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So the question is pretty simple. Do you prefer the current FnP system where you can save almost anything on a 5+ except for Str. D and instant death attacks. Or did you prefer the 5th edition way where the save was a 4+, but could not save wounds cause by Ap 1 or 2 weapons, Str. D and Instant death attacks?

Myself I preferred the 5th ed rules. It makes more sense to me that people can not just shrug off a plamsa shot or melta gun. 

Like with so many other things, it was better in 5th edition. I hate feel no pain and would much prefer if we went back to being able to deny it with something other than instant death. I hate multiple saves.

I loathe feel no pain in general, is given to more and more units because the level of Dakka in the game is unsustainable. I read of people saying that Terminators should get it. It means that having a 2+/5++ is nothing nowadays.

I would say I prefer the 5th edition one because I just feel the game was better back then. But once again, 5th edition is when the Talented Mr. Ward gave FnP army-wide to the Blood Angels

I preferred when it was something only Death Company had (and maybe some Khorne marine in a WD list, IIRC).

Well - I think invo saves should just be allowed to be taken in succession to armor saves and FNP should go back to 5th edition rules. With the considertion that you can never take more than 2 saves.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Like with so many other things, it was better in 5th edition. I hate feel no pain and would much prefer if we went back to being able to deny it with something other than instant death. I hate multiple saves.

Problem is, if you take away FNP from army like tyranids, they dont have any invulnerable saves, so its all about ignore cover saves... However, there are so many guns now in the meta that ignore cover saves, that its not really good anymore... Especially vs taus ...

Hating multiple saves is an awfully specific thing to loathe.

It is a 5+ roll. It helps a little and isn't overly powerful. Complaining about it is TRULY whining for the sake of whining.

I don’t mind how it is now.

I do think the level of firepower on the table is excessive, and that FNP is being used in places it’s not really appropriate just to help mitigate against that.

But when so many things just flat out ignore armor, and invulns in some places, a different survival mechanic is needed, and FNP fills that role.

I preferred 5th tbh. However as mentioned, theres so much OTT firepower these days, the current version probably actually works for this edition and its meta.
Power creep n all that.

Honestly FNP doesn't bother me as its not really that reliable.

Its only when in conjunction with Eternal warrior and multiple +, +++, ++++ saves that it becomes a massive pain.

Also I REALLY hate the reanimation protocol we have now.

I think it was the right decision to make it a simple FNP type save at the end. but it not being denied by insta death really puts it into extreme frustration mode.

edit How was it in 5th dont remember

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hating multiple saves is an awfully specific thing to loathe.

It is a 5+ roll. It helps a little and isn't overly powerful. Complaining about it is TRULY whining for the sake of whining.

Is not the save itself - is the fact that is started as a mechanic of a specific unit designed to make it super-resilient. But the amount of Dakka/cover negation and FnP/Cover started a vicious cycle that nourishes itself, and is out of control. To this, add reanimation protocol. Decution RP, maybe.

Describe the current situation of the game qualifies as whining? For the sake of whining? Really?

And "It is a 5+ roll" can be a problem too. We roll more and more for more stuff since 3rd. More randumb (CSM), more pre-game rolls. Area damage that lingers. More stuff to keep track to. Slows down games, especially with new players. More and more FnP makes a clunky system clunkier. Better would be a step back for so much weaponry in the game. Rate of fire, strenght and VP of stuff that is not heavy or is on a relentless platform, grav that is the biggest design f***up ever.

For the sake of the discussion, I preferred the 5th edition one - I liked to the flavour of the power weapons negating it. But now the weapons in melee, too are granular in their AP (which, if they did not decide to give AP2 like candies recently, could be even a good thing). This is why I put emphasis on the context of the edition. I preferred the 5th edition one, but the context changed and now would make no sense for flavour reason (maybe - this is very personal and debatable).

Anyway, 5th. Less rolls and more flavour.

I like the way FNP is now, but only in that armor saves are mostly irrelevant now, and FNP is quickly becoming the way to counter act the absurd firepower being used nowadays.

Sure, my Chapter Master has a 2+, but most of the time he'll be taking a 3++ or his Jink save and then a FNP.

The current FNP wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't so easy to get it on units with 2+ and/or 3++. It makes a lot of damage dealing just waiting for your opponent to roll poorly

To be honest here, I miss the 5th edition version. My 5th Edition Death Company were ADHD fueled, and clocked in at 285pts in the 5th edition BA codex.

I only lost one death company in one game, and the next, I lost all of them (nearly tabled by turn 2, IIRC)

One must remember, in 5th edition, Power Swords still ignored all armour saves, and thus also ignored Feel No Pain. As such, I think 5th edition "better save, but more easily ignored" and 7th edition "worse save, but more difficult to ignore" are really very, very close. The main issue I have with current Feel No Pain are the number of Feel No Pain modifiers. Having a 4+ 7th ed Feel No Pain is really, really hard to get through, and 3+ on many platforms is often the same as a 3+ rerollable (of course, if the original save also has a reroll, it becomes even worse!).

So, I voted for 5th, but it's not by a huge amount.

FNP is largely fine IMO, as others have mentioned, it only really gets obnoxious on high T creatures with good armour/invuln. saves alongside it. GMC and either Tau/Eldar MC are the usual suspects for this particular issue because short of D or force weapons there's no way to negate it unlike on infantry models who are typically T4 or 5 at the most who are much more vulnerable to S8 blast templates or things like power fists. Plus it is almost mandatory for a lot of units that aren't OP and are barely hanging on like Ork Boyz who need Painboyz to follow them around just to survive today's heavy dakka meta.

FNP is a weirdly balanced skill. It's super powerful on those that already have high saves and toughness, but on the Skitarii that all run 4+ saves and T3, it's a footnote at best. When S6 negates it, it's not that great.

That said, I don't feel it's ever stupidly powerful.

5-th ed fnp would be cool as there's not nearly enough ap2 rolling around. We need more of that stuff.

I think a 5+ FnP is fine. I think it becomes a problem with the 5+ FnP with it's lack of restrictions starts getting reduced to a 4+ and better.

alex0911 wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Like with so many other things, it was better in 5th edition. I hate feel no pain and would much prefer if we went back to being able to deny it with something other than instant death. I hate multiple saves.

Problem is, if you take away FNP from army like tyranids, they dont have any invulnerable saves, so its all about ignore cover saves... However, there are so many guns now in the meta that ignore cover saves, that its not really good anymore... Especially vs taus ...

Thinking back to 5th, there was hardly any Ignore Cover in comparison to what there is now. At least, for AP2/1 weapons. Grav certainly wasn't around.

Would prefer a 4+ save. Nothing more frustrating than thinking a model as died, only to see the lolnope roll of FnP. Would make Gargantuans easier to deal with at least.

FNP should cease to exist and be replaced as either a toughness modifier ot armour / invuln save modifier.

Cut the dice saves down.

I feel like it how it is now but also liked in in 5th because it was less common, but a better save at 4+

it also made sense that a ork biker boy getting hit with an anti tank weapons who should be a green puddle rather than now didn't feel the lascannon that exploded him so he is fine.

Ideally I would like to see more of a variation for FNP where the things that usually had fnp get a better fnp back to 4+ (ork painboy and apothicaryies etc. but then things like gmc get 5+ or even 6+ as they could possibly take an anti tank weapon and be hit in a non crucial spot .

I prefer there not to be a Ward save mechanic in 40K. Take a save. If you fail it, you lose a wound. Get rid of FnP as a re-roll mechanic. Ditto for Rez Protocols.

Aaaaand then I have to ask:
What's wrong with the Ward save?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Aaaaand then I have to ask:
What's wrong with the Ward save?

It's rolling dice for rolling dice's sake. A save is a save. Roll once and be done with it.

 the_Armyman wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Aaaaand then I have to ask:
What's wrong with the Ward save?

It's rolling dice for rolling dice's sake. A save is a save. Roll once and be done with it.

This is not even remotely true. 40k needs to be able to access more probability space, not less.

5th Edition had no Hull points if I remember correctly? I miss those days. Maybe it was 4th that had no hull points? I was pretty sure it was 5th that was the last edition to not have hull points.

 Xerics wrote:
5th Edition had no Hull points if I remember correctly? I miss those days. Maybe it was 4th that had no hull points? I was pretty sure it was 5th that was the last edition to not have hull points.

It was 5th, and it was nice to see walkers on relatively equal footing compared to MC at the time for the most part, the main issue being that while tanks like LR were actually hard to kill, it also made rhinos and chimeras ridiculously hard to kill, stunlocking aside.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
5th Edition had no Hull points if I remember correctly? I miss those days. Maybe it was 4th that had no hull points? I was pretty sure it was 5th that was the last edition to not have hull points.

It was 5th, and it was nice to see walkers on relatively equal footing compared to MC at the time for the most part, the main issue being that while tanks like LR were actually hard to kill, it also made rhinos and chimeras ridiculously hard to kill, stunlocking aside.

Personally I think all vehicles should get 2x the amount of hull points they currently have without upping their price. I think with new hull points they would be almost on par in most cases.

I think you'd have to tone down the shooting in this game significantly before you took any look at revising defensive abilities like FNP. There's far too much AP1/2/3, rending, vehicle-armor-ignoring, toughness-ignoring, cover-ignoring, multi-shot/big template gunnery going on otherwise.

alex0911 wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Like with so many other things, it was better in 5th edition. I hate feel no pain and would much prefer if we went back to being able to deny it with something other than instant death. I hate multiple saves.

Problem is, if you take away FNP from army like tyranids, they dont have any invulnerable saves, so its all about ignore cover saves... However, there are so many guns now in the meta that ignore cover saves, that its not really good anymore... Especially vs taus ...

Remember that Tau and Eldar are the ones with all those weapons.

Feel no Pain would be fine in either case, but it would be better if we gave it to less units and toned down the ridiculous gak of the current meta