Star Wars cinematic experience, especially in the Original Trilogy, is fairly black and white. If you wear a ~~Nazi~~ Imperial uniform, you are a bad guy. EU authors, beginning with Zahn, started to problematize this probably because, as novelists, they wanted fuller, more sympathetic characters. (By contrast, Imperials and their analogs - initially - remained much more starkly and simply evil in the Dark Horse comics.) But it was also something to do with the 90s, a burgeoning love of anti-heroes, because SW novels before Heir to the Empire are content with the moral clarity of the film(s). There is no question whether Piett is "evil" because the movie doesn't trade on those terms; he's a bad guy, and that is all that matters. You need a character like Thrawn to come along before you get to the question of whether Captain So-and-so is really evil deep down, or just a bloke doing his job the best he can. When you look back on the OT and you start dividing up the bad guys between the really evil ones and the ones who ... er, just totally went along and enjoyed all the privileges that being a leader in the Galactic Empire entailed ... wait, I mean, the ones who aren't really and truly evil, then you are already involved in apologetics. This is why I said I "despise" Thrawn - not merely dislike or find irritating (like Rey from Force Awakens).

I really liked the portray of Krennic in R1 - up until he didn't just kill Jyn WTF man - because although there was no doubt he was an evil guy he was still pretty interesting, or at least interesting enough to fulfill his role of Sole Competent Villain.

My problem with that argument is that people will use it to excuse every link in the chain below the very top. I mean, someone will argue with me the guy in the black helmet is just doing what he's told, pulling the lever when ordered and watching the big green light go by. Just some blue collar work. Nothing evil...

**Manchu**

BrotherGecko wrote:
So if the Rebels don't look so good anymore, it probably just bad writing I guess.

It's worse than that. It's a combination of good and terrible writing. R1 wants to tackle a complicated theme. But for whatever reason, it gives up at the end of Act II.

LunarSol wrote:
I mean, someone will argue with me the guy in the black helmet is just doing what he's told, pulling the lever when ordered and watching the big green light go by. Just some blue collar work. Nothing evil...

There is literally an EU (defunct canon) story about how the Death Star gunner ended up sabotaging the destruction of Yavin IV because of moral paralysis.

**LunarSol**

BrotherGecko wrote:

LunarSol wrote:There's toothless and ineffective and then there's exterminating planets to keep other people from questioning your authority. The Republic had crippling flaws, but calling "neither good guys" is a ridiculous simplification of the color grey.

They kill plenty of people in the movies we have to regain their authority. Calling neither good guys is saying exactly what Lucas did to the series. Had we been left with just the OT and non of the expanded universe and movies, you would be hard pressed to argue the alliance is nothing but the goodest of good.

They don't have to be the goodest of good to still be good in the face of the evil they face.

**BrotherGecko**

Manchu wrote:
BrotherGecko wrote:
So if the Rebels don't look so good anymore, it probably just bad writing I guess.
It's worse than that. It's a combination of good and terrible writing. R1 wants to tackle a complicated theme. But for whatever reason, it gives up at the end of Act II.
LunarSol wrote:
I mean, someone will argue with me the guy in the black helmet is just doing what he's told, pulling the lever when ordered and watching the big green light go by. Just some blue collar work. Nothing evil...
There is literally an EU (defunct canon) story about how the Death Star gunner ended up sabotaging the destruction of Yavin IV because of moral paralysis.

I agree to the weird back and forth indecision to the Rebel Alliances writting that gets exasperated by the confused story R1 wanted to tell.

When everybody cheers to the destruction of two stardestroyers in R1 because of TFA and oddly Battlefront 2, I can't help but think of all the people on board those ships that believed they were doing the right thing and have no left thousands of families without.

This is really just my problem with the series as a whole. People can enjoy SW to the fullest, it doesn't bother me lol, I love the video games.

LunarSol wrote:
BrotherGecko wrote:

LunarSol wrote:There's toothless and ineffective and then there's exterminating planets to keep other people from questioning your authority. The Republic had crippling flaws, but calling "neither good guys" is a ridiculous simplification of the color grey.

They kill plenty of people in the movies we have to regain their authority. Calling neither good guys is saying exactly what Lucas did to the series. Had we been left with just the OT and non of the expanded universe and movies, you would be hard pressed to argue the alliance is nothing but the goodest of good.

They don't have to be the goodest of good to still be good in the face of the evil they face.

You are right but nothing is any less than idealized in SW. So while the Rebel Alliance is supposed to be the goodest of good, they obviously are not. Which they puts them in a category of less than good but of course not as bad as the Empire. In other words the Rebels are a upgrade for most of the galaxy but still it is less than ideal. The Alliance has no intention of answeing its own sins.

**LunarSol**

There's a difference between believing you're doing the right thing and actually doing the right thing though. No one sees themselves as the villain after all. Seryu Ubiquitous probably being one of the more entertaining versions of this.